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Checkmate: Pro-Enders - The Official Support Thread For Creative Risk and Artistic Integrity


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#676
ashdrake1

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Dreogan wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

Art is nothing more than a expression of views and opinions.  Are you saying your own thoughts on the issue would be subject to change if someone paid you for it?  That your anger at the ending meant nothing because you received money for it?  That would make it allright?


My opinion is you are wrong. You cannot change my opinion because art.


You have to try harder. You either don't understand art, it's definition or you're simply a troll.


I absolutely understand art, in all the term's meaningless definitions. You are the slow individual that cannot understand the depth of my art. It is simply too profound.



"I'd rather get a fixed ending, with a price tag attached or no price tag attached. If I personally consider it worth buying, then I will buy it."  Yup deep understanding of art.  Put pants on the Michelangelo's David to "fix" it.  You don't care a damn about art.  Just your own entitled sense of importance.

#677
Lexagg

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Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Wrong perfect analogy.......and in your fail analogy I can go back and demand it be changed...welcome to the real world


That's exactly what we are going. Going back and demanding it to be changed.

#678
rorako

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OPs argument only works if you view Mass Effect 3 as a true piece of art, and not a product, which is debatable at best.

What defines a work of art? Storytelling wise...yes, it's a work of art.

Yet, at the same time, is it a product before it's a work of art? We pay $60 for the game. Then there's the DLC. Then there's the "Buy our DLC!" not even thirty seconds after the credits finish.

All that money they expect consumers (not art appreciators) to spend on their product (not piece of art) and future DLC...no, this is a product, and consumers have every right to "complain" about their dissatisfaction with the product they received.

Also, ftr, even if it was considered art over a product, art still gets criticized.

#679
Admoniter

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CavScout wrote...

NReed106 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
I never ONCE said sunshine and roses.  I merely said that it's not the doom and demise of the galactic community.


And how is that?  The relays destroyed the Normandy how did they not destroy the Fleet at earth?


You avoided his question about you ascribing a position that he didn't take....

Secondly, we don't know what damaged the Normandy (she wasn't destroyed). And the energy released in the Destroy option is show to be harmless to buildings and organics fighting the reapers (in the good version).


Furthermore the ending relay destruction is very much different from what took place in Arrival. You would think that would be pretty clear what with earth clearly not being obliterated by a supernova level explosion in some peoples endings.

Think of it like this if I want to destroy a building I can smash a kinetic kill vehicle into it which would most likely result in debris being scattered everywhere and massive collateral damage. Or I could do a controlled demoltion which can essentially eliminate collateral damage. What we did in Arrival was the former (smashing a big ****ing rock at high speed into it.) What happens in the endings would be the latter (most likely a kill switch activated by the Citadel and propagated through the network.)

#680
OblivionDawn

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MintyCool wrote...

I can't help it if your dying movement resorts to fits of rage.


Lol.

No better troll than a deluded one.

#681
Lexagg

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ashdrake1 wrote...

"I'd rather get a fixed ending, with a price tag attached or no price tag attached. If I personally consider it worth buying, then I will buy it."  Yup deep understanding of art.  Put pants on the Michelangelo's David to "fix" it.  You don't care a damn about art.  Just your own entitled sense of importance.


Oh look, we got an art connoisseur here who just compared Mass Effect to Michelangelo.
Just so you know, mr. Art Proffesor, art was changed due to feedback A LOT. Until the emergence of bucket of crap we call "modern art".

#682
Lugaidster

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Dreogan wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

Art is nothing more than a expression of views and opinions.  Are you saying your own thoughts on the issue would be subject to change if someone paid you for it?  That your anger at the ending meant nothing because you received money for it?  That would make it allright?


My opinion is you are wrong. You cannot change my opinion because art.


You have to try harder. You either don't understand art, it's definition or you're simply a troll.


I absolutely understand art, in all the term's meaningless definitions. You are the slow individual that cannot understand the depth of my art. It is simply too profound.


Suuuuuure, let's go with that Image IPB

#683
Lugaidster

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Lexagg wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

"I'd rather get a fixed ending, with a price tag attached or no price tag attached. If I personally consider it worth buying, then I will buy it."  Yup deep understanding of art.  Put pants on the Michelangelo's David to "fix" it.  You don't care a damn about art.  Just your own entitled sense of importance.


Oh look, we got an art connoisseur here who just compared Mass Effect to Michelangelo.
Just so you know, mr. Art Proffesor, art was changed due to feedback A LOT. Until the emergence of bucket of crap we call "modern art".


There's a very subtle difference between changing art due to feedback and changing it to the point it sacrifices artistic integrity. If you can't see it, you have to pull your head outta you ***.

#684
Cloaking_Thane

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Lexagg wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Wrong perfect analogy.......and in your fail analogy I can go back and demand it be changed...welcome to the real world


That's exactly what we are going. Going back and demanding it to be changed.


Sure and if they refuse then you can do several things

never buy bioware again

attempt to recoup $ through several means

Pursue legal means, etc.

Artistic liscence only gets you so far. EA is in lawsuits up to its eyeballs, specifically EASports due to this very reason and several others

#685
CavScout

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durasteel wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Nearly any solution the Crucible + Catalyst was going to have was going to "magical". You basically were expecting it to stop all Reapers in the Galaxy once completed.


I imagined it would function on the principle of indoctrination, actually. The Illusive Man had been making such a big deal about reverse-indoctrination and controling the reapers that I imagined it would broadcast a shutdown signal and leave the Reapers vulnerable for a period of time so that the biggest fleet in ever could pew pew pew.


In the end, depending on the ending you went for, it basically was a big broadcast signal that used the relays to propagate.

#686
Suraxis

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lol *puts on hipster glasses* u no understand art.

#687
The Real Bowser

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I'm happy for you, but I completely and entirely disagree with everything in your thread, down to the simple thoughts that 'the momentum is shifting'. It isn't. You're not 'winning', but our goal isn't to make you 'lose'.

#688
Dreogan

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ashdrake1 wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

Art is nothing more than a expression of views and opinions.  Are you saying your own thoughts on the issue would be subject to change if someone paid you for it?  That your anger at the ending meant nothing because you received money for it?  That would make it allright?


My opinion is you are wrong. You cannot change my opinion because art.


You have to try harder. You either don't understand art, it's definition or you're simply a troll.


I absolutely understand art, in all the term's meaningless definitions. You are the slow individual that cannot understand the depth of my art. It is simply too profound.



"I'd rather get a fixed ending, with a price tag attached or no price tag attached. If I personally consider it worth buying, then I will buy it."  Yup deep understanding of art.  Put pants on the Michelangelo's David to "fix" it.  You don't care a damn about art.  Just your own entitled sense of importance.


Did you seriously just compare the end to Mass Effect to the David? 

Please, let me sit down before you answer that.

#689
ashdrake1

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rorako wrote...

OPs argument only works if you view Mass Effect 3 as a true piece of art, and not a product, which is debatable at best.

What defines a work of art? Storytelling wise...yes, it's a work of art.

Yet, at the same time, is it a product before it's a work of art? We pay $60 for the game. Then there's the DLC. Then there's the "Buy our DLC!" not even thirty seconds after the credits finish.

All that money they expect consumers (not art appreciators) to spend on their product (not piece of art) and future DLC...no, this is a product, and consumers have every right to "complain" about their dissatisfaction with the product they received.

Also, ftr, even if it was considered art over a product, art still gets criticized.


Also, ftr, even if it was considered art over a product, art still gets criticized.  This.  So much this.  How many critics demand a artist alter thier work?  It's one thing not to like and or get someones art.  However telling them thier work is flawed and must be fixed I.E. altered to skew with the critics view of art.  That is not the work of a critic.  

This movement is not criticizing, they are demanding the writer change his story.   I have never witnessed any critic do this.

#690
Hearnishere123

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 All Retake Mass Effect members Please leave this thread. I know you are just trying to point out what we think makes them wrong, but by doing this you are adding Fuel to the fire, proveing them right about us being crazy or Flamers. If you can not reply without insulting these people then your no better than Trolls. I am sorry to say that, but it is true. They have the right to this thread even if then post the link on out threads. We must stand fast, not let anger control us, and KEEP HOLDING THE LINE! But from what I have seen, most of yall are not Holding The Line, but chargeing into battle. This shouldnt be our way, you all should know this, fighting will lead to both sides voices being unheard by others.

Retakers: Be kind or go watch youtube.

Pro-enders: I respect your right to what you think, but may I ask so kindly not to post on other threads with this threads link saying that:

MintyCool wrote...

Retake has failed: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9870213/1


You may think that, but that doesnt give you the right to go to peaceful threads and post this, causeing people to become anger and attack this thread. All it is doing is takeing away the stool in which you stand on. It basic trolling sadly. I am not say you are trolls, you all might have done it without thinking, but none-the-less it is what it is.

I hope both sides calm down soon. We can hate eachother, disagree with eachother, but when we start fighting, we are no better then rabid aninals,

Hold The Line...

Modifié par Hearnishere123, 22 mars 2012 - 03:38 .


#691
Lugaidster

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Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Lexagg wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Wrong perfect analogy.......and in your fail analogy I can go back and demand it be changed...welcome to the real world


That's exactly what we are going. Going back and demanding it to be changed.


Sure and if they refuse then you can do several things

never buy bioware again

attempt to recoup $ through several means

Pursue legal means, etc.

Artistic liscence only gets you so far. EA is in lawsuits up to its eyeballs, specifically EASports due to this very reason and several others


I bet you 1000000 dollars you wouldn't be able to win this lawsuit. At most you'll get a refund, which you already can.

#692
Lexagg

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Lugaidster wrote...

There's a very subtle difference between changing art due to feedback and changing it to the point it sacrifices artistic integrity. If you can't see it, you have to pull your head outta you ***.


You can only sacrifice artistic integrity if you HAVE artistic integrity in the first place, which ME3 does not, so it's all moot. Furthermore, as I said before, "artistic integrity" shouldn't be used as an excuse to make bad product or to LIE TO CUSTOMERS.

#693
ashdrake1

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Lexagg wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

"I'd rather get a fixed ending, with a price tag attached or no price tag attached. If I personally consider it worth buying, then I will buy it."  Yup deep understanding of art.  Put pants on the Michelangelo's David to "fix" it.  You don't care a damn about art.  Just your own entitled sense of importance.


Oh look, we got an art connoisseur here who just compared Mass Effect to Michelangelo.
Just so you know, mr. Art Proffesor, art was changed due to feedback A LOT. Until the emergence of bucket of crap we call "modern art".


Feedback from the creative team.  Kinda the whole point.

#694
KTheAlchemist

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ashdrake1 wrote...

KTheAlchemist wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

KTheAlchemist wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

You don't think at all a ending that is "forced" upon us is a tool to keep telling a story.  Shepards story may be done, but they have stated the setting will continue, and that we should keep our saves.  It as it always has been with every game in the series.  The ending is always the same, but the choices you make affect the story as it goes.


It doesn't really function in that capacity, though.

Let's say for the sake of argument that this doesn't create a devastated galaxy that is incapable of functioning (which goes back into plot holes, but okay). Let's say that they eventually create better FTL drives and the galaxy sloooowly creeps back up to where it once was and is a place where you could have a game of somewhat similar scope to ME1-3.

You've still got "Is everyone hybrid synthetic?", "Are all synthetics dead?" and "Are the reapers still around under the control of some weird disembodied Shepard-consciousness?". Three things that would grossly change the face of a future ME title to the point that it would probably be beyond even Bioware's means to create such a game.

Given this ending as is, if shepard's story ends and we go on to other stories in this universe that take place later, they're going to have to create a "canon ending" as far as that NEW series of games goes. Forcing us into a tunnel at the end doesn't solve that in any way. It actually makes the problem worse. A universe that's pretty much the same a hundred years into the future to what it is now, is much easier to work around and work player choices into in some fashion than a galaxy whose entire face is changed.

Meanwhile, my and many people's real problem with all this remains: If you're going to ram everything down to 3 off-the-peg choices in pursuit of some philosophical "point", you'd better not promise people something wildly different from what you're planning to deliver.


It really doesn't though.  It's pretty easy to write through.  Reapers never return.  Shepard basically  becomes a god in the control option.  Does not see a reason to return.   Synthesis convinces the reapers they are no longer needed and destroy is obvios.  No need for reapers.  

Even with the destroy option, godchild states we will still create synthetics.  So you do a skin swap for any robot people and change some dialoge.  Same for the synthesis.  It's not like these will be active topics if the place the next game a 1000 years from now.


Actually the problem is that they WILL be an active topic 1000 years from now. You do realize that the "robot people" you're talking about reskinning would be, in the case of a "synthesis" future scenario, every single living being in the galaxy, right? That's basically an entire 2nd set of art assets that only exists if you chose synthesis. Compare this to a history where Shepard saved the galaxy (since obviously a total failure ending would have to be non-canon if you're playing a future game) , but the differences are more did Shepard live, did Shepard die, what became of his crew members, et cetera. They're not saving themselves work or making future games somehow easier in any way with this...if anything we're more likely to get a "canon" ending.




Why?  Are they going to bring up we are half robot all the time a 1000 years after it happens?  Does the Fall of the roman empire come up all the time in day to day conversation?  All it requires is a simple skin change(as seen in the ending) some off comments and perhaps some diffrent codex entries.


The fall of the roman empire didnt' cause us all to be drastically different in appearance. You're talking about a few characters reskinned vs. nearly the entire cast of the game. Not to mention potential drastic changes to the entire outlook of the galaxy on many issues to the point you would realistically end up with drastically different plots.

At any rate, I'm not sure how any of this creates LESS work than "millenia ago shepard saved the galaxy, and he/she died in the battle / lived to a ripe old age  / was killed 5 years later doing mercenary work / et cetera."

While all of this is kind of fun to discuss, though, it's still a distraction from what I think is a really key point: If this is what Bioware wanted to do, they shouldn't have promised something completely different than what they planned to deliver.

#695
RaptorZefier

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. . .You know if no one posted in here arguing this person's POV which they obviously wont move from this thread would probably be dead already right? All you're doing by arguing the OP's opinion is bumping this thing to high heaven.

#696
CavScout

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Vaktathi wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Mahrac wrote...
the point of keeping the planet was to rebuild it. later it was because it offered a better base of operations for self-defense. They CAN live anywhere, but they won't be able to stay anywhere unless the quarians are willing to try for peace


The Quarians just want their homeworld back. The Geth could have tried for peace and bailed on that planet a long time ago. They didn't. Instead they killed anyone who came poking around their territory. Then you had some decided to help Sovereign out.

They seemed pretty willing to allow the Quarrians back since at least ME2, they always pretty much seemed to not mind the Quarrians coming back as long as they didn't try to kill them again. 


When where the Quarians allowed back in ME2?

#697
Cloaking_Thane

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Lugaidster wrote...

Lexagg wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

"I'd rather get a fixed ending, with a price tag attached or no price tag attached. If I personally consider it worth buying, then I will buy it."  Yup deep understanding of art.  Put pants on the Michelangelo's David to "fix" it.  You don't care a damn about art.  Just your own entitled sense of importance.


Oh look, we got an art connoisseur here who just compared Mass Effect to Michelangelo.
Just so you know, mr. Art Proffesor, art was changed due to feedback A LOT. Until the emergence of bucket of crap we call "modern art".


There's a very subtle difference between changing art due to feedback and changing it to the point it sacrifices artistic integrity. If you can't see it, you have to pull your head outta you ***.


If you're taking in Several millions of dollars through a for profit corporation through microtransactions after making verbal promises on what you were delivering..............things change

CONTEXT MATTERS

#698
Lexagg

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ashdrake1 wrote...


Also, ftr, even if it was considered art over a product, art still gets criticized.  This.  So much this.  How many critics demand a artist alter thier work?  It's one thing not to like and or get someones art.  However telling them thier work is flawed and must be fixed I.E. altered to skew with the critics view of art.  That is not the work of a critic.  

This movement is not criticizing, they are demanding the writer change his story.   I have never witnessed any critic do this.




We are not critics. We are customers.

#699
Lugaidster

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Dreogan wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

Art is nothing more than a expression of views and opinions.  Are you saying your own thoughts on the issue would be subject to change if someone paid you for it?  That your anger at the ending meant nothing because you received money for it?  That would make it allright?


My opinion is you are wrong. You cannot change my opinion because art.


You have to try harder. You either don't understand art, it's definition or you're simply a troll.


I absolutely understand art, in all the term's meaningless definitions. You are the slow individual that cannot understand the depth of my art. It is simply too profound.



"I'd rather get a fixed ending, with a price tag attached or no price tag attached. If I personally consider it worth buying, then I will buy it."  Yup deep understanding of art.  Put pants on the Michelangelo's David to "fix" it.  You don't care a damn about art.  Just your own entitled sense of importance.


Did you seriously just compare the end to Mass Effect to the David? 

Please, let me sit down before you answer that.


Art is subjective. As such, it can be compared with other forms of art. If you don't understand that word, you have bigger issues.

#700
Mahrac

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CavScout wrote...

durasteel wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Nearly any solution the Crucible + Catalyst was going to have was going to "magical". You basically were expecting it to stop all Reapers in the Galaxy once completed.


I imagined it would function on the principle of indoctrination, actually. The Illusive Man had been making such a big deal about reverse-indoctrination and controling the reapers that I imagined it would broadcast a shutdown signal and leave the Reapers vulnerable for a period of time so that the biggest fleet in ever could pew pew pew.


In the end, depending on the ending you went for, it basically was a big broadcast signal that used the relays to propagate.

which still leaves no rhyme or reason for the relays to explode