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Checkmate: Pro-Enders - The Official Support Thread For Creative Risk and Artistic Integrity


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#151
Hearnishere123

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MintyCool wrote...

Pro-Enders Update:

Thank you for the continued flow of support/links through pm. Yes, I know I'm being attacked by Retake and will respond in due time. A paragraph of logic is not going to change weeks of indoctrination. They do this because they feel threatened. Right now just updating the links you sent me. Continue to pm me any information you find.

The industry, public, and momentum is on our side.

Industry Support Update:


Game Informer: www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/03/21/hey-bioware-while-you-39-re-at-it.aspx




Well Try these
Media links - discussion of the endings

Dave Thier, Contributor, Forbes.com - Why Fans Are So Angry About the Mass Effect 3 Ending

Erik Kain, Contributor, Forbes.com - Mass Effect 3 And The Pernicious Myth Of Gamer 'Entitlement'

Jeremy Jahns, www.jeremyjahns.com/youtube.com - Mass Effect 3 Ending and Why We Hate It!

Chris Matyskiel, Robot Geek - Why the 'Retake Mass Effect 3' Movement is Making History

Ross Lincoln, Game Front - Mass Effect 3 Ending-Hatred: 5 Reasons The Fans Are Right

Susan Schreck, Neoseeker - 'Retake Mass Effect' movement earns over $30k for Child's Play Charity in 24 hours

Alex Cranz, FemPop Magazine - Yes, The Ending Of Mass Effect 3 Can Be Kind Of Perfect

Cody Franklin, The Daily Aztec - 'Mass Effect 3' finale massively disappoints

Ethan Powers, Attack of the Fanboy - If the Mass Effect 3 Ending is truly not what it seems, it still sucks

Crosscade, youtube.com - Ending Movie Comparison - All The Colors

Erik Kain, Contributor, Forbes - Paragons of Protest: Retake Mass Effect Raises Money For Kids

Jeff Schille, Game Rant - Retake ‘Mass Effect 3′ Petition Raises Money For Child’s Play

Chris Matyskiel, Robot Geek - Editorial: Killing Them With Kindness

stacy71477, youtube.com - Mass Effect 3 Ending - Parody

felix.seth.1, The Metagames - Why you enjoy art and the one problem with Mass Effect 3

Mark Butler, FMV Magazine - BioWare's Biggest Mistake

Becky Chambers, The Mary Sue - Everything You Need to Know About the Mass Effect 3 Ending Controversy, as Spoiler Free as Possible

Any words on that? :/

#152
crimsontotem

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From a business stand point, anyone who support this ending and not demanding a change doesn't know a THING about business. Seriously.....

#153
cchudoba002

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I am definitely not an ending supporter...but have to laugh a little at both sides. Here is this pro-ending person claiming that their side was vindicated today, while numberous other threads and even IGN have claimed the exact opposite since the announcement. All of you should realize that the announcement didn't commit to anything specific. They are basically trying to keep as many people happy as possible, and you probably won't know who "won" if anyone until the supposed announcement in April, or maybe even not until the actual product comes out. I get the vibe that Bioware is shooting for compromise. It's a lofty goal if it's indeed the truth, but most attempts to satisfy everyone end up satisfying no one. I have a feeling this will end badly for everyone, but I will hold the line lol

#154
Quietness

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i'll just leave this here....

Matthius299 Wrote... Video games, art or not, are created with the intention of selling to a consumer. The consumer has every right to critique the product they receive. Mass Effect 3 was not art for art's sake, it was art produced to be consumed. Many argue that asking for a different ending sets a bad precedent, and asking the artist to alter their work is inappropriate. Historically speaking this is not uncommon in art or setting any precedent good or bad. The precedent has already been set. Lets look at some examples: 


Great expectations by Charles Dickens: At the end of the original version Pip meets Estella on the streets, who has remarried after her abusive husband has died. Pip says that he is glad she is a different person now from the coldhearted girl Miss Havisham reared her to be and that "suffering had been stronger than Miss Havisham's teaching and had given her a heart to understand what my heart used to be." Pip remains single. Following comments by Wilkie Collins that the ending was too sad, Dickens rewrote the ending so that Pip now meets Estella after the death of her husband in the ruins of Satis House with the suggestion that they will marry. Early 20th century writers including John Forster, George Bernard Shaw and George Orwell felt that the original ending was "more consistent with the draft, as well as the natural working out of the tale"; modern literary criticism tends to support the more common second ending. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Expectations 


Sherlock Holmes novels by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle: Wanting to devote more time to his historical novels, he killed off Holmes in "The Final Problem," which appeared in print in 1893. After resisting public pressure for eight years, the author wrote The Hound of the Baskervilles, which appeared in 1901. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes 
Little Shop of Horrors the film: The original conclusion to the off-Broadway musical was filmed and preferred by Frank Oz the director and the majority of the actors. However, test audiences disliked how Audrey and Seymour, the main protagonists, were both killed by the evil alien plant, and the ending had to be re-shot so that their deaths were removed. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_ending 


Some of the world's greatest artists changed their work or others changed it after they finished because the consumer demanded it. The infamous "fig-leaf campaign" of the Counter-Reformation, aiming to cover all representations of human genitals in paintings and sculptures, started with Michelangelo's works. To give two examples, the marble statue of Cristo della Minerva (church of Santa Maria sopra Minerva, Rome) was covered by added drapery, as it remains today, and the statue of the naked child Jesus in Madonna of Bruges (The Church of Our Lady in Bruges, Belgium) remained covered for several decades. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelangelo 


The music industry's "clean versions" are in response to consumer demand. These are just a few of the many examples of "art" that was changed because of consumer demand. The argument that gamers are being "entitled brats" is hardly truthful or relevant. 


Truthfully these "entitled gamers" may be entitled to a more satisfying ending. This entitlement has been created by Bioware itself. 


Mike Gamble (Associate Producer): “And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as much as we are anyway.” www.computerandvideogames.com...issing-in-me2/ 


“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any more than that…” http://www.360magazi...erent-endings/ 


Casey Hudson (Director): “For people who are invested in these characters and the back-story of the universe and everything, all of these things come to a resolution in Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different based on what you would do in those situations.” http://www.gameinfor...-effect-3.aspx 
“Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with the fans. We use a lot of feedback.” http://venturebeat.c...ans-interview/ 

One could argue that gamers are "entitled" to an ending based on these statements made by the producer of this piece of "art". 


TL;DR Saying a new ending sets a bad precedent for games as an art form is incorrect. Art has been changed based on consumer input for centuries. Gamers are entitled to a different ending more in line with what Bioware itself promised.


 Casey Hudson Says.....
“Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with
the fans. We use a lot of feedback.”
 


Modifié par Quietness, 22 mars 2012 - 12:32 .


#155
Costin_Razvan

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Nice post OP, very good read.

#156
LordHelfort

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Topic discussion about the Deus Ex endings should be relegated to a different forum.

#157
KaiVanVlack

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Pretty sure the problem is not that we want more than what Bioware planned to give but that they didn't deliver what THEY said they would.

#158
MintyCool

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Costin_Razvan wrote...

Nice post OP, very good read.


Thanks.

#159
iorveth1271

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Quietness wrote...

i'll just leave this here....

Matthius299 Wrote... Video games, art or not, are created with the intention of selling to a consumer. The consumer has every right to critique the product they receive. Mass Effect 3 was not art for art's sake, it was art produced to be consumed. Many argue that asking for a different ending sets a bad precedent, and asking the artist to alter their work is inappropriate. Historically speaking this is not uncommon in art or setting any precedent good or bad. The precedent has already been set. Lets look at some examples: 


Great expectations by Charles Dickens: At the end of the original version Pip meets Estella on the streets, who has remarried after her abusive husband has died. Pip says that he is glad she is a different person now from the coldhearted girl Miss Havisham reared her to be and that "suffering had been stronger than Miss Havisham's teaching and had given her a heart to understand what my heart used to be." Pip remains single. Following comments by Wilkie Collins that the ending was too sad, Dickens rewrote the ending so that Pip now meets Estella after the death of her husband in the ruins of Satis House with the suggestion that they will marry. Early 20th century writers including John Forster, George Bernard Shaw and George Orwell felt that the original ending was "more consistent with the draft, as well as the natural working out of the tale"; modern literary criticism tends to support the more common second ending. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Expectations 


Sherlock Holmes novels by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle: Wanting to devote more time to his historical novels, he killed off Holmes in "The Final Problem," which appeared in print in 1893. After resisting public pressure for eight years, the author wrote The Hound of the Baskervilles, which appeared in 1901. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes 
Little Shop of Horrors the film: The original conclusion to the off-Broadway musical was filmed and preferred by Frank Oz the director and the majority of the actors. However, test audiences disliked how Audrey and Seymour, the main protagonists, were both killed by the evil alien plant, and the ending had to be re-shot so that their deaths were removed. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_ending 


Some of the world's greatest artists changed their work or others changed it after they finished because the consumer demanded it. The infamous "fig-leaf campaign" of the Counter-Reformation, aiming to cover all representations of human genitals in paintings and sculptures, started with Michelangelo's works. To give two examples, the marble statue of Cristo della Minerva (church of Santa Maria sopra Minerva, Rome) was covered by added drapery, as it remains today, and the statue of the naked child Jesus in Madonna of Bruges (The Church of Our Lady in Bruges, Belgium) remained covered for several decades. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelangelo 


The music industry's "clean versions" are in response to consumer demand. These are just a few of the many examples of "art" that was changed because of consumer demand. The argument that gamers are being "entitled brats" is hardly truthful or relevant. 


Truthfully these "entitled gamers" may be entitled to a more satisfying ending. This entitlement has been created by Bioware itself. 


Mike Gamble (Associate Producer): “And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as much as we are anyway.” www.computerandvideogames.com...issing-in-me2/ 


“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any more than that…” http://www.360magazi...erent-endings/ 


Casey Hudson (Director): “For people who are invested in these characters and the back-story of the universe and everything, all of these things come to a resolution in Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different based on what you would do in those situations.” http://www.gameinfor...-effect-3.aspx 
“Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with the fans. We use a lot of feedback.” http://venturebeat.c...ans-interview/ 

One could argue that gamers are "entitled" to an ending based on these statements made by the producer of this piece of "art". 


TL;DR Saying a new ending sets a bad precedent for games as an art form is incorrect. Art has been changed based on consumer input for centuries. Gamers are entitled to a different ending more in line with what Bioware itself promised.


 Casey Hudson Says.....
“Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with
the fans. We use a lot of feedback.”
 



This!

#160
chris fenton

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Okay? The whole point of the "hold the line" thing is to hold unto hope when there is little.

Nothing's changed.

#161
aliengmr1

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I guess people are ok the fanbase not having a voice. Narrow-mindedness can be just as harmful. I wonder what gamers would say if devs stop asking for opinions entirely and just move on to the next thing. Maybe they start getting rid of mod tools, since that is defacing great works of art...yes? Retake gave gamers a voice. So the Checkmate movement aims to take the voice away from gamers? Oddly ironic.

I hope Bioware listens to you....Ohh right, the goal is for them to ignore your feedback. Well good luck with that.

#162
GodChildInTheMachine

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MintyCool wrote...

Pro-Enders Update:

Thank you for the continued flow of support/links through pm. Yes, I know I'm being attacked by Retake and will respond in due time. A paragraph of logic is not going to change weeks of indoctrination. They do this because they feel threatened. Right now just updating the links you sent me. Continue to pm me any information you find.

The industry, public, and momentum is on our side.

Industry Support Update:


Game Informer: www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/03/21/hey-bioware-while-you-39-re-at-it.aspx








You go out of your way to present yourself as more intellectually superior and honest than I am, yet you will not respond to individuals who are posting thoughtful counterpoints to your argument. All I see you doing is an earnest effort at self-promotion.

Well, this is a hard thing for some people to learn, but preening one's own ego does not in itself constitute anything productive or meritorious. That being said, by all means continue.

#163
RiouHotaru

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Thank god, a place where the pro-enders can gather. I was starting to feel a bit like a stranger in a hostile country. Here. And it's good that you can provide a place for people like myself to get our message out as well. If the Retake movement can claim that they're important and that they should be heard, then there's no reasons the Pro-Enders can't be heard as well. We're just as important.

#164
Stonesoundjam

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Cliff notes -

All bad, unpopular endings are arty and full of creative integrity

All good, popular endings are corporate and without artistic backbone.


See: The Empire Strikes Back, Fight Club, Titanic, King Kong.

#165
tenojitsu

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Guys, we have our threads. they have theirs. Seems fair to me. If you dont want the pro-enders to be heard just leave them be and stop bumping the thread for them

#166
Guest_Vurculac_*

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MintyCool wrote...

Checkmate: Pro-Enders - The Official Support Thread For Creative Risk and Artistic Integrity


Pro-Enders Mission:

We defend creative risk and artistic integrity in all mediums of art.

We feel it's not the public's right to demand that the fiction of the Mass Effect Universe be altered just because they disagree with narratives conclusion. If changes are made to the fiction; we feel the repercussions will send devastating ripples throughout the entire industry.

We support artistic integrity by respecting the Mass Effect narrative in its original entirety.

Continue to check back for more updates, news, and more.




Support Us: A paragraph of logic is not going to change weeks of indoctrination. If you wish to contribute please pm me a link of whatever relevant information you find.


Pro-Ender News:

Pro-Enders claim a major victory today after Bioware Co-founder, Dr. Ray Muzyka confirms the Crucible/Cultural Synthesis narrative will be forever ingrained into the Mass Effect lore.

Dr. Ray Muzyka announced that the Crucible/Cultural Synthesis narrative will receive major updates with future DLC in an attempt to clarify the ending.

With this news's, it's a major blow for Retake Mass Effect as it seems the movement has lost all momentum on all issues concerning the ending.

Dr. Ray Muzyka wrote...
As co-founder and GM of BioWare, I’m very proud of the ME3 team; I personally believe Mass Effect 3 is the best work we’ve yet created. So, it’s incredibly painful to receive feedback from our core fans that the game’s endings were not up to their expectations. Our first instinct is to defend our work and point to the high ratings offered by critics – but out of respect to our fans, we need to accept the criticism and feedback with humility.

I believe passionately that games are an art form, and that the power of our medium flows from our audience, who are deeply involved in how the story unfolds, and who have the uncontested right to provide constructive criticism. At the same time, I also believe in and support the artistic choices made by the development team. The team and I have been thinking hard about how to best address the comments on ME3’s endings from players, while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the game.

Mass Effect 3 concludes a trilogy with so much player control and ownership of the story that it was hard for us to predict the range of emotions players would feel when they finished playing through it. The journey you undertake in Mass Effect provokes an intense range of highly personal emotions in the player; even so, the passionate reaction of some of our most loyal players to the current endings in Mass Effect 3 is something that has genuinely surprised us. This is an issue we care about deeply, and we will respond to it in a fair and timely way. We’re already working hard to do that.

To that end, since the game launched, the team has been poring over everything they can find about reactions to the game – industry press, forums, Facebook, and Twitter, just to name a few. The Mass Effect team, like other teams across the BioWare Label within EA, consists of passionate people who work hard for the love of creating experiences that excite and delight our fans. I’m honored to work with them because they have the courage and strength to respond to constructive feedback.

Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April. We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received. This is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue.
The reaction to the release of Mass Effect 3 has been unprecedented. On one hand, some of our loyal fans are passionately expressing their displeasure about how their game concluded; we care about this feedback, and we’re planning to directly address it. However, most folks appear to agree that the game as a whole is exceptional, with more than 75 critics giving it a perfect review score and a review average in the mid-90s. Net, I’m proud of the team, but we can and must always strive to do better.

Some of the criticism that has been delivered in the heat of passion by our most ardent fans, even if founded on valid principles, such as seeking more clarity to questions or looking for more closure, for example – has unfortunately become destructive rather than constructive. We listen and will respond to constructive criticism, but much as we will not tolerate individual attacks on our team members, we will not support or respond to destructive commentary.
If you are a Mass Effect fan and have input for the team – we respect your opinion and want to hear it. We’re committed to address your constructive feedback as best we can. In return, I’d ask that you help us do that by supporting what I truly believe is the best game BioWare has yet crafted. I urge you to do your own research: play the game, finish it and tell us what you think. Tell your friends if you feel it’s a good game as a whole. Trust that we are doing our damndest, as always, to address your feedback. As artists, we care about our fans deeply and we appreciate your support.

Thank you for your feedback – we are listening.


More updates soon.



Why We Feel the Ending Works:

1. Shepard, war torn and exhausted, leaped into the crucibles energy source sacrificing his life to intertwine existences between synthetics and organics.

A few hours ago, this is how my tale ended after five years of Mass Effect; and I was quite satisfied with the ending.

2. The writing team behind Mass Effect 3 was able to elevate the narrative premise by weaving a philosophical debate about the relationship between organic and synthetic coexistence. The entire story throughout the third addition is laced with the ideas of life, harmony, and self preservation.

More than ever, the story has morphed into a game about big themes and big ideas.

Just some of the thoughts explored throughout this game...

EDI and free will, Synthetic dominance, Lineage, Genophage, Causality, Geth/quarian conflict, Determinism, Legacy - Miranda's father, Synchronicity and Kaiden, False Theology-Asari Prothean Gods, personal fulfillment, etc.

Compared to the previous installments that may have skimmed over some of these topics, all the philosophical and sociological debates/conflicts in this iteration have the main goal of bolstering the main theme of Mass Effect 3,

The existence of The Creators vs. The Created.

3. Two camps are formed because of this instance. The story the writers wish to tell, and the fans who feel entitled to observe the story they themselves envisioned.

The writers, it seems, realized the message that they wanted people to take from this third installment. This had the team shifting the narrative focus to a more elevated dynamic.

The coexistence of Synthetics vs. Organics.

4. To this end, Mass Effect 3 succeeds in weaving a narrative from beginning to end. To say otherwise is disingenuous.

Philosophical themes trounce the Neanderthal-dopamine induced urges people wish to see in this addition. Especially in the end game where this theme becomes the stories main focal point.

Honestly is a cameo appearance from Wrex for the 50th time really going to add anything to the finality of this story? No.

5. Unfortunately I find a Star Wars Syndrome happening with this series. A fan base digesting every bit of corn fructose they can gulp down. Needing everything to be spelled out; desperate to know every last bit of information.

Why must one need to see Tali's face? Why do we need to know a detailed history of the Protheans? How come we need to see the Rachni and Krogan attack the enemy? Isn't the struggle of loss and war already inferred multiple times throughout the story? The focus of the end game is obviously being developed on a much deeper/different theme.

Midichlorians anyone? You do not need to know how exactly the force works...

This desperate need to dig up plot holes and inconsistencies from the hard core is entirely unhealthy for the series and its fans. All stories have inconsistencies, stories you tell to your friends are punched up exaggerations of what really happened. Your Facebook account is not a mirror image of the life you lead, but the life you wish you lived.

You had the chance to say goodbye to the entire main cast in one way or another. Multiple times is it mentioned/inferred that all races are about to battle the Reapers.

Needing to know a detailed resolution of what happens to everyone in the galaxy only dilutes the escapist reality the writers created.

Some things are better left to the imagination. Less is more and allowing the mind to explore possibilities is one of the great strengths of human thought.

6. In the end, it would seem the Bioware writing team effectively succeeded in what they wanted to say in the Mass Effect saga. This is something I can respect. Instead of appeasing to the vocal mob; they finished the story on their own terms.

Mass Effect became a tale about cultural synthesis. The Mass Effect team was finally able to find this series a voice. Knowing this, makes me content that I have finished this series in its entirety; in the way it was meant to be seen.

And I enjoyed every minute of it.



Retake Mass Effects continued Steps into Complete Absurdity:

Retake Mass Effect Member has filed a FTC Complaint:
http://www.pcmag.com...,2401775,00.asp

Retake Mass Effect Creates Spook Conspiracies Only to further the fringe's Rage:
http://social.biowar...5/index/9727423

The Retake Movement Claims They are "Entitled" to a New Ending:
http://social.biowar...-9909123-1.html

The Retake Movement continues to repeatedly harass game Devs of ME3 over twitter, Facebook, and other social media.

The Retake movement has created a fake PR campaign thread to boost propaganda.

More updates soon.



Industry Supporters of the Ending:

BioShock Creator Ken Levine: http://www.digitalsp...ken-levine.html

Penny Arcades Ben Kuchera:
http://www.penny-arc...the-series-mass

Kotaku: http://www.kotaku.co...ver-be-changed/

IGN: http://pc.ign.com/ar.../1219446p1.html

Colin Moriarty: http://www.ign.com/v...3-opinion-video

ThumbCulture: http://thumb-culture...n-mass-effects/

Destructoid: http://www.destructo...ew-223218.phtml

Daniel Starky: http://www.destructo...wn-223966.phtml

Shack News
: http://www.shacknews...effect-3-review

Garnett Lee: http://www.shacknews...-gdc-remainders

Jeff Cannata:
http://www.shacknews...-gdc-remainders

Game Informer: www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/03/21/hey-bioware-while-you-39-re-at-it.aspx




More updates soon.

Checkmate.





Yes, a very well written and articulated post. However, it did not change my mind or opinion about how I feel about the endings. I won't get into those reasons since they have already been discussed in many other posts.

Oh, ending your post with "checkmate" just ruined the whole thing.   -That was a joke. Posted Image 

#167
parasite23

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EDI and free will [...]


Free will and Synthesis. Does not compute.

#168
MintyCool

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RiouHotaru wrote...

Thank god, a place where the pro-enders can gather. I was starting to feel a bit like a stranger in a hostile country. Here. And it's good that you can provide a place for people like myself to get our message out as well.

If the Retake movement can claim that they're important and that they should be heard, then there's no reasons the Pro-Enders can't be heard as well.

We're just as important.


^

Modifié par MintyCool, 22 mars 2012 - 12:37 .


#169
Kulthar Drax

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If you intend to sell a product to customers, you waive rights to "artistic integrity" in my opinion. Apple for instance can't falsely advertise a product and then claim "artistic integrity and license" when it fails to meet with widely advertised consumer expectations. Bioware made a product, they advertised it falsely, and parts of the product were of subpar quality. The gaming industry should be held up to a greater standard than it currently is. As one article commented, if this had been a Hollywood film for example, no way would that ending have gotten through the test audiences without being changed or added to, as it is clearly...well...total garbage compared to the relatively high quality of the rest of the product (though it still has failed to fulfil key promises made throughout development).

Modifié par Kulthar Drax, 22 mars 2012 - 12:45 .


#170
Xenite

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Awesome all 6 people who like the ending can get together and see who's more pretentious.

#171
crimzontearz

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imitation is the sincerest form of flattery


thank you for stealing the idea


oh and, Apparently you are losing.

#172
Taboo

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I haven't seen any discussion of art here in this topic.

All I have seen is a group of people who lord a sense of superiority above others.

You don't get it either and use it instead to appeal to your sense of vanity.

#173
RiouHotaru

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GodChildInTheMachine wrote...

You go out of your way to present yourself as more intellectually superior and honest than I am, yet you will not respond to individuals who are posting thoughtful counterpoints to your argument. All I see you doing is an earnest effort at self-promotion.

Well, this is a hard thing for some people to learn, but preening one's own ego does not in itself constitute anything productive or meritorious. That being said, by all means continue.


Which ironically, is the same thing the Retake movement is doing.  They act all polite and civil, but anytime someone presents them with counter-arguments they basically go "Well I don't agree, and we'll leave it at that" and then go back to patting themselves on the back over how successful their movement is.

So I guess we're just looking into a mirror now.

#174
Lugaidster

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This whole ordeal between pro-enders and anti-enders is starting to look like a religious war. It reminds me of Creationism vs Evolution Theory. Neither party will convince the other, but we all know which one's right.

#175
Allaiya

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Yuoaman wrote...

I'm sorry, but I disagree. Agreeing with the Reapers is not how I want my Shepard's story to end.


This