183 réponses à ce sujet

[Vasarkian]

Edhriano wrote...

Hmm let me put it this way.

I see a cheese burger seller.
I order cheese burger.
I pay good money for cheese burger.
I got the burger but no cheese.
I ask where is the cheese?
The seller said available as DLC,

me :

Also illegal and they can be imprisoned for it.

[Il Divo]

InvincibleHero wrote...

There are three unique playthroughs and someone stated BW claimed 16 variations. So how many more should they put in to account for all possibilities given BW determines what is possible ending to their game? You may want something but that doesn't mean you will get it.

That's certainly not going to stop anyone from trying.

That's one issue with everyone trying to get us to stop. "In life, you don't always get what you want". By that logic, we shouldn't try for anything.

[InvincibleHero]

MedhiaNox wrote...

I'll apologize for not reading your post - but the answer is really simple. They're entitled to the same things everyone else is... which is nothing at all.

You are either fortunate enough to receive - you worked to obtain - or were filth enough to take.

Not a single thing is "deserved" as if there is some cosmic checks and balances weighing your material worth.

Wasn't meant to be a philosophical discussion. Simple is what can be reasonably expected when you pay money for a game made by a company such as BW. What is reasonable for fans to desire redress on and these sorts of things.

Anyone with the money can obtain ME3 so fortunate doesn't have anything to do with it. It is there for anyone that wants it.

You deserve a working product for your money with bugs infrequent and minor as possible. They also need to deliver on explicit promises made such as free dlc for preorder.

[Wise Men]

AJRimmsey wrote...

Wise Men wrote...

AJRimmsey wrote...

game buyers are entitled to whatever they pay for.

if they buy a game they are entitled to a game
if they dont like the game then they are then entitled to ebay it.

iff however they think they are entitled to then demand the games changed to cater for them they are simply dilusional

they are also entitled to create thier own game catered to thier own tastes.
but good luck selling it.
as they will fast find they are a very small minority facing others demanding they change that game to the others demands.

Well stated. I really don't know where gamers get this warped sense of entitlement. In fact, it seems that we are the only consumer body with it. It's quite unreasonsable.

It seems to me, In all other forms of media or entertainment, It's quite simple, either a consumer decides to buy a product or not. But gamers seem to be the only ones who continue to buy said product but then complain about how it was packaged. It's doesn't make much sense to me.

I say, we need to lose this warped sense of entitlement. The developer has a product. We get to decide to purchase the product or not. We also get to influence the direction and some areas of development, to a degree. We don't get to decide every facet of how it's developed. And I feel we should be ok with that. Seriously, who DEMANDS that a company rewrite their body of work? It reminds me of the movie "Misery". (and that's pretty sad).

in all fairness i also have to point out there is a situation where i am asked to change a body of work to cater to someone elses ideals..

but when that happens i am paid to do it.
which is fair,if i want the money i will change it.

but if someone orders me to do it for free and is in front of me they tend to get punched.
which i also think is fair :innocent:

I see your point here.  You are saying that it is fair that consumers ask, not demand for changes.  And it is the creator's choice to either accomodate their requests or not.  Very interesting point. 

I think our problem is the way that we request the changes.  We don't seem to be respectfully aksing.  We seem to be bashing, and stomping our feet, and demanding.  Some of us are even going to different sites to post negative reviews in an effort to harm the game developers.  That's pretty immature. 

So, while I see your point and It's a valid point.  I just wish we knew how to criticize without being so extreme.

Modifié par Wise Men, 13 mars 2012 - 05:26 .

[InvincibleHero]

Wise Men wrote...


I really don't know where gamers get this warped sense of entitlement. In fact, it seems that we are the only consumer body with it. It's quite unreasonsable.

It seems to me, In all other forms of media or entertainment, It's quite simple, either a consumer decides to buy a product or not. But gamers seem to be the only ones who continue to buy said product but then complain about how it was packaged. It's doesn't make much sense to me.

I say, we need to lose this warped sense of entitlement. The developer has a product. We get to decide to purchase the product or not. We also get to influence the direction and some areas of development, to a degree. We don't get to decide every facet of how it's developed. And I feel we should be ok with that. Seriously, who DEMANDS that a company rewrite their body of work? It reminds me of the movie "Misery". (and that's pretty sad).

You live up to your user name in this topic.  I agree with everything as written. I think it may hurt their cause in the long run of making more and larger demands. As I stated BW may tune them out entirely.

[Cyberfrog81]

Indeed, unfortunately we aren't entitled to different, better (as in making sense and taking decisions and assets into account, not as in happier) endings.

But it would be nice. And the game(s) deserved it. It deserved a final mission at least on par with ME2's suicide mission. And maybe my imagination is failing me, but I can't imagine the ME3 devs being satisfied with anything less either.

[Il Divo]

Wise Men wrote...

I see your point here.  You are saying that it is fair that consumers ask, not demand for changes.  And it is the creater's choice to either accomodate their requests or not.  Very interesting point.

That is ultimately how the market works.

[Il Divo]

wastelander75 wrote...

I see it as investors being upset at the less than stellar product they put their money into. For some of us (raises hand), I've bought all 3 games, comic books, book books, action figures, limited edition lithographs, DLC, the works. I've invested in BioWare's continued future. Roughly 200+ dollars for the games alone, on top of the merch, with money I literally bled for (really, I gave blood to make sure I had enough money to afford to preorder a copy of ME3), waited patiently for, invested every nickle and dime to my name for some of these items, in the hopes that I'd see all of this pay off when the series ended.

So imagine my surprise when I basically get this big middle finger "F You" ending. As an investor in BioWare's products, in the games, the books, etc, how do you think I should feel? Happy that it's all said and done, even though I don't think the final product lives up to previous examples, nor does it for a lot of other people?

I mean, for example, what if you go out and buy the new Five Finger Death Punch CD expecting to have your ears bleed from all the near-death metal extravaganza only to pop it in and hear them singing Gospel tunes? You'd be upset correct? That's what a lot of people are right now. Because they invested in BioWare's products, in its continued success, in its very existence as a developer.

So when they give me shoddy work and expect me to like it, forgive me if I don't feel just a little entitled to say "No."

That is the other factor. Dissatisfied with a movie ending? I lost ten bucks (maybe twenty) from the experience. Dissatisfied witha game ending? The concluding act of a three part trilogy? + dlc? Well, that does break the $200 gap.

[byzantine horse]

Il Divo wrote...

Wise Men wrote...

I see your point here.  You are saying that it is fair that consumers ask, not demand for changes.  And it is the creater's choice to either accomodate their requests or not.  Very interesting point.

That is ultimately how the market works.

Exactly. If a company doesn't meet the features that you ask for then you have every right to move your interest elsewhere. If you continue standing outside in the rain hoping for a change then it is your own fault if you get wet.

And please, you guys aren't investors, you are consumers. Big difference.

Modifié par byzantine horse, 13 mars 2012 - 05:28 .

[kbct]

Wise Men wrote...

I see your point here.  You are saying that it is fair that consumers ask, not demand for changes.  And it is the creater's choice to either accomodate their requests or not.  Very interesting point.

Yes, most of us are asking for a change to the ending. We don't demand them or feel entitled to them.

[Wise Men]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Wise Men wrote...


I really don't know where gamers get this warped sense of entitlement. In fact, it seems that we are the only consumer body with it. It's quite unreasonsable.

It seems to me, In all other forms of media or entertainment, It's quite simple, either a consumer decides to buy a product or not. But gamers seem to be the only ones who continue to buy said product but then complain about how it was packaged. It's doesn't make much sense to me.

I say, we need to lose this warped sense of entitlement. The developer has a product. We get to decide to purchase the product or not. We also get to influence the direction and some areas of development, to a degree. We don't get to decide every facet of how it's developed. And I feel we should be ok with that. Seriously, who DEMANDS that a company rewrite their body of work? It reminds me of the movie "Misery". (and that's pretty sad).

You live up to your user name in this topic.  I agree with everything as written. I think it may hurt their cause in the long run of making more and larger demands. As I stated BW may tune them out entirely.

Thanks for the love .  I just wish that we were more respectful when we criticize.  Not so extreme and immature.  I certainly see no problem with stating opinions, but sometimes we take it too far. 

[Wise Men]

Vasarkian wrote...

Edhriano wrote...

Hmm let me put it this way.

I see a cheese burger seller.
I order cheese burger.
I pay good money for cheese burger.
I got the burger but no cheese.
I ask where is the cheese?
The seller said available as DLC,

me :

Also illegal and they can be imprisoned for it.

I think what's going on here is more like:

I see a cheese burger seller
I order a cheese burger
I pay good money for a cheese burger
I get a cheeseburger
The seller offers me extra toppings(DLC), or even extra slices of cheese for a price to enhance the flavor and enjoyment of said cheeseburger.
I complain and tell them that they just milked me for all of my cash and they are forcing me to buy the additional toppings.  They already had the additional toppings in the storage bin, waiting for me.  Therefore, they owe me a "complete" cheese burger.

[InvincibleHero]

AnttiV wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
....
You have to ask the opposite if you got the ending you wanted and the rest of the game was bad would that elevate the game to game of the year? Ummm no obviously.
...

The generalizing. You can't know all people. I, for example, am part of those people who would think that a very good ending does indeed elevate the game to a better status. There are multiple games in history that I have played, not liked (at all, in some cases) but the memories from them are that they were very good games because the ending was awesome/beautiful/epic/just generally well written and fitting.

Not exactly that, but there is a whole game series that I have played solely for the characters/story even though in game mechanics I absolutely hate them. I hate to play games like those, but he story/characters/ending makes it worthwhile to drag myself through the mechanical gameplay.

To those who know:
"At last, the masks had fallen away. The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift given to me; more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me; the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion: hope."

Really as I state take the opposite which means the gameplay will be really horrific yet have a great ending. You think such a game would have potential? I am talking all the hate heaped on the endings would be heaped on the gameplay. You'd quit within ten minutes and none would blame you. Many bad stories have fitting ending. In general I don't think it elevates anything. A good work has to be good throughout and lacking in most of the book/movie/game etc cannot be recouped in the end. Most people are going to cut their loses and maybe bemoan the wasted money/opportunity.

What is better status? Bad to average maybe not bad to classic great 90% game.

[Dragoonlordz]

What are they entitled to? Well in relation to after buying something.. What is advertised, no more and no less. Product offered is product bought. In case of not buying then entitled to nothing. In case of DLC same applies as you are only entitled to what they said/advertised you are paying for. If do not like what they offer or the terms of the deal then don't buy it.

A fan is not entitled to anything, he or she is not even a customer at that point until money is handed over for the actual product (not past products) he or she is just a potential customer and how a developer or company wishes to entice those potentials is up to the company not fans or potential customers. There is distinction to be made between "expected" and "entitled" however but even if you expect anything that does not mean they have to make it how you wish.

That's how I see it and how I think it should remain. Any company or developer should not be held to ransom or threats just because a potential customer or fan is making demands, when they cross the line into being an actual customer and paid for the product then feedback and suggestions are good but they are not entitled to anything more than when/if bought the product offered/advertised, what was advertised they got. With story elements though they are subject to change and that is right and up to the developer and company even if they say might or will contain different story (such as game endings and how many).

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 13 mars 2012 - 05:52 .

[MedhiaNox]

@InvincibleHero: I believe you are under several misconceptions about what you are entitled to - I believe it will lead you to disappointment in this endeavor - and in many future endeavors in the future.

This is just my opinion.

[G3rman]

I'll stop my complaining when they fix the Normandy epilogue piece and explain the teleporting teammates.

Plot holes ARE NOT A FINISHED PRODUCT.

Modifié par G3rman, 13 mars 2012 - 06:01 .

[Edhriano]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

What are they entitled to? Well in relation to after buying something.. What is advertised, no more and no less. Product offered is product bought.

This.

Now sit back and try to remember all the commercial, interview etc about me3.

In case forgotten fell free to search the forum and youtube and even facebook.
it should be plenty of those, assuming it haven't been delete yet.

Now see me3 now and tell me it is absolutely as advertised and as offered.

Modifié par Edhriano, 13 mars 2012 - 06:07 .

[leapingmonkeys]

The initial post is nonsense.

This is about giving your customers what they want.  It is business 101.  A sandwhich shop can claim that they "own" their sandwhichs and that no one can tell them what should go into them.  But bottom line, if most people don't like how your sandwhich tastes, you will go out of business.

None of this reaction should have been a surprise to Bioware.  the first two games worked because the players could identify with the main character, with the plot, with the interaction of the main character and the team mates - even to the point of having romantic options.  Everyone is going to want there to be some path that leads to a happy ending.  No one should be surprised that when the third game takes everything that one was building towards in the first two games and throws it out the window for a contrived, non-sensical conclusion which denies any sort of happy ending for the main character that players would feel let down.

Bioware knew the basis for the appeal of their games.  Heck, the promotions for ME3 played directly into those themes (continuity, more interaction with the team mates, more romance options, etc).  They knew why people played these games - and they ignored what they knew the players wanted.

Why did they do this?  Who knows.  No point guessing.  What is clear is that they failed to meet the expectations and desires of their customers, and unless they correct that they will lose business.

[AudioCGlive]

Gamers think they are entitled to a whole lot of things, the truth is, they are not.

You are entitled to a fuctioning product. IE; It runs, its playable, its features work.

And thats it.

No really, thats it.

Your options are to buy it, or not, period. (seriously, thats what it is, there is no recourse for anything else, period.)

To all the doomsayers trying to put this game (ME3) as "it will cost them customers", sorry to tell you, but ME3 is Biowares fastest selling game to date, and is on its way to being its best selling title ever. (and this is right after DA2, where, yup, you guessed it, the EXACT same thing was said....)

I dunno where the hate is coming from for ME3, personally I rate it as the best game to come out this year by FAR, but hey, thats just me ;p.

[Dragoonlordz]

Edhriano wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

What are they entitled to? Well in relation to after buying something.. What is advertised, no more and no less. Product offered is product bought.

This.

Now sit back and try to remember all the commercial, interview etc about me3.

In case forgotten fell free to search the forum and youtube and even facebook.
it should be plenty of those, assuming it haven't been delete yet.

Now see me3 now and tell me it is absolutely as advertised and as offered.

The only thing that matters as far as advertised goes is what is written on the box and secondly what is written on the store product page that lists the product for sale (of which the store is responsible for). What devs say on this forum is not applicable in this instance and while may rub people the wrong way when they change something it is not the in same class as what I just mentioned. They are free to change story elements as they see fit. As long as you can start the game, play the game and reach the end it is a finished product. The only elements that matter are, if box or store says comes with manual and other physical content, the offered game content meaning does it have multiplayer in game if says has it on box and such things like that game functions vs gameplay such as story (gameplay is subject to change at their will).

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 13 mars 2012 - 06:48 .

[MerchantGOL]

You are not entitled to a new ending if you don't like the old one

If you don't like the way a movie ends would this type of conduct be appropriate? no

[Volus Warlord]

DuckSoup wrote...

Girlfriends.

They're people too, you know.

I don't believe it.