873 réponses à ce sujet

[pomrink]

I think I count 6 pro enders. Vocal minority they are on these forums.

[chkchkchk]

Dear OP:

Participatory art. Google it.

[KTheAlchemist]

CavScout wrote...

Noatz wrote...

Artistic integrity argument falls flat on its arse.

I would like to call to the stand Arthur Conan Doyle, Charles Dickens and JK Rowling.

Ms Rowling, is it true that you altered your original plans for the ending to "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows" out of respect for fan requests that Harry Potter not die?

"Yes it is"

Thankyou. Mr Conan Doyle, did you bring your hero "Sherlock Holmes" back to life following a long and drawn out campaign by readers of your literature?

"Yes I did."

And lastly Mr Dickens, widely considered among the greatest novelists of all time, did you alter the ending to your masterpiece, "Great Expectations" at the behest of your readers?

"I did."

Well your honour, unless anyone here cares to question the "artistic integrity" of my witnesses, I rest my case.

Checkmate. For real this time. Thread over, go home everyone.

Artists can change their art, I don't think anyone is disputing that. What is being disputed is that consumer have the right to force said changes.

No one is forcing anything. What you're looking at is market forces in action, that Bioware can accept or refuse. If they say tomorrow "sorry, no new endings for you", no jack-booted thugs will raid the Bioware HQ and force them to change it at gunpoint.

It's sort of the inverse of "shut up and take my money!".  It's essentially "Please fix this or you won't get my money."

[StartOrange]

RiouHotaru wrote...


I never ONCE said sunshine and roses.  I merely said that it's not the doom and demise of the galactic community.

Pretty sure codex said that it takes years going to Ilos without the relays. No matter what you say, these points stand:

1. Everyone you brought to Earth is dead. No way they can sustain everyone there or have enough flying back.
2. Most large city planets will probably suffer from starvation.
3. Every world visited by the Reapers will suffer a great deal of starvation.
4. If the Arrival DLC and the Normandy escape scene is to be believed, pretty much every system with a relay is screwed.

[NReed106]

RiouHotaru wrote...

NReed106 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

durasteel wrote...

No matter which color you choose for the explosions, galactic civilization is plunged into a dark age--it says so in Mac Walter's notes. Without the relays, whole systems will be unsustainable, whole races will perish, and galactic culture and civilization as we know it has come to an end. Earth, in particular, will need a lot of help to rebuild just to a point of survival, and that help will not be coming. What few resources remain in the Sol system will be fought over as the various races of the "Victory Fleet" begin to starve and die, and it is anyone's guess whether there will be a human race left on Earth after a few generations. In his efforts to prevent the decimation of Earth and galactic civilization, Shepard has failed, regardless of whether he lives or dies or the Reapers live or die.

But this is just speculation.  There's absolutely NO evidence that proves this is what will take place.

Actually you have no evidence it WON'T. 
Evidence of relays going supernova:
Arrival DLC
Evidence the ships are screwed:
Normandy is hit by the energy wave in EACH ENDING, and EACH TIME is stranded on the planet (how can an undestructive force damage the normandy so thoroughly? ) Common sense means that the same happens to ships orbiting earth
Evidence Earth doesnt have the capacity to sustain population
-Quarians and Turians eat different food (codex)
-Destruction of Reapers (what is seen, talked about, and common sense)

Where is your evidence everything is sunshine and roses?

I never ONCE said sunshine and roses.  I merely said that it's not the doom and demise of the galactic community.

And how is that?  The relays destroyed the Normandy how did they not destroy the Fleet at earth?

[OrumLeader]

RiouHotaru wrote...

NReed106 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

durasteel wrote...

No matter which color you choose for the explosions, galactic civilization is plunged into a dark age--it says so in Mac Walter's notes. Without the relays, whole systems will be unsustainable, whole races will perish, and galactic culture and civilization as we know it has come to an end. Earth, in particular, will need a lot of help to rebuild just to a point of survival, and that help will not be coming. What few resources remain in the Sol system will be fought over as the various races of the "Victory Fleet" begin to starve and die, and it is anyone's guess whether there will be a human race left on Earth after a few generations. In his efforts to prevent the decimation of Earth and galactic civilization, Shepard has failed, regardless of whether he lives or dies or the Reapers live or die.

But this is just speculation.  There's absolutely NO evidence that proves this is what will take place.

Actually you have no evidence it WON'T. 
Evidence of relays going supernova:
Arrival DLC
Evidence the ships are screwed:
Normandy is hit by the energy wave in EACH ENDING, and EACH TIME is stranded on the planet (how can an undestructive force damage the normandy so thoroughly? ) Common sense means that the same happens to ships orbiting earth
Evidence Earth doesnt have the capacity to sustain population
-Quarians and Turians eat different food (codex)
-Destruction of Reapers (what is seen, talked about, and common sense)

Where is your evidence everything is sunshine and roses?

I never ONCE said sunshine and roses.  I merely said that it's not the doom and demise of the galactic community.

This is my main problem with the ending.  Do you want to be in the frying pan or the fire?

[ashdrake1]

[quote]KTheAlchemist wrote...

[quote]ashdrake1 wrote...

[quote]KTheAlchemist wrote...

[quote]ashdrake1 wrote...

[quote]pomrink wrote...

[quote]ashdrake1 wrote...

[quote]Machazareel wrote...

[quote]ashdrake1 wrote...

[quote]pomrink wrote...

[quote]ashdrake1 wrote...

[quote]KTheAlchemist wrote...

I'm sorry, but this entire thing simply feels like arguing for the sake of arguing. If there is DLC which adds to or creates the possibility of new endings, and you don't care for it...

Don't. Install. The DLC.

It's really just that easy. The rest your post is just a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between player and developer on games...they are art, yes, but a fundamentally different sort of art.

And the real bottom line here is that Bioware lied to us. They sold us an ending experience that they apparently had no intention to provide. You can't hide that behind "artistic integrity".[/quote]

Don't install the DLC has nothing to do with artistic integrity.  This whole movement is a giant leap forward in mediocrity.  Why try something deep, when shallow sells.
[/quote]

It's not deep though.

[/quote]

Bull.  I have never seen the speculation for what occurs after the end, or outright conspiracy theory's that this game has generated.  It's awesome that you did not think about what path to take for the future of a civilization, but I had really had to contemplate what path I chose. 

[/quote]

The depth is not the cause of the speculation, though.

[/quote]

Not true.  There are a good number of people that discuss plot holes and dues ex devices.  That's nice and all, but look at the poll for people that want a good old fashioned happy ending.  Look at the we can't get the ending we want thread.  The largest user created thread on the forums.  It is primarly dedicated to a happy ending.

[/quote]


An honest question, can't something be happy and "deep" at the same time?

[/quote]

Why when it's already deep?  I am left contemplating the future of the galaxy and my friends.  A happy ending would just be cotton candy.  Satisfying at first, but leaving no lasting sensation.  Knowing what happens next cheapens the whole ending.

[/quote]

You're really holding to a false dilemma here. Possibly you haven't seen enough stories that had not-depressing but still deep and through provoking endings. I don't know. At any rate, it's still a false dilemma. Knowing "what happens next" doesn't create a cheap ending, any more than not knowing automatically means it's a deep ending.

[/quote]

So give me a example.  Not knowing what happens next and is well told enough for you to contemplate it weeks after next to a happy I know how it all turned out ending?  

[/quote]

The way that you do this is by handling the philosophical topics with more finesse.

Now, I'm going to exaggerate GROSSLY for a moment so please keep that in mind. I'm trying to illustrate a point and I am admitting that this is exaggeration.

Let's say that in the last 10 minutes, the game were to go even further...let's say it took control away entirely, and let you respond to no questions at all. Let's say it didn't let you make even little decisions about what Shepard said in response to the SpaceGodChildThing rather than what many of us felt were limited choices. And at the end of all this, Casey Hudson's face came on the screen and said "BECAUSE THE UNIVERSE IS COLD AND UNCARING AND YOUR CHOICES DON'T MATTER. GET IT?!?!"

That isn't what happened, but what did happen sort of falls along similar lines for many of us. This is what tvtropes refers to as "anvilicious". A message that is blunt, unsophisticated, and may as well have been printed on an anvil and dropped on the audience's head. Now...I don't think that the end is ENTIRELY that...but I do think that many of the ways in which it handles the themes are very ham-fisted.

If you want to have a point in a story and have it be a well-written story, you have to write the story in such a way that it naturally creates this conclusion in the mind of the audience. This is a reason why Deus Ex Machina (or, in this case, Diablous Ex Machina) is very very bad if you want to have a thought-provoking "point" to your ending, and have the audience absorb and think about and internalize that point. (If you don't want that, one could question why you wanted to raise the point in the first place.)

When you have that sort of forced, "ex machina" sort of ending, it actually strips away the thought. If so many of us are going "but the kid was wrong, and Shepard didn't question the kid at all even though he always questions authority...why?" It's especially bad due to the nature of interactive media, because Shepard is US, something reinforced by the customized character, the notions of choice being so CENTRAL to the game.

Games all over constantly force a single arbitrary ending on is..this is actually the standard rather than the norm. But for a game that revolves around bucking that trend to re-assume that trend right at the end, and wrap it up in a very arguable philosophical argument? It's something I'd think would be obvious is doomed to meet with ill will.

Most people, arent' really mulling over any "point" because it got shoved down their throats rather than simply presenting a story that naturally made them think about it.

[/quote]

You don't think at all a ending that is "forced" upon us is a tool to keep telling a story.  Shepards story may be done, but they have stated the setting will continue, and that we should keep our saves.  It as it always has been with every game in the series.  The ending is always the same, but the choices you make affect the story as it goes.

[RiouHotaru]

Sassafrass23 wrote...

When you raise over 70k in revenue to support your claims like we did then ill view your topic as the majority. Otherwise YOU are the minority here not us
.Hold the line

...Are you f*ing kidding me?  So because the pro-enders don't have a charity we're suddenly irrevelant?

WELP, there goes any respect I had for Retake!

[CavScout]

Mahrac wrote...

oh, also. ah, yes. checkmate. we have dismissed your understanding of that claim

Blagojevich dismissed the charges against him.. he started his prison term recently.

[Arokel]

Well I have never seen a quote pyramid do that before lol.

[Mahrac]

CavScout wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

oh, also. ah, yes. checkmate. we have dismissed your understanding of that claim

Blagojevich dismissed the charges against him.. he started his prison term recently.

he clearly didn't understand the charges then

Modifié par Mahrac, 22 mars 2012 - 02:22 .

[CavScout]

Mahrac wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
Pessimistic at best. You missed a key point about Legions conclusions and the realizations that they are self aware beings, EDI was for all intents and purposes human. Legion would have shot shepard as much as he would shoot himself. Indeed the paralells between Legion and Shepard are eerie,

Hell, Legion tries to kill Shepard if he doesn't support Legion.

Legion has the right to defend his life

His life isn't being threatened.

so the quarians wanting to destroy his race doesn't threaten legions life... how?

I just said his life wasn't being threatened. If one of them is going to die, why are the Geth prefered over the Quarians?

[RiouHotaru]

pomrink wrote...

I think I count 6 pro enders. Vocal minority they are on these forums.

Because they choose not to make themselves targets.  I'm not sure why I haven't done what they've done.

[Oxy Clean]

Ehm. My previous quote was not exactly what you would call "Professional"

So let me say this, the public has the right to the freedom of speech and freedom of press. The public can voice their opinions as they are doing here, on these forums. Demanding a better ending/endings to the series that has gripped us all emotionally. Just as you have the right to support the ending, we have a right to demand a better one.

Hold the line.

[Jagri]

Oh how about this group donates to charity too? Lets see something fitting...

International Child Art Foundation
http://www.icaf.org/

Might as well do something positive while spreading a message about artistic integrity right?

[DonJuan2000]

Gamedesign is about interactions and meet the will of players interactions in a game environment. RPG even more and more about player in making a story. If you dont like this, you should not develop RPG for sure, but maybe not VG in general....

[General User]

CavScout wrote...

Noatz wrote...

Artistic integrity argument falls flat on its arse.

I would like to call to the stand Arthur Conan Doyle, Charles Dickens and JK Rowling.

Ms Rowling, is it true that you altered your original plans for the ending to "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows" out of respect for fan requests that Harry Potter not die?

"Yes it is"

Thankyou. Mr Conan Doyle, did you bring your hero "Sherlock Holmes" back to life following a long and drawn out campaign by readers of your literature?

"Yes I did."

And lastly Mr Dickens, widely considered among the greatest novelists of all time, did you alter the ending to your masterpiece, "Great Expectations" at the behest of your readers?

"I did."

Well your honour, unless anyone here cares to question the "artistic integrity" of my witnesses, I rest my case.

Checkmate. For real this time. Thread over, go home everyone.

Artists can change their art, I don't think anyone is disputing that. What is being disputed is that consumer have the right to force said changes.

The nutter who filed the complaint with the American FTC and his ilk notwithstanding, I really don't think the Retake movement is about 'forcing' Bioware to do anything so much as putting pressure on them to do so.

It's an important distinction.  EA/Bioware can respond to the fan pressure or not, there will be positive and negative consequences either way.

[Mahrac]

CavScout wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
Pessimistic at best. You missed a key point about Legions conclusions and the realizations that they are self aware beings, EDI was for all intents and purposes human. Legion would have shot shepard as much as he would shoot himself. Indeed the paralells between Legion and Shepard are eerie,

Hell, Legion tries to kill Shepard if he doesn't support Legion.

Legion has the right to defend his life

His life isn't being threatened.

so the quarians wanting to destroy his race doesn't threaten legions life... how?

I just said his life wasn't being threatened. If one of them is going to die, why are the Geth prefered over the Quarians?

i prefer neither die. if shepard sides with the quarians, he is condeming legion to death, so legion has the right to defend himself and his race

edit:typo

Modifié par Mahrac, 22 mars 2012 - 02:23 .

[NReed106]

Mahrac wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
Pessimistic at best. You missed a key point about Legions conclusions and the realizations that they are self aware beings, EDI was for all intents and purposes human. Legion would have shot shepard as much as he would shoot himself. Indeed the paralells between Legion and Shepard are eerie,

Hell, Legion tries to kill Shepard if he doesn't support Legion.

Legion has the right to defend his life

His life isn't being threatened.

so the quarians wanting to destroy his race doesn't threaten legions life... how?

I just said his life wasn't being threatened. If one of them is going to die, why are the Geth prefered over the Quarians?

i prefer neither die. if shepard sides with the quarians, he is condeming legion to death, so legion has the right to defend himself and his race

edit:typo

Legion dies no matter what....

Modifié par NReed106, 22 mars 2012 - 02:24 .

[superduperkoala]

I respectfully disagree with the OP because I cannot sense any no soul or effort put into the ending.

HOWEVER, people be CIVIL and RESPECTFUL!

Modifié par superduperkoala, 22 mars 2012 - 02:24 .

[Shallyah]

Hello OP.

I took the liberty to take five minutes of my free time to find a bit of where does that hipstery attitude of yours come from, as to insult about everyone as if they are incapable of apprecaiting art in such a high and mighty manner as you do.

** Here is you bashing Dragon Age 2 with your hipstery attitude: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/4799687

You failed to convince anyone, apparently. Dragon Age 2 was a massive success.


** Here's you calling doom and gloom over Mass Effect 3 multiplayer: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/8437526

Obviously you failed too, as Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer seems to have received massive acceptance, and the weekend event "Operation Goliath" has been successfully met, despite the backlash due to the endings controversy.


** Here is you being a hipster about why Liara shouldn't be playable in Mass Effect 3: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/1707508

Another failure for you, my friend. Liara made it into the game and seems to be by far the most liked and popular character (though seriously, Tali needs more love!)


** And here is you explaining how Mass Effect as a whole sucks, and The Witcher is so much better franchise: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/4536498

Another massive failure, as Mass Effect franchise has an overwhelmingly superior success over The Witcher in all fields.

You are quite the Bioware fan, I see. Ready to stab at every opportunity the company of which now you claim to be defending their artistic integrity. Artistic integrity which you have tried to violate in some of those posts I've linked, by calling bioware a range of things from incompetent to inefficient, as well as untalented.

I come to the conclussion that you really do not care about what you are saying, you only seek to disagree with what people want, perhaps in some kind of personal vendetta against humanity and general enjoyment. All this Pro-ender stuff is just another way for you to vent and attempt to ruin other people's days, in the hopes that Bioware will actually listen to someone that can only agree on disagreeing with what 98% of the players want.

Well, this time too, you have lost. Please feel free to contradict me, or be a hipster overanayzing what I said.

Modifié par Shallyah, 22 mars 2012 - 02:29 .

[Adanu]

KTheAlchemist wrote...

Adanu wrote...

CamlTowPetttingZoo wrote...

Is it just me, or did this "pro-ender" thread turn into a "retake" thread?

Welcome to the new BSN, where the ****s run rampant now.

Freedom is the ability to express your opinions, and to have those opinions challenged.

[Oxy Clean]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Sassafrass23 wrote...

When you raise over 70k in revenue to support your claims like we did then ill view your topic as the majority. Otherwise YOU are the minority here not us
.Hold the line

...Are you f*ing kidding me?  So because the pro-enders don't have a charity we're suddenly irrevelant?

WELP, there goes any respect I had for Retake!

The ignorance of one person does not classify the whole group as ignorant.

We all know what happens when we judge an entire group based on the actions of one person that happens to have connections with that group.

[Sc2mashimaro]

Plot holes are present in almost every story ever made. The only reason people usually notice them or care is because their immersion was broken by another problem in the story's execution. They are rarely noticed by themselves. The failing of the end of the Mass Effect 3 story is not the plot holes in of themselves, but the rhetorical and thematic inconsistency that broke player immersion in the game.

[Kulthar Drax]

"As for the ‘changing art’ argument, Tycho over at Penny Arcade gives
a much better counter than I can muster. In addition, Mass Effect 3 is
an interactive medium, not a static one. The joy of the series has been
being able to mold the story by your choices- it isn’t cast in stone
like a novel or painting. If we shouldn’t demand changes to the game,
does that mean we should stop asking for patches for graphical glitches
or errors? Does that mean that no one should touch up a painting? It’s
ludicrous. As well, Mass Effect is a commercial property. It was made
and distributed for profit- and as such, if a customer has a legitimate
grievance or complaint, it should be addressed. Even if Bioware said
tomorrow ‘We’re not changing the ending, sorry,’ that would be better
than the side-stepping and silence the community has received so far. In
fact, if Bioware came clean with the fans, they wouldn’t be facing a
lot of the anger they are now." - Chris Matyskiel, Robot Geek.

I am quite fond of this specific quote stated in this guy's commentary regarding Mass Effect 3's ending.