873 réponses à ce sujet

[Larkas Galanodel]

Dridengx wrote...

Larkas Galanodel wrote...
Really, I can't decide if this person is a troll, delusional or simply an attention ****.

Well, don't hurt yourself but if you can think for a second, ask yourself does it matter? If you do not share the same opinion you shouldn't have to worry about their intentions anyway

Hmmm, usually I'd like to disagree, seeing that sometimes people just push their opinion around to prove someone else is wrong, even if that opinion has nothing to do with what they really think. Likewise, sometimes it's good to find out why someone is saying something you disagree with, to see if your own opinions hold under a different point of view.

But right now, I'll just agree with you and forget I ever saw this thread.

[HenchxNarf]

aliengmr1 wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

pomrink wrote...

Dont reply to this is you disagree. lets let it die

So it's okay that your side makes a heckton of threads a day explaining the same thing over and over. But once someone posts a pro-ending thread you act like this.

And people tell me I 'm wrong when I say the movement is immature. This proves me right, and anyone else trolling this thread proves me right.

As for the OP, sign me up. I'm with you all the way. And that was very nicely written out.

Problem is you stand for nothing except a counter to retake. Point of fact, you want the fanbase of all game not to have a voice. Go ahead, preach how games are Art and that you have no right to an opinion. Irony is that if you believe this you shouldn't be posting.

Actually, I stand for them not to give the lot of you a damn thing. I stand for Bioware not changing something because a minority of the fans whine about not liking something. I stand for the ones who like the ending and gets needlessly trolled and flamed right off the boards for having an opinion other than yours.

You have no right to demand them change it, no. And I will stick by that.

[KTheAlchemist]

I'm sorry, but this entire thing simply feels like arguing for the sake of arguing. If there is DLC which adds to or creates the possibility of new endings, and you don't care for it...

Don't. Install. The DLC.

It's really just that easy. The rest your post is just a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between player and developer on games...they are art, yes, but a fundamentally different sort of art.

And the real bottom line here is that Bioware lied to us. They sold us an ending experience that they apparently had no intention to provide. You can't hide that behind "artistic integrity".

Modifié par KTheAlchemist, 22 mars 2012 - 01:05 .

[CavScout]

JasonC Shepard wrote...

nhsknudsen wrote...

CavScout wrote...

JasonC Shepard wrote...
Now I have a question about the Original Post, if you would like to answer it.
Why is Mass Effect 3 "art"?

The same reason books and movies are.

You don't interact with books and movies altering different rather important story lines.

CavScout does have a good point, however.  Art is visual media.  Mass Effect 3 is visual media.
When talking about artistic integrity, I have another question.
Why defend the game's artistic integrity when it already degrades itself by asking us to take part in more gameplay and buy more DLC?

You're presuming an artist advertising his art is no longer an artist. It is simply a false premise. Nothing wrong with an artist promoting their art.

Edit to add: Art is not limited to the visual medium... Beethoven would have an issue with that.

Modifié par CavScout, 22 mars 2012 - 01:03 .

[Quietness]

Tyrzun wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

Okay, so the OP responded with everybody that pat him in the back, but to none of the people questioning his arguments. I guess that tells me all I need to know.

When I take part in a discussion I try to be civil and eloquent. I apologize, but at the moment I have Retake members bashing me and then flooding my inbox with spam and threats. I will try to answer your questions tonight when I'm home from work.

Bear with me, Thank you.

If they are threatening you report them.  Seriously.  That's unacceptable.

As annoying as im finding you to be, im with this guy ^. Threats on either side of the board should not be tolerated.

[Silpheed58]

Can a buisness allow artistic integrity to cause it to go out of buisness is the real question.  It's risky to take too much of a stand against those that pay you.  

[Tyrzun]

III Mav III wrote...

There are some seriously hypocritical people here...whenever someone tries to support the ending in our retake thread they are shot down, they have poll stats rammed down there throat and told to go away, now the people who love the ending make a thread and we have people belittling there opinion it is a disgrace...

Our opinion that the endings suck is not THE opinion it is A opinion, let the people who love the ending have there thread, leave them alone and at least we can get a balanced opinion in this forum cos god help us that we drown them out at the moment...

Liking the endings is not the point.  It never has been.  it's a common tactic to spin the topic into a defensible topic, when you are on an undefendable side.

Don't buy into the trick of the OP.

The issue is the game was advertised as one thing with specific features and endings and they delivered something else.

I LIKE the incomplete ending, but it's not forgivable that it is incomplete.  Getting gamers to choose indoctrination with blue and green is funny and I applaud Bioware for how funny that is.  As I said though, not delivering what was advertised is again not defendable.  No ethically or any other way.

Modifié par Tyrzun, 22 mars 2012 - 01:05 .

[RiouHotaru]

Mr Indivisible wrote...

Two things I find amusing about the pro-ending crowd:

1. They don't want us to have additional endings, at worst more variety to the endings (and at best, a whole new chapter!) means more re-playability, and potentially extra content.

2. They defend artistic integrity in a medium that is purely interactive, TV is not, Paintings are not, Books are not. Games are a fully interactive experience, start to finish, and as such involve the end user (note its called user) in its world and creative process. Why shouldn't we have input? (Even non-interactive mediums have input from the public, seriously here guys)

I won't say anything about the second point, but in the first point, it's that the endings as is?  Are fine.  I'd prefer to see more CONTEXT.  To see an explaination for what takes place.  I mean, the idea of the Catalyst would likely be far more palatable if there was more background information.

But there's no reason to completely rewrite the ending.

[The Night Mammoth]

Dridengx wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

DarthSyphilis59 wrote...

created 8 days ago, and less than 200 posts. Welcome to the real minority.

Except that Bioware called you guys the very vocal minority.

Welcome to reality.

Apparently forum posting equals sales don't you know that? who cares if you sold 5 million copies.. if 300 people are on your forums they are the majority!

It's getting to the point where some people actually need to take a step back and google a few things. 

You know, like, the basic principles of statistics, how to obtain them, and their analysis.

The IGN poll is basically the best indicator of just how many people want additional content. 

Regardless, Bioware have alienated the most important part of their player base, the forums, let alone the damn poll, are indicative enough of that. 

[Turtlicious]

Turtlicious wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

Okay, so the OP responded with everybody that pat him in the back, but to none of the people questioning his arguments. I guess that tells me all I need to know.

When I take part in a discussion I try to be civil and eloquent. I apologize, but at the moment I have Retake members bashing me and then flooding my inbox with spam and threats. I will try to answer your questions tonight when I'm home from work.

Bear with me, Thank you.

MintyCool, I'd like to give you a platform for you to speak your message, I sent you a PM about a podcast done on the Retake Mass Effect Movement, respond at your leisure.

Quoted for visibility, hope hat having Retake Mass Effect in PM title does not make you think to overlook it.

Either way, hopefully awaiting your reply.

[DarkSpider88]

Tyrzun wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

Okay, so the OP responded with everybody that pat him in the back, but to none of the people questioning his arguments. I guess that tells me all I need to know.

When I take part in a discussion I try to be civil and eloquent. I apologize, but at the moment I have Retake members bashing me and then flooding my inbox with spam and threats. I will try to answer your questions tonight when I'm home from work.

Bear with me, Thank you.

If they are threatening you report them.  Seriously.  That's unacceptable.

I really hope no one is threatening you, that is taking it way too far. Also I did send you PM asking you a question about part of your thread here, it is not hostile.

[Eain]

JasonTan87 wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

Needing to know a detailed resolution of what happens to everyone in the galaxy only dilutes the escapist reality the writers created.  

You contradict yourself here. 

A detailed resolution is required to sustain the escapist reality.  The lack of a detailed resolution breaks the suspension of disbelief, causing the narrative (and thus the escapist reality) to fail.

This contradiction also consequently causes the remainder of your arguement to fail.

The OP is apparently also a fan of the Spacekid's contradictory logic.

So I guess you just have to enjoy contradictory logic and poorly executed philosophy to like the ending. As an actual student of philosophy familiar with probably more philosophers than most people on this forum combined I thought the ending was a contrived pile of hogus capable of looking intellectually sophisticated only to the most basic of laymen.

The synthetic vs organic struggle is a wonderfully interesting concept that has never been so abysmally explored as in Mass Effect. The potential for far, far more was here, but it's been squandered. Too bad.

[Adanu]

FataliTensei wrote...

I understand wanting support if you liked the endings but the OP is insulting, rude and frankly off on alot of points. I'm sorry honey but you don't put an ad for DLC at the end of 'art'.

Welcome to how it feels with your lynch mobs on the forum. You people have trolled and insulted and threatened and belittled for WEEKS without any real moderation.

The second I saw this thread I knew all the dislikers would pounce and go on an insulting spree. Showing your true colors is sad.

[CavScout]

KTheAlchemist wrote...

I'm sorry, but this entire thing simply feels like arguing for the sake of arguing. If there is DLC which adds to or creates the possibility of new endings, and you don't care for it...

Don't. Install. The DLC.

It's really just that easy.

Let test that premise: If you don't like the games endings and you don't care for them...
Don't. Install. The Game.

Was it really just that easy?

[pomrink]

Skyblade012 wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

Why We Feel the Ending Works:

1. Shepard, war torn and exhausted, leaped into the crucibles energy source sacrificing his life to intertwine existences between synthetics and organics.

A few hours ago, this is how my tale ended after five years of Mass Effect; and I was quite satisfied with the ending.

 
How is that a point explaining why the endings "work"?  That's just a description of one of them.

2. The writing team behind Mass Effect 3 was able to elevate the narrative premise by weaving a philosophical debate about the relationship between organic and synthetic coexistence. The entire story throughout the third addition is laced with the ideas of life, harmony, and self preservation.

More than ever, the story has morphed into a game about big themes and big ideas.

Just some of the thoughts explored throughout this game...

EDI and free will, Synthetic dominance, Lineage, Genophage, Causality, Geth/quarian conflict, Determinism, Legacy - Miranda's father, Synchronicity and Kaiden, False Theology-Asari Prothean Gods, personal fulfillment, etc.

Compared to the previous installments that may have skimmed over some of these topics, all the philosophical and sociological debates/conflicts in this iteration have the main goal of bolstering the main theme of Mass Effect 3,

The existence of The Creators vs. The Created.

Completely wrong.  There was no "philosophical debate".  You were presented with a philosophical statement, and FORCED to accept it as fact.  The Created always fight the Creators.  Period.  There is no debate, because there is no arguing with it.

The series has brought up philosophy before, and actually let the players think about it and decide what is true on their own.  Here, there is no option.

3. Two camps are formed because of this instance. The story the writers wish to tell, and the fans who feel entitled to observe the story they themselves envisioned.

The writers, it seems, realized the message that they wanted people to take from this third installment. This had the team shifting the narrative focus to a more elevated dynamic.

The coexistence of Synthetics vs. Organics.

Which is a radical thematic shift that doesn't fit the rest of the story, completing ignores the parts of the game that would have an impact on such an "elevated dynamic", and, again, allows for no exploration or choice.

4. To this end, Mass Effect 3 succeeds in weaving a narrative from beginning to end. To say otherwise is disingenuous.

Philosophical themes trounce the Neanderthal-dopamine induced urges people wish to see in this addition. Especially in the end game where this theme becomes the stories main focal point.

Honestly is a cameo appearance from Wrex for the 50th time really going to add anything to the finality of this story? No.

None of the ending themes tied to the rest of the game's themes, so it was not a solid narrative.

We like philosophy in Mass Effect.  People LOVED the rewrite/destroy question about the geth in ME2.  Why?  Because we got to consider the philosophy on our own.  We got to develop and act on our own thoughts on the philosophy.  Not simply be told "this is true, live with it".

5. Unfortunately I find a Star Wars Syndrome happening with this series. A fan base digesting every bit of corn fructose they can gulp down. Needing everything to be spelled out; desperate to know every last bit of information.

Why must one need to see Tali's face? Why do we need to know a detailed history of the Protheans? How come we need to see the Rachni and Krogan attack the enemy? Isn't the struggle of loss and war already inferred multiple times throughout the story? The focus of the end game is obviously being developed on a much deeper/different theme.

Midichlorians anyone? You do not need to know how exactly the force works...

This desperate need to dig up plot holes and inconsistencies from the hard core is entirely unhealthy for the series and its fans. All stories have inconsistencies, stories you tell to your friends are punched up exaggerations of what really happened. Your Facebook account is not a mirror image of the life you lead, but the life you wish you lived.

You had the chance to say goodbye to the entire main cast in one way or another. Multiple times is it mentioned/inferred that all races are about to battle the Reapers.

Needing to know a detailed resolution of what happens to everyone in the galaxy only dilutes the escapist reality the writers created.

Some things are better left to the imagination. Less is more and allowing the mind to explore possibilities is one of the great strengths of human thought.

Which is precisely why people are wondering why they explained the Reaper's motives, when they were supposed to be "beyond our understanding".

Certain things need to be explained, and others should be left alone, yes.  BioWare just got the two completely switched.

6. In the end, it would seem the Bioware writing team effectively succeeded in what they wanted to say in the Mass Effect saga. This is something I can respect. Instead of appeasing to the vocal mob; they finished the story on their own terms.

Mass Effect became a tale about cultural synthesis. The Mass Effect team was finally able to find this series a voice. Knowing this, makes me content that I have finished this series in its entirety; in the way it was meant to be seen.

And I enjoyed every minute of it.

Mass Effect as a story was thematically about the unification of diverse groups to face a single goal.  From your own team, to eventually entire cultures.  It was about balancing strengths versus weaknesses.  About the interplay between cultures, how they clash, and how to convince and coerce them to work together.

The ending (or, rather, the one ending you seem to think synthesis is the only one) is about removal of the differences completely.  Homogenization rather than unity.  Destroying what makes us unique and interesting, rather than working to find out how to integrate the differences.

Direct contrast to the rest of the games' themes.


CHECKMATE

[The Night Mammoth]

HenchxNarf wrote...

aliengmr1 wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

pomrink wrote...

Dont reply to this is you disagree. lets let it die

So it's okay that your side makes a heckton of threads a day explaining the same thing over and over. But once someone posts a pro-ending thread you act like this.

And people tell me I 'm wrong when I say the movement is immature. This proves me right, and anyone else trolling this thread proves me right.

As for the OP, sign me up. I'm with you all the way. And that was very nicely written out.

Problem is you stand for nothing except a counter to retake. Point of fact, you want the fanbase of all game not to have a voice. Go ahead, preach how games are Art and that you have no right to an opinion. Irony is that if you believe this you shouldn't be posting.

Actually, I stand for them not to give the lot of you a damn thing. I stand for Bioware not changing something because a minority of the fans whine about not liking something. I stand for the ones who like the ending and gets needlessly trolled and flamed right off the boards for having an opinion other than yours.

You have no right to demand them change it, no. And I will stick by that.

Consumer's rights be damned, you don't deserve choice! You're a minority, the IGN poll says so!

Question, what does that make the Pro-ending people then? A stupid small minority? 

[III Mav III]

Tyrzun wrote...

III Mav III wrote...

There are some seriously hypocritical people here...whenever someone tries to support the ending in our retake thread they are shot down, they have poll stats rammed down there throat and told to go away, now the people who love the ending make a thread and we have people belittling there opinion it is a disgrace...

Our opinion that the endings suck is not THE opinion it is A opinion, let the people who love the ending have there thread, leave them alone and at least we can get a balanced opinion in this forum cos god help us that we drown them out at the moment...

Liking the endings is not the point.  It never has been.  it's a common tactic to spin the topic into a defensible topic, when you are on an undefendable side.

Don't buy into the trick of the OP.

The issue is the game was advertised as one thing with specific features and endings and they delivered something else.

I LIKE the incomplete ending, but it's not forgivable that it is incomplete. 

I'll put my hands up and admit i'm stupid if i have too but i have no idea what you just said...all i know is we shouldn't be in here disagreeing with them...they have the right to discuss there support all they want in here, where else are they going to do it?

[pomrink]

CavScout wrote...

KTheAlchemist wrote...

I'm sorry, but this entire thing simply feels like arguing for the sake of arguing. If there is DLC which adds to or creates the possibility of new endings, and you don't care for it...

Don't. Install. The DLC.

It's really just that easy.

Let test that premise: If you don't like the games endings and you don't care for them...
Don't. Install. The Game.

Was it really just that easy?

That argument is invalid. The game was already purchased.

[JasonC Shepard]

CavScout wrote...

JasonC Shepard wrote...

nhsknudsen wrote...

CavScout wrote...

JasonC Shepard wrote...
Now I have a question about the Original Post, if you would like to answer it.
Why is Mass Effect 3 "art"?

The same reason books and movies are.

You don't interact with books and movies altering different rather important story lines.

CavScout does have a good point, however.  Art is visual media.  Mass Effect 3 is visual media.
When talking about artistic integrity, I have another question.
Why defend the game's artistic integrity when it already degrades itself by asking us to take part in more gameplay and buy more DLC?

You're presuming an artist advertising his art is no longer an artist. It is simply a false premise. Nothing wrong with an artist promoting their art.

Edit to add: Art is not limited to the visual medium... Beethoven would have an issue with that.

I'm not saying he/she is no longer an artist.  I'm just saying why defend their integrity if they degrade it on their own?
EDIT:  I'm sorry, I meant to say that visual media was one of the forms of art.

Modifié par JasonC Shepard, 22 mars 2012 - 01:07 .

[Ariaya]

Some opinions:

The Mass Effect games are not linear. They are interactive. They have always promoted the value of choice. The Mass Effect series has always been known for its rich universe and consistent storytelling.

The Mass Effect 3 "endings" do not parallel the rest of the series either in tone, quality or diversity of choice.

The Mass Effect games are RPGs where the player participates in the experience and even shapes the story of their Shepard.

Bioware has always stated that they value player feedback and they have even utilized player suggestions.

I, quite frankly, do not see how asking them for more context and ending choices compromises the artistic integrity and creative risk of the company.

For people that like the endings as is--leave your game there. You feel pleased, happy, and a sense of closure? I think that's wonderful. More power to you.

Many of us do not feel that way and I think it is very reasonable for us to offer our feedback. And, may I also remind you that Bioware is encouraging player feedback?

I find the tone of your post superior and antagonistic. I will not be revisiting this thread.

Best wishes to you.

Modifié par Ariaya, 22 mars 2012 - 01:07 .

[nevar00]

Dues ex machinas.

DLC commercials.

Lies about content.


This is ART, ladies and gentlemen!

[HenchxNarf]

Adanu wrote...

FataliTensei wrote...

I understand wanting support if you liked the endings but the OP is insulting, rude and frankly off on alot of points. I'm sorry honey but you don't put an ad for DLC at the end of 'art'.

Welcome to how it feels with your lynch mobs on the forum. You people have trolled and insulted and threatened and belittled for WEEKS without any real moderation.

The second I saw this thread I knew all the dislikers would pounce and go on an insulting spree. Showing your true colors is sad.

I know. But they're oh so civil, you know. They don't attack anyone.

Right.

[JMA22TB]

Checkmate implies that victory is assured with no escape.Anyone who states that in an issue that is unresolved is truly ignorant.

On the point of your contentions, artistic integrity as you define it is based on an archaic principle born in an age where artists were privy to information very few people had access to.

Nobles knew the works of Plato while the masses didn't know he existed. Information was only available to the priveleged and secrecy was the rule of the society's elite.

Every one of those secrets is being disclosed and has been for decades. The audience is not ignorant any more. The artist's work is being scrutinized by the collective mind of hundreds of thousands of people who can access more information between them than all of history's greatest minds could in their combined lifetimes.

While the internet is full of just as many lies as truth, people are rapidly discerning the difference between the two collectively.

You are not right. Your views are old and becoming more obsolete by the second.

Art is a shared experience perfected by the criticism of the audience. Even more brilliantly, the imagination of the audience can take an already beautiful creation and perfect it further, ascending it past the original intention.

This is why the Indoctrination Theory is so poignant and beautiful. It takes a divisive and polarizing attempt and perfects it, opening the possibility for the hero's destiny to be decided after an attempt to destroy his will to fight.

Unification is the theme but the Reapers plan to deter Shepard aimed to trick him into accepting its destruction through submission to ideas that only benefit the continuation of their definition of "ascendance."

Their destruction assures the free will and self-determination of all life, both organic and synthetic. The disposal of the most suppressive form of order in favor of the liberty of all life.

The ending is the last ditch effort of a soon to be extinct unnatural creation to preserve its self-proclaimed necessary plan.

Shepard will overcome it and guide the galaxy to its final liberation.

That is art. Built by the audience to perfect the vision of the artist.

[Mr Indivisible]

The angry backlash is due to people being afraid that we won't have our input, get what we want, etc. Thus being left with a disappointing end product.

The strongest and more insensitive react strongly out of fear, or trolling, and need to be forgiven for their angst. We can gently bring people back in line, but slapping them across the face will just make their reaction stronger not weaker.

The most amusing part is that the both pro and against game enders should be happy to embrace new DLC, particularly if it adds a significant chapter to the game (such as new/post ending!).

Personally I think the larger reaction is against the 'movement' is against the returns and financial strike at Bioware, causing the same fear in the pro enders, worried that a company they like will be forever scarred or destroyed.

There is a middle ground, but its likely too late to reach it. I for one am on it, I will not return a game I played, at least for full refund, but I do want a fixed ending, and think they shat the bed as it is.

[Baronesa]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Mr Indivisible wrote...

Two things I find amusing about the pro-ending crowd:

1. They don't want us to have additional endings, at worst more variety to the endings (and at best, a whole new chapter!) means more re-playability, and potentially extra content.

2. They defend artistic integrity in a medium that is purely interactive, TV is not, Paintings are not, Books are not. Games are a fully interactive experience, start to finish, and as such involve the end user (note its called user) in its world and creative process. Why shouldn't we have input? (Even non-interactive mediums have input from the public, seriously here guys)

I won't say anything about the second point, but in the first point, it's that the endings as is?  Are fine.  I'd prefer to see more CONTEXT.  To see an explaination for what takes place.  I mean, the idea of the Catalyst would likely be far more palatable if there was more background information.

But there's no reason to completely rewrite the ending.

I'm sorry Riou... but for someone who quite vocally complained about the story direction taken on another game, because it negated the way the player's characters would react in that situation, and shoehorned us into playing the stupid game and losing by default (Alexis Cole, Statesman, Sister Psyche), I found it a bit hard to believe you accept endings that basically negate the way Shepard has been presented during not 1, but 3 games, going against the odds, rejecting the offers made by Saren and Harbinger, keeping true to self determination.. to finally simply give up and accept the logic of a genocidal god-child?