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Checkmate: Pro-Enders - The Official Support Thread For Creative Risk and Artistic Integrity


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#401
ashdrake1

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Mahrac wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
Pessimistic at best. You missed a key point about Legions conclusions and the realizations that they are self aware beings, EDI was for all intents and purposes human. Legion would have shot shepard as much as he would shoot himself. Indeed the paralells between Legion and Shepard are eerie,


Hell, Legion tries to kill Shepard if he doesn't support Legion.

Legion has the right to defend his life


True, but why not have the Geth fleets flee instead of commiting genocide if you side with him?

#402
RiouHotaru

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Bathaius wrote...

The circular logic of the starchild:

We created synthetics to kill you every 50,000 years so you wouldn't create synthetics that kill you.


But is it actually death?  Is being uplifted, is being "ascended" actually dying?

#403
CavScout

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KTheAlchemist wrote...

CavScout wrote...

pomrink wrote...

CavScout wrote...

The argument is valid. You're saying folks should buy something they don't like. Except you won't hold your self/side to the same "rule". At best you pandering with crappy logic at worst just a hard-on hypocrite.

If "don't buy it if you don't like it" is valid for the DLC it's valid for the game as well. Hell, the game had "much fanfair" too. Yet here you are, with it purchased, crying to high-heaven about how much you dislike it.



Where did I say folks should buy something they didn't like? I'm missing that somewhere, where I even implied that. Infact, I would not have purchased the game had I read the leaks. You're just resorting to ad hominems.

I should have elborated much fanfair, I meant it will likely be known what the new endings will be before they are purchased.

It is not valid for the game because many of us pre-ordered the game. At that point, the game was purchased before we knew what problems it had. Many people will no longer pre-order games. Please, do not insult anyone.


"Don't buy it if you don't like it", your words. Good ones to live by. You shouldn't have bought ME3.


Funny, again, that you mention that. Because one of the reasons we bought it and are now disappointed is that Bioware lied to us about the nature of the ending structure.

Were we supposed to psychically divine that this was the case?


If this premise is accepted as truth, why would you suddenly accept what they say about DLC? Why is one group (the fine with ending as is) suppose to know not to buy something both the other group (the I am raging mad at the ending) not be expect to know the same for what they buy?

#404
Tovanus

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I also support artistic integrity. By artistic integrity, I of course mean writers showing integrity to their own plots. You know, by doing the little things, like avoiding deus ex machina devices.

Too bad, "artistic integrity" is now being taken to mean, "I support the use of clearly unreviewed first drafts that cuts corners in order to start sales on our corporation's targeted release date."

The reality is that artistic integrity left the building the moment the star child showed up.

Edit: Also, is this the same person who's been posting threads with "check mate" in the text in the past? Must be weird to say "check mate" and then continue to watch pieces on the board move.... and move.... and move. Of course, this isn't really like a chess game in any sense. Bioware got hurt by releasing an incredibly sub-par end to their epic trilogy. If they fix the ending, it's not them "losing" a chess game. Everyone wins. Bioware wins by mitigating the damage they've done to their brand name (maybe not fully repairing it, but going a long way with their fanbase), and the fans win by getting a quality end to a beloved franchise.

Modifié par Tovanus, 22 mars 2012 - 01:50 .


#405
CavScout

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CMD-Shep wrote...

one simple phrase...
Synthetics (reapers) were created to cull advanced organic races every 50,000 years in order to stop said advanced organics from being killed by synthetics.

Brilliant!


It's probably useless to use the game's lore and all... but you do know the Reapers are really synthetics, right?

#406
durasteel

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There are some fundamental disagreements I have with the OP's analysis.

First, I believe that the residual issue of conflict between synthetic and organic intelligence had already been addressed before the end of Mass Effect 3, specifically by the very well told stories of EDI and the Geth. Certainly by the time I had completed the second act of the game, any notion that the created could not live in peace with their creators was demonstrably false.

Second, Shepard is not the champion of meatbags in the struggle against toasters. Shepard's motivation is to save the galaxy, and its space-faring races. He stands for order against the chaos of destructive change. He begins the game fighting for Earth and the human race, but as he adds allies and unifies the diverse peoples of the galaxy (including synthetic peoples) he begins to stand for something more, for peaceful coexistence among different people, and standing together against common threats.

Third, the Reapers are not a menace because they are robots; they are a menace because they are extremely powerful and hell-bent on the destruction of all "advanced" races in the galaxy. If they were a race of giant, immortal, psychic, hive-minded space cockroaches that came every 50,000 years to eat all the advanced races and add their knowledge to the space-roach collective hive mind, do you think that Shepard would embrace them as fellow organics? No.

Shepard is not fighting the Reapers because they're synthetic, he is fighting them because they threaten everything he values. Not just humanity, but all the races of the galaxy, their cultures, and galactic civilization. That's what he's fighting for.

Shepard loses that fight.

No matter which color you choose for the explosions, galactic civilization is plunged into a dark age--it says so in Mac Walter's notes. Without the relays, whole systems will be unsustainable, whole races will perish, and galactic culture and civilization as we know it has come to an end. Earth, in particular, will need a lot of help to rebuild just to a point of survival, and that help will not be coming. What few resources remain in the Sol system will be fought over as the various races of the "Victory Fleet" begin to starve and die, and it is anyone's guess whether there will be a human race left on Earth after a few generations. In his efforts to prevent the decimation of Earth and galactic civilization, Shepard has failed, regardless of whether he lives or dies or the Reapers live or die.

So what does the ending really offer us? It produces a Deus Ex Machina in the form of the star baby who instantly and immediately strips away Shepard's ability to continue his fight. At that moment, Shepard has lost that war. Instead, we are thrust into another conflict, between created and creator, which (see above) Shepard has already proven to be needless. Unable to point that out, or to argue in any way against the Reaper God, Shepard must choose from among three bad outcomes: destroy the galactic civilization and become an AI; destroy the galactic civilization along with all AI, including friends and allies who have a right to exist (does this unit have a soul?); or destroy galactic civilization and strip all diversity from the galaxy by homogenizing all life with Shepard/Reaper code.

Shepard and the player have been anticipating a showdown with the Reaper Harbinger since the end of Mass Effect 2. The Cerberus research into indoctrination could have provided a counter-agent or device, which could have permitted Shepard to get into Harbinger and fight to the central core, and spike it to send a corruptive signal throughout the Reaper fleet and give his allies an opening for attack, much the way the feedback from Saren stripped Sovereign's kinetic barriers for just long enough at the battle of the Citadel. That's just one example of how the central conflict of Shepard's story could have been resolved. Instead, when that central conflict was stripped away and discarded our nemesis Harbinger was also dismissed and replaced by the star baby Reaper god.

Did you care about beating "the Catalyst?" I didn't. I wasn't even the least bit invested in conflict with it. Compare that with my feelings about Harbinger--before the release of the game I told a friend of mine that I was looking forward to kicking him is his big metal daddy bag, and I was serious.

The ending that shipped with this game isn't bad because Shepard died. It isn't bad because it wasn't happy. It's bad because it centered on things we don't care about, and discarded everything we did care about. Organic/synthetic... we've done that, it's over. Star child... who cares, it's just kind of annoying. Control the Reapers, well... we've just had a conversation where Shepard argued what a stupid idea that was. Destroy all AI, sure... let's make any and all effort we put into the Geth and EDI a complete waste of time, and violate Shepard's principals of tolerance and respect for a being's right to exist. Or, we can re-write all genetics and AI code in the galaxy against its will.

And any way you "choose," Shepard loses his fight to save the galaxy.

Now, please... explain to me how this is "bittersweet." Tell me how it's cool to see Shepard fail in the end, no matter what choices you've made along the way. This isn't simply bleak... this is bad. The conflict we care about is handwaved away, while the choice we're presented with is meaningless.

This can't be resolved by making up an explanation of how your crew teleported or re-spawned on the Normandy, or why Joker broke for the relay at the last minute. This can only be resolved by a fundamental change to the end of the game.

It is becoming pretty clear that time constraints forced Mac Walters to just throw something together at the last minute in November of 2011. As good as the rest of Mass Effect 3 is, don't you think that the respectful thing to do, the course of action that will best honor the artistic integrity of the game and the series, is to let Mac, Casey, and the rest of their talented team have this as a do-over? Give them a chance to do this right, not throw together a last minute phone-in. The game is worth it, and they deserve the chance to erase this blot from their otherwise solid-gold track record. Let them take a Mulligan.

Anyway, that's how I feel about it.

Modifié par durasteel, 22 mars 2012 - 01:53 .


#407
Risselda

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Just out of curiosity...are "pro-enders" anti- clarifying the ending? Or just against a total remake? Are you against something that would visually differentiate the endings, if it stays true to its 'meaning?'

Because you do have to admit, the same exact ending sequence is kind of meh. Maybe I am just too invested to not know what happens to the species after the war. Especially the krogan.

I personally want what happened to be a bit more clear (right now I can't even tell if the reapers were defeated or not if you pull in the indoc theory). Once I know what happens in the ending, then I feel I can say "liked or didnt like." Right now, I dont have that info, so I feel a little unsatisfied. That and I think it would be interesting to know more about the crucible, for curiosity sake...I mean we have a huge super weapon that the player knows very little about.

I am starting to get confused between the two groups and their intentions.

And I dont think the right word is "entitled." I think it's earned. And not just for the players. Look at the current "dark" moments - Moridins death, Legion, Thane, Anderson... ALL of them were done exceptionally well with exceptional closure. I think that people would respect and enjoy biowares "art" so to speak if they could understand what went on. Too much speculation.

#408
ZodiEmish

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For everyone who is saying that 50,000 people does not mean everyone as a whole. Let me just point something out. Multiple polls from across the internet between BSN, IGN, G4 and many others have shown a 80% ( on average across the polls ) of the players did not like the ending.

Now before anyone says "well that is just a small minority of 50,000 people " let me point out what a sample size is in a survey is...

A sample size is the amount of people you need to get an accurate reading for group of people. This is used in political polls, surveys, and even polls here. A good example of this is the IGN poll on facebook. That poll was sent out to 680,000 people who are on IGN's follow list.  on that list we have over 12,000 people vote on it ( last time I checked )  Now this was sent out to EVERYONE who follows IGN. Not just to people who hated the ending, or liked the ending, but everyone.

 So IGN's poll is by far the most balanced, but It is still showing an 80% of the population do not like the ending. Now once again before you say " oh that is just a small part of it. " Let me remind you a sample size. The more people you have on your poll. the smaller the margin of error is. For example for a million people you need a sample size of about 2,000 people to get the margin of error of about 3%. Meaning it would be anywhere between 3% of what the poll is saying.  On the IGN poll we have 12,000 people taking the poll. so were way past what is needed for that 3% margin of error.

So according to the polls between 77% to 83% of the fans of Mass Effect 3 are disappointed, and that is reflected here at the BSN, on G4, and across the web.  The problem is most fans, or players who finished and are disappointed most likely won't speak up. They won't take the time to defend their franchise because they just don't care as much as those dedicated fans who do care about this product. They are more likely to just move on to other games instead of speaking up.

So don't let anyone talk you down and say that there is only 50,000 of us. statistical theory is on your side. And if anyone wants to read up on sample size then check out this article here, and there are many more on the internet.

#409
Noatz

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Artistic integrity argument falls flat on its arse.

I would like to call to the stand Arthur Conan Doyle, Charles Dickens and JK Rowling.

Ms Rowling, is it true that you altered your original plans for the ending to "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows" out of respect for fan requests that Harry Potter not die?

"Yes it is"

Thankyou. Mr Conan Doyle, did you bring your hero "Sherlock Holmes" back to life following a long and drawn out campaign by readers of your literature?

"Yes I did."

And lastly Mr Dickens, widely considered among the greatest novelists of all time, did you alter the ending to your masterpiece, "Great Expectations" at the behest of your readers?

"I did."

Well your honour, unless anyone here cares to question the "artistic integrity" of my witnesses, I rest my case.

Checkmate. For real this time. Thread over, go home everyone.

#410
Mahrac

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ashdrake1 wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
Pessimistic at best. You missed a key point about Legions conclusions and the realizations that they are self aware beings, EDI was for all intents and purposes human. Legion would have shot shepard as much as he would shoot himself. Indeed the paralells between Legion and Shepard are eerie,


Hell, Legion tries to kill Shepard if he doesn't support Legion.

Legion has the right to defend his life


True, but why not have the Geth fleets flee instead of commiting genocide if you side with him?

the quarians have the advantage until the upload is complete, and they believe that the geth are unwilling to accept peace. if the geth fled, the quarians would pursue. if the quarians stop fireing, the geth consensus is that the quarians are open to a lasting peace.

#411
Lankist

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Image IPB

I'd like to know why "artistic integrity" wasn't a point of contention when it was decided to sell the franchise to everyone with a warehouse and some red paint. And on top of that, there are these little bits of in-game bonus DLC with every random product tie-in purchased, directly influencing the game itself by how much crap you buy with it.

I didn't complain when I was assaulted by god knows how many plugs for various Mass Effect branded crap that I neither care about nor want to buy, nor did I get on a high-horse about how allowing those things to exist degrades the product as a work of art. Why is it only now, when I speak for myself on the disparity between what I received and what I was told I would receive, is "integrity" so damned important?

Modifié par Lankist, 22 mars 2012 - 01:51 .


#412
Wolven_Soul

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Lol.  Wow.  So wrong in so many ways.  I am not even going to waste my time pointing them all out.  Checkmate?  That is just laughable.

#413
RiouHotaru

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Risselda wrote...

Just out of curiosity...are "pro-enders" anti- clarifying the ending? Or just against a total remake? Are you against something that would visually differentiate the endings, if it stays true to its 'meaning?'

Because you do have to admit, the same exact ending sequence is kind of meh. Maybe I am just too invested to not know what happens to the species after the war. Especially the krogan.

I personally want what happened to be a bit more clear (right now I can't even tell if the reapers were defeated or not if you pull in the indoc theory). Once I know what happens in the ending, then I feel I can say "liked or didnt like." Right now, I dont have that info, so I feel a little unsatisfied. That and I think it would be interesting to know more about the crucible, for curiosity sake...I mean we have a huge super weapon that the player knows very little about.

I am starting to get confused between the two groups and their intentions.

And I dont think the right word is "entitled." I think it's earned. And not just for the players. Look at the current "dark" moments - Moridins death, Legion, Thane, Anderson... ALL of them were done exceptionally well with exceptional closure. I think that people would respect and enjoy biowares "art" so to speak if they could understand what went on. Too much speculation.


I'm pro-ending, but I'm definitely NOT anti-clarification.  I openly confess that the Catalyst and it's reasonings need clarification.  I feel the endings will make much more sense if there's clarification.  What I'm against is a complete rewrite.

#414
StartOrange

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Geneaux486 wrote...

But it's not inconsistent.


I think it is. Trying with to explain your views in a neutral way rings pretty hollow after his first (pretty ridiculous) statements.

#415
Phoenix Phire 13

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Honestly, I just don't really know why people would support the ending. And no, I'm not saying this because of the whole "star-child" thing, its because of the many plot-holes. What about the fleet? Will all of the Quarians and Turians starve to death? Will any of them be able to return home (doubtful)? How did your squaddies get to the Normandy? Why did the Normandy leave? Did the Mass Relays destroy their systems? What happens to your squaddies stuck on that planet? Is the food capable of sustaining them? Why does Shepard not question the Star-child, the master of the Reapers? How the hell does he survive the Citadel detonating? Nevermind re-entry. What exactly does synthesis do, does it put Reaper tech into everyone? And how does it affect their personality? How does the synthetic ending stop synthetics from rebelling, when we can just make more of them? Why does Shepard survive the destroy ending when he is part synthetic?

All of these questions and more make me think that the only people capable of supporting the ending are those who put almost literally no thought into it.

#416
J717

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Oh hai guise....is this the thread where i report in if i want to be part of the herd that's ignorant to all of the plot holes and where i can totally disregard the lies the develops/writers spewed pre-release!?

I'd also like to be part of the group that uses "artistic integrity" as a shield to deflect criticism as well! And oh also, does this group support throwing an incomplete and falsely advertised product in people's faces by telling then to buy more downloadable content immediately after seeing the crappy ending?! If so, sign me up!!!!

#417
CavScout

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Mahrac wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
Pessimistic at best. You missed a key point about Legions conclusions and the realizations that they are self aware beings, EDI was for all intents and purposes human. Legion would have shot shepard as much as he would shoot himself. Indeed the paralells between Legion and Shepard are eerie,


Hell, Legion tries to kill Shepard if he doesn't support Legion.

Legion has the right to defend his life


His life isn't being threatened.

#418
Norrax

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MintyCool wrote...

EgoMaster wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

pomrink wrote...

Stop debating this. let the topic die


That's a sure fire way to win an argument. Bioware is not going to change a thing whether this topic exists or not.

Accept that.

I made this topic to voice my support for the ending. The End Game Support Momentum keeps building....


Worst psych war effort ever. No one other than you wrote to this thread supporting the endings but there are many people criticizing. With valid points that you choose to ignore completely I might add. Oh, I forgot. They were the "vocal minority", weren't they? (and that's how you win an argument, by calling people who don't share your opinion "minority".)


Your anger is geared at me for primitive reactionary reasons.

Plenty of people on the boards agree with many of my thoughts, feel free to re-read the thread again. The ones who differ in view are mostly respectful and I actually agree with some of the insight they contributed to the discussion.

Like it or not, forums are havens for vocal minorities. You will often find mostly fringe fans who smother themselves with what they enjoy. My suggestion, take a step back and try to find a little perspective.

Breathe.


which means by your logic those that enjoyed the game are an even smaller minority.:whistle:

holding the line with class!

#419
chkchkchk

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 Please let's all stay civil!  There are no "sides" here.  We're all fans who love the same franchise.

I'm going to quote myself, since this is supposed to be a topic about "creative risk and artistic integrity".

[/quote]
With an artist-audience relationship so intimate, it's only natural that the audience will be moved strongly.  All the anger and passion we're seeing is a direct result of this.  The outcry is exactly what Bioware should have foreseen, because it is exactly the kind of passion they set out to cultivate.  You cannot draw the audience in so deeply and not expect to get a reaction.  Saying "it's just a videogame" is silly.  A painting is just a colour on canvas, yet people go to art school and write books about it.  It's good to experience, create, and think about art.

The Mass Effect trilogy isn't the private work of a hermit who lived and died without ever showcasing his work.  The Mass Effect trilogy is a unique work of participatory art, and in this kind of art the relationship between artist and audience is as intimate as you can get.  It is a step below collaboration.  Everyone becomes invested in what's created.  It's only natural, because it is the whole point.

To say that changing, altering, or expanding on the "current endings" is some kind of affront to "artistic integrity" doesn't hold water.  You cannot pull the audience so deeply into something and then expect them to have no emotional investment.  That emotional investment was the whole point.  It's too late to pretend Mass Effect is the result of a singular vision crafted in isolation.  Even within Bioware you cannot claim Person X or Person Y is the visionary behind Mass Effect.  And to say that none of these talented people were influenced by the audience is silly.  They take careful note of our opinions and playing styles, the same way musicians in jam session or actors in an improv group take cues from each other.  (We're a step down from that level of collaboration, but you take my point.)

People are trying to compare this to a reader asking a writer to change her novel, or a gallery-goer demanding a painting be altered.  This is nothing like that.  Audience participation has been a factor throughout the development of Mass Effect.  It's too late to pretend this isn't the case.  With intimacy comes responsibility.

BUT!  This does not mean anyone "owes" anyone anything, or that we need to be hateful towards each other.  The artist is welcome to ignore the audience, but the artist should be prepared to accept the fallout.  Art is not safe, especially when this many people are involved.  "Authorial intent" is not sacred law, and it certainly has no place in something that asks the audience to identify with and "roleplay" the protagonist over the course of a 100+ hour narrative.  The passion here speaks for itself.  There is no "wrong" reaction to art. [/quote]

#420
KTheAlchemist

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ashdrake1 wrote...

pomrink wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

Machazareel wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

pomrink wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

KTheAlchemist wrote...

I'm sorry, but this entire thing simply feels like arguing for the sake of arguing. If there is DLC which adds to or creates the possibility of new endings, and you don't care for it...

Don't. Install. The DLC.

It's really just that easy. The rest your post is just a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between player and developer on games...they are art, yes, but a fundamentally different sort of art.

And the real bottom line here is that Bioware lied to us. They sold us an ending experience that they apparently had no intention to provide. You can't hide that behind "artistic integrity".


Don't install the DLC has nothing to do with artistic integrity.  This whole movement is a giant leap forward in mediocrity.  Why try something deep, when shallow sells.


It's not deep though.


Bull.  I have never seen the speculation for what occurs after the end, or outright conspiracy theory's that this game has generated.  It's awesome that you did not think about what path to take for the future of a civilization, but I had really had to contemplate what path I chose. 


The depth is not the cause of the speculation, though.


Not true.  There are a good number of people that discuss plot holes and dues ex devices.  That's nice and all, but look at the poll for people that want a good old fashioned happy ending.  Look at the we can't get the ending we want thread.  The largest user created thread on the forums.  It is primarly dedicated to a happy ending.



An honest question, can't something be happy and "deep" at the same time?


Why when it's already deep?  I am left contemplating the future of the galaxy and my friends.  A happy ending would just be cotton candy.  Satisfying at first, but leaving no lasting sensation.  Knowing what happens next cheapens the whole ending.


You're really holding to a false dilemma here. Possibly you haven't seen enough stories that had not-depressing but still deep and through provoking endings. I don't know. At any rate, it's still a false dilemma. Knowing "what happens next" doesn't create a cheap ending, any more than not knowing automatically means it's a deep ending.

At any rate, personally I think the lies that Bioware gave about the structure of the ending are far more important to this issue, and far less something that can be veiled behind "artistic integrity".

Modifié par KTheAlchemist, 22 mars 2012 - 01:52 .


#421
Mahrac

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oh, also. ah, yes. checkmate. we have dismissed your understanding of that claim

#422
RedShft

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MintyCool wrote...

Pro-Ender News:

Pro-Enders claim a major victory today after Bioware Co-founder, Dr. Ray Muzyka confirms the Crucible/Cultural Synthesis narrative will be forever ingrained into the Mass Effect lore.

Dr. Ray Muzyka announced that the Crucible/Cultural Synthesis narrative will receive major updates with future DLC in an attempt to clarify the ending.

With this news's, it's a major blow for Retake Mass Effect as it seems the movement has lost all momentum on all issues concerning the ending.


I really do not know where to start with this. This reads more like an article from Fox News or Kotaku (and no that
isn't a compliment). 

I really do not know why you would write this arrogant pretentious crap but to each their own.

#423
ashdrake1

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Tovanus wrote...

I also support artistic integrity. By artistic integrity, I of course mean writers showing integrity to their own plots. You know, by doing the little things, like avoiding deus ex machina devices.

Too bad, "artistic integrity" is now being taken to mean, "I support the use of clearly unreviewed first drafts that cuts corners in order to start sales on our corporation's targeted release date."

The reality is that artistic integrity left the building the moment the star child showed up.


Yeah.  A story telling device that has greek empire has no place in artistic integrity.  God why do people keep using it?

#424
CavScout

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KTheAlchemist wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
Does it not bother you the Godchild uses circular logic, contradicts himself and in one instance, blatantly lies to you?


You willing to lay these out?


Again, do you want to be taken seriously or not? The information and arguments regarding this circular logic everywhere. If you don't want to be seen just as a troll, don't do the "ask people to spoonfeed me the conterargument". It's a move definitely from Trolling 102, possibly 101.


Arguments that are so easy and so obvious are shockingly always in short supply. I would suggest one who has attacked the poster and not the arguments being made (that would be you attacking me) is the real troll.

#425
Mahrac

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CavScout wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
Pessimistic at best. You missed a key point about Legions conclusions and the realizations that they are self aware beings, EDI was for all intents and purposes human. Legion would have shot shepard as much as he would shoot himself. Indeed the paralells between Legion and Shepard are eerie,


Hell, Legion tries to kill Shepard if he doesn't support Legion.

Legion has the right to defend his life


His life isn't being threatened.

so the quarians wanting to destroy his race doesn't threaten legions life... how?