873 réponses à ce sujet

[Lugaidster]

anonymousx wrote...

Video games are not art. Writing is not art. Compromising or supplementing bad writing does not detract or add to an object's artistic value because it is the equivalent of multiplying a sum by zero.

I draw comic books. I am not an artist. I am a craftsman. There is a difference between Maus and
Marvel Super Heroes #223. Mass Effect is firmly in the latter. Trying to take a garden variety Space Opera concept and trying to qualify it as art is laughable.

Doing an about face in the third installment of a Space Opera trilogy is not genius. It's just desperation.

People who want to support the ending because of artistic integrity are giving BioWare too much credit. There is no art present to protect. The endings were all about creating a new slate for the next Mass Effect game. Anyone expecting to be happy with what BioWare puts out next is sadly mistaken, because there is only so much they are going to be able to change in the context of their future goals.

You clearly have a problem with the concept of subjectivity. Art is subjective and it's interpretation is qualitative, not quantitative. As such, there's no clear bound on to what is or isn't art. If something is ****ty to you and doesn't qualify to *your* definition of art, it doesn't really matter.

[MeganHunter]

I've only spoken with two real life friends who would be considered "pro ender," if I have it right. that's not to say there's not more, most of my friends have been too busy with work or kids to crack ME3 open like I have. But I noticed the same thing with both: neither one has gotten to the ending yet.

Online, I see much of the same. A lot of people talking about artistic integrity haven't actually seen the ending (not saying you OP) or they say "I don't see how my opinion on it is relevant." That's really, really super telling. But that's just it. I don't have a beef with anybody wanting to protect IP or not set bad precedent. Heck, I work in IP creation, of course I'm going to agree with that. But this conversation really isn't about that. It's about how this one ending in particular is soooooooo bad for so many reasons that it does their whole beautiful franchise injustice.

[Cloaking_Thane]

Lexagg wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Artists can change their art, I don't think anyone is disputing that. What is being disputed is that consumer have the right to force said changes.

Of course we can, why would you think otherwise?

Consumers have the right to not purchase a product, they don't have the right to design it...

Sure we do, I can purchase a painting and help in design and though process just as one example

Yay, fail analogy! How about this - you purchase a wrapped book that the ad tells you is a noir detective. You bring it home and it's a teen love story about vampires.

Wrong perfect analogy.......and in your fail analogy I can go back and demand it be changed...welcome to the real world

[Spectre_Shepard]

is checkmate the pro-enders version of hold the line? amusing...

[CavScout]

StartOrange wrote...
Pretty sure codex said that it takes years going to Ilos without the relays. No matter what you say, these points stand:

1. Everyone you brought to Earth is dead. No way they can sustain everyone there or have enough flying back.
2. Most large city planets will probably suffer from starvation.
3. Every world visited by the Reapers will suffer a great deal of starvation.
4. If the Arrival DLC and the Normandy escape scene is to be believed, pretty much every system with a relay is screwed.

1. Extremely specious assumption with out any basis.
2. Coruscantis a different genre.
3. Every world visited by the Reapers suffered great losses, making it easier to support the survivors.
4. Arrival shows us what asteroid do to relays... something ME3 did use.

[Lugaidster]

Dreogan wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

Art is nothing more than a expression of views and opinions.  Are you saying your own thoughts on the issue would be subject to change if someone paid you for it?  That your anger at the ending meant nothing because you received money for it?  That would make it allright?

My opinion is you are wrong. You cannot change my opinion because art.

You have to try harder. You either don't understand art, it's definition or you're simply a troll.

[leondes1]

MintyCool wrote...

leondes1 wrote...

Bingo, troll exposed, Someone at bioware lock this trend already.

The Retake Motto.

Can you really flame any harder? You have already been exposed. Even people in your own trend see that. 

Flamebaiting troll

The amount of hate in the trend is out of hand and it should be locked for that reason. What you just did there just shows how much of a troll you really are. We don't need hate, we need open discussions not flamebaiting. This trend is continues to push out more and more hate out by the minute.

[ashdrake1]

KTheAlchemist wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

KTheAlchemist wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

You don't think at all a ending that is "forced" upon us is a tool to keep telling a story.  Shepards story may be done, but they have stated the setting will continue, and that we should keep our saves.  It as it always has been with every game in the series.  The ending is always the same, but the choices you make affect the story as it goes.

It doesn't really function in that capacity, though.

Let's say for the sake of argument that this doesn't create a devastated galaxy that is incapable of functioning (which goes back into plot holes, but okay). Let's say that they eventually create better FTL drives and the galaxy sloooowly creeps back up to where it once was and is a place where you could have a game of somewhat similar scope to ME1-3.

You've still got "Is everyone hybrid synthetic?", "Are all synthetics dead?" and "Are the reapers still around under the control of some weird disembodied Shepard-consciousness?". Three things that would grossly change the face of a future ME title to the point that it would probably be beyond even Bioware's means to create such a game.

Given this ending as is, if shepard's story ends and we go on to other stories in this universe that take place later, they're going to have to create a "canon ending" as far as that NEW series of games goes. Forcing us into a tunnel at the end doesn't solve that in any way. It actually makes the problem worse. A universe that's pretty much the same a hundred years into the future to what it is now, is much easier to work around and work player choices into in some fashion than a galaxy whose entire face is changed.

Meanwhile, my and many people's real problem with all this remains: If you're going to ram everything down to 3 off-the-peg choices in pursuit of some philosophical "point", you'd better not promise people something wildly different from what you're planning to deliver.

It really doesn't though.  It's pretty easy to write through.  Reapers never return.  Shepard basically  becomes a god in the control option.  Does not see a reason to return.   Synthesis convinces the reapers they are no longer needed and destroy is obvios.  No need for reapers.  

Even with the destroy option, godchild states we will still create synthetics.  So you do a skin swap for any robot people and change some dialoge.  Same for the synthesis.  It's not like these will be active topics if the place the next game a 1000 years from now.

Actually the problem is that they WILL be an active topic 1000 years from now. You do realize that the "robot people" you're talking about reskinning would be, in the case of a "synthesis" future scenario, every single living being in the galaxy, right? That's basically an entire 2nd set of art assets that only exists if you chose synthesis. Compare this to a history where Shepard saved the galaxy (since obviously a total failure ending would have to be non-canon if you're playing a future game) , but the differences are more did Shepard live, did Shepard die, what became of his crew members, et cetera. They're not saving themselves work or making future games somehow easier in any way with this...if anything we're more likely to get a "canon" ending.

Why?  Are they going to bring up we are half robot all the time a 1000 years after it happens?  Does the Fall of the roman empire come up all the time in day to day conversation?  All it requires is a simple skin change(as seen in the ending) some off comments and perhaps some diffrent codex entries.

[111987]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

111987 wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

111987 wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...


Sure, but how is this any different than the sustainability of the Citadel races?

or Krogan....or any other free willed being...........no answer for this at all


God child proclaims inevitability, oniscience in the last 2 min lol be serious

Synthetics could achieve a technological singularity that would be impossible to defeat. They would wipe out all organic life. Or at least, that's what the Reaper's are trying to prevent.

Organics could never do the same. Try to understand the argument before simply dismissing it.

that's absolutely no argument thats simply you making things up

Clearly you did not understand the ending. But okay, I'm willing to agree to disagree.

I was wondering when the I'm smarter than you would come out....didn't take long.

So Godchild states that synthetics will always attempt to wipe out organics...and that at face value is enough to sustain you. So be it.

I never said i was smarter than you; that would be impossible to discern from a single, quick debate on an internet forum.

I'm saying you aren't understanding what the Star Child's argument is.

[CavScout]

NReed106 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
I never ONCE said sunshine and roses.  I merely said that it's not the doom and demise of the galactic community.

And how is that?  The relays destroyed the Normandy how did they not destroy the Fleet at earth?

You avoided his question about you ascribing a position that he didn't take....

Secondly, we don't know what damaged the Normandy (she wasn't destroyed). And the energy released in the Destroy option is show to be harmless to buildings and organics fighting the reapers (in the good version).

[Cloaking_Thane]

111987 wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

111987 wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

111987 wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...


Sure, but how is this any different than the sustainability of the Citadel races?

or Krogan....or any other free willed being...........no answer for this at all


God child proclaims inevitability, oniscience in the last 2 min lol be serious

Synthetics could achieve a technological singularity that would be impossible to defeat. They would wipe out all organic life. Or at least, that's what the Reaper's are trying to prevent.

Organics could never do the same. Try to understand the argument before simply dismissing it.

that's absolutely no argument thats simply you making things up

Clearly you did not understand the ending. But okay, I'm willing to agree to disagree.

I was wondering when the I'm smarter than you would come out....didn't take long.

So Godchild states that synthetics will always attempt to wipe out organics...and that at face value is enough to sustain you. So be it.

I never said i was smarter than you; that would be impossible to discern from a single, quick debate on an internet forum.

I'm saying you aren't understanding what the Star Child's argument is.

Im saying I did

[ashdrake1]

Dreogan wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

Art is nothing more than a expression of views and opinions.  Are you saying your own thoughts on the issue would be subject to change if someone paid you for it?  That your anger at the ending meant nothing because you received money for it?  That would make it allright?

My opinion is you are wrong. You cannot change my opinion because art.

This is the opposite view of any one that argues against artistic integrity due to consumerism.

[CavScout]

OrumLeader wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
I never ONCE said sunshine and roses.  I merely said that it's not the doom and demise of the galactic community.

This is my main problem with the ending.  Do you want to be in the frying pan or the fire?

False equivalency. Suggestion that Reaper harvesting is the same as possible death or hardship is silly.

Your options are more akin to:

A)Certain Extinction
B)Chance at survival

[Area42T]

Why is this thread still alive

[CavScout]

ashdrake1 wrote...
You don't think at all a ending that is "forced" upon us is a tool to keep telling a story.  Shepards story may be done, but they have stated the setting will continue, and that we should keep our saves.  It as it always has been with every game in the series.  The ending is always the same, but the choices you make affect the story as it goes.

Any ending was going to be "forced" on you. You were never going to have an unlimited number of endings.

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

I have a bachelor's degree in video game art and design and I work at a video game company, and if I was working at BioWare and was involved in that ending I would be ashamed of myself for not having the "integrity" to quit.

[Dreogan]

Lugaidster wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

Art is nothing more than a expression of views and opinions.  Are you saying your own thoughts on the issue would be subject to change if someone paid you for it?  That your anger at the ending meant nothing because you received money for it?  That would make it allright?

My opinion is you are wrong. You cannot change my opinion because art.

You have to try harder. You either don't understand art, it's definition or you're simply a troll.

I absolutely understand art, in all the term's meaningless definitions. You are the slow individual that cannot understand the depth of my art. It is simply too profound.

[KTheAlchemist]

MintyCool wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

Hello OP.

Hello Shallyah.

Shallyah wrote...

I took the liberty to take five minutes of my free time to find a bit of where does that hipstery attitude of yours come from, as to insult about everyone as if they are incapable of apprecaiting art in such a high and mighty manner as you do.

So from what I can infer I'm a "hipster" because my opinion differs from yours....

While you have spent 5 minutes trying to belittle my thoughts and opinion about the ending of ME3; I've had to clear messages from my inbox with constant harassement, threats, and continual mocking of my ideas.

Every other post in this thread, I'm continually called a troll for simply not agreeing with Retake. What an awesome movment....

Shallyah wrote...
** Here is you bashing Dragon Age 2 with your hipstery attitude: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/4799687

You failed to convince anyone, apparently. Dragon Age 2 was a massive success.

I found Dragon Age 2 to be quite the disapointment. I fail to see what is wrong with that.

Shallyah wrote...
** Here's you calling doom and gloom over Mass Effect 3 multiplayer: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/8437526

Obviously you failed too, as Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer seems to have received massive acceptance, and the weekend event "Operation Goliath" has been successfully met, despite the backlash due to the endings controversy.

Again, apperently I "failed" for voicing my concerns over multiplayer. You would think this information would be cheered on by the Retake Movement since they are so open to other peoples insights on such subjects.

Shallyah wrote...
** And here is you explaining how Mass Effect as a whole sucks, and The Witcher is so much better franchise: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/4536498

So thinking Witcher is a better series makes my point invalid with this topic...how?

Shallyah wrote...
You are quite the Bioware fan, I see. Ready to stab at every opportunity the company of which now you claim to be defending their artistic integrity.

Yes, I have varying opinions like any other human being. Again, I really am not following you.

Shallyah wrote...
Well, this time too, you have lost. Please feel free to contradict me, or be a hipster overanayzing what I said.

Actually I kind of agreed with you... and I'm still very confused. Maybe shoulda spent another 10 minutes perhaps trying make a point? Or was that just it? Another Retake Mass Effect member calling me....

troll.

I look forward to your response.

Actually there's one thing here I might field. You seem to feel alright with asking for changes when the game has not been released yet, yet asking for changes after the game's release is violating "artistic integrity". So how does that play into Bioware directly misleading us about the nature of the endings so that we were both misinformed about our purchase and unable to proactively ask for changes?

[Kloborgg711]

Area42T wrote...

Why is this thread still alive

This. I was looking at current threads and when I say "CHECKMATE" again my face plummeted into my desk.

[MintyCool]

leondes1 wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

leondes1 wrote...

Bingo, troll exposed, Someone at bioware lock this trend already.

The Retake Motto.

Can you really flame any harder? You have already been exposed. Even people in your own trend see that. 

Flamebaiting troll

The amount of hate in the trend is out of hand and it should be locked for that reason. What you just did there just shows how much of a troll you really are. We don't need hate, we need open discussions not flamebaiting. This trend is continues to push out more and more hate out by the minute.

So I'm attacked for 20 pages; and when I actually respond with something cute you scream foul? Contrary to what you project on me; I did create an open discussion... that was the entire point of this thread. I can't help it if your dying movement resorts to fits of rage.

My Response, reasonable? I think so.

Give this a read I assure you my goal wasn't to troll...

MintyCool wrote...
Why We Feel the Ending Works:

1. Shepard, war torn and exhausted, leaped into the crucibles energy source sacrificing his life to intertwine existences between synthetics and organics.

A few hours ago, this is how my tale ended after five years of Mass Effect; and I was quite satisfied with the ending.

2. The writing team behind Mass Effect 3 was able to elevate the narrative premise by weaving a philosophical debate about the relationship between organic and synthetic coexistence. The entire story throughout the third addition is laced with the ideas of life, harmony, and self preservation.

More than ever, the story has morphed into a game about big themes and big ideas.

Just some of the thoughts explored throughout this game...

EDI and free will, Synthetic dominance, Lineage, Genophage, Causality, Geth/quarian conflict, Determinism, Legacy - Miranda's father, Synchronicity and Kaiden, False Theology-Asari Prothean Gods, personal fulfillment, etc.

Compared to the previous installments that may have skimmed over some of these topics, all the philosophical and sociological debates/conflicts in this iteration have the main goal of bolstering the main theme of Mass Effect 3,

The existence of The Creators vs. The Created.

3. Two camps are formed because of this instance. The story the writers wish to tell, and the fans who feel entitled to observe the story they themselves envisioned.

The writers, it seems, realized the message that they wanted people to take from this third installment. This had the team shifting the narrative focus to a more elevated dynamic.

The coexistence of Synthetics vs. Organics.

4. To this end, Mass Effect 3 succeeds in weaving a narrative from beginning to end. To say otherwise is disingenuous.

Philosophical themes trounce the Neanderthal-dopamine induced urges people wish to see in this addition. Especially in the end game where this theme becomes the stories main focal point.

Honestly is a cameo appearance from Wrex for the 50th time really going to add anything to the finality of this story? No.

5. Unfortunately I find a Star Wars Syndrome happening with this series. A fan base digesting every bit of corn fructose they can gulp down. Needing everything to be spelled out; desperate to know every last bit of information.

Why must one need to see Tali's face? Why do we need to know a detailed history of the Protheans? How come we need to see the Rachni and Krogan attack the enemy? Isn't the struggle of loss and war already inferred multiple times throughout the story? The focus of the end game is obviously being developed on a much deeper/different theme.

Midichlorians anyone? You do not need to know how exactly the force works...

This desperate need to dig up plot holes and inconsistencies from the hard core is entirely unhealthy for the series and its fans. All stories have inconsistencies, stories you tell to your friends are punched up exaggerations of what really happened. Your Facebook account is not a mirror image of the life you lead, but the life you wish you lived.

You had the chance to say goodbye to the entire main cast in one way or another. Multiple times is it mentioned/inferred that all races are about to battle the Reapers.

Needing to know a detailed resolution of what happens to everyone in the galaxy only dilutes the escapist reality the writers created.

Some things are better left to the imagination. Less is more and allowing the mind to explore possibilities is one of the great strengths of human thought.

6. In the end, it would seem the Bioware writing team effectively succeeded in what they wanted to say in the Mass Effect saga. This is something I can respect. Instead of appeasing to the vocal mob; they finished the story on their own terms.

Mass Effect became a tale about cultural synthesis. The Mass Effect team was finally able to find this series a voice. Knowing this, makes me content that I have finished this series in its entirety; in the way it was meant to be seen.

And I enjoyed every minute of it.

Modifié par MintyCool, 22 mars 2012 - 03:32 .

[Mnementh2230]

Your preferred ending still has plot holes so big you can fly a Reaper through them.

[CavScout]

Jagri wrote...

Oh how about this group donates to charity too? Lets see something fitting...

International Child Art Foundation
http://www.icaf.org/

Might as well do something positive while spreading a message about artistic integrity right?

You should work on having integrity. If the RetakeME charity drive was just a stunt to give them cover to squash opposing ideas, they are truly are a pathetic group of folks.

I am going to assume that you and the others trying this are not representative and more than likely are part of the over 95% of RetakeME that didn't bother to donate.... just want to use the cover of doing so.

[Bendok]

With this news's, it's a major blow for Retake Mass Effect as it seems the movement has lost all momentum on all issues concerning the ending.

I'd say there's plenty of momentum when you have project directors and company presidents addressing your complaints. And we don't know for sure what's going to happen in regards to the ending until they announce their plans in April. The good news, for you pro-Enders, is it will be a downloadable thing if they do change it....so you won't have to partake (though I doubt many will be able to resist ). If it turns out to be good, you can thank the retakers later.

I respect your opinion but could not disagree with it anymore

[Lugaidster]

MeganHunter wrote...

I've only spoken with two real life friends who would be considered "pro ender," if I have it right. that's not to say there's not more, most of my friends have been too busy with work or kids to crack ME3 open like I have. But I noticed the same thing with both: neither one has gotten to the ending yet.

Online, I see much of the same. A lot of people talking about artistic integrity haven't actually seen the ending (not saying you OP) or they say "I don't see how my opinion on it is relevant." That's really, really super telling. But that's just it. I don't have a beef with anybody wanting to protect IP or not set bad precedent. Heck, I work in IP creation, of course I'm going to agree with that. But this conversation really isn't about that. It's about how this one ending in particular is soooooooo bad for so many reasons that it does their whole beautiful franchise injustice.

Artistic integrity has nothing to do with the end or it's quality or the money involved. It has to do with the vision of the creator. Changing the ending also has nothing to do with artistic integrity unless the vision of the original creator is twisted to the point where it no longers conforms with his expectations.

As an example, expanding the idea of Batman, as long as the artist's original expectations are not broken, doesn't sacrifice artistic integrity. Changing the Batman by making him a happy guy and using a white suit (really doesn't conform to the original vision of the creator) because of outsider input sacrifices artistic integrity. The concept is subjective, not objective. If bend over to the whim of another person to the point my creation no longer conforms to my original vision then I'm sacrificing my artistic integrity.

It's pretty hard to explain that concept to people that aren't involved in creative work.

I for example, am up for Bioware to expanding the end to make it work better and make more sense to me. Completely rewriting it is pointless IMO and stupid. Those that argument that Bioware has no "artistic integrity" because they put a stupid text message or DLC are just drowning in a glass of water. Of course the product is a consumer product, but there's still creative work behind. And no, we were never involved in the creative process. As much as we were labeled as co-creators, we were never co-artists.

I hope they improve the ending, but I also hope they don't bend over to the whim of some disgruntled consumers just because...

Modifié par Lugaidster, 22 mars 2012 - 03:31 .

[CavScout]

Kulthar Drax wrote...

"As for the ‘changing art’ argument, Tycho over at Penny Arcade gives
a much better counter than I can muster. In addition, Mass Effect 3 is
an interactive medium, not a static one. The joy of the series has been
being able to mold the story by your choices- it isn’t cast in stone
like a novel or painting. If we shouldn’t demand changes to the game,
does that mean we should stop asking for patches for graphical glitches
or errors? Does that mean that no one should touch up a painting? It’s
ludicrous. As well, Mass Effect is a commercial property. It was made
and distributed for profit- and as such, if a customer has a legitimate
grievance or complaint, it should be addressed. Even if Bioware said
tomorrow ‘We’re not changing the ending, sorry,’ that would be better
than the side-stepping and silence the community has received so far. In
fact, if Bioware came clean with the fans, they wouldn’t be facing a
lot of the anger they are now." - Chris Matyskiel, Robot Geek.

I am quite fond of this specific quote stated in this guy's commentary regarding Mass Effect 3's ending.

Demanding changes to artistic intent is not the same as demanding a working game (patches, bugs ect). Why the silly equivalencies?