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Shi* -Sigh- retweeted my Gamble


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#51
Madecologist

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I read that article on Penny Arcade, and it is started to lead me to more creadence to what I said in the IGN response thread.

I have a hypothesis why video game 'journalists' are doing this. They are trying to cover their rears. Considering the outrage this game's ending caused with the fans some one had to ask the question: "Why didn't any of us forsee this?" Not one review went, "some fans may not like the ending but over all is not a bad ending and it was to be expected for the franchise." Not even that, they all praised the game from start to finish.

So someone has to be in the wrong here, these... videos and editorials are all cheap attempts to try to paint us in the wrong via using old journalism tricks. They are trying to convince the casual fans there is nothing wrong in the hopes that they don't look stupid and that we are the ones that are.

It is funny that very article had several people posting why they thought the article was... being unfair. Lisitng that the real complaints are the plotholes and scene discontinuities that occurs. Mentioned even that we are not complaining that our choices don't matter as whole (involving the whole game) but that they don't seem to matter at the very end or after the end either. A lot of people bring up the scenes that just don't make any sense up often.

What makes me sad is those scenes are technically examples of bad writing. Emotional Break and Scene Discontinuity (not to be confused with chronological continuity) are text book example of bad writing. So even if you liked the ending, these things should still stand out.

In any other media (novels, movies, TV) these things will be called up upon by critics and fans a like. In the videogame industry... they are... excused by way too many people. People that consider themselves as video game critics or journalists seem to have no understanding of what good and bad writing is. Admitingly their job is to review games, but when they start writing articles about "story" they have absolutely no clue what they are talking about anymore.

Modifié par Madecologist, 13 mars 2012 - 06:56 .


#52
GBGriffin

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WarBaby2 wrote...

Prince_Valiant wrote...

I think Mike Gamble is only teasing us. That's no serious statement from him. So we have to hang loose.  ;)


Could be... you know? It amlost seems they are enjoying this...


Enjoying it or not, I fail to see how they can just sit by and lead people on like this without heading it off.

They really have a chance to redeem themselves with each tweet, but they just keep digging themselves in deeper and deeper ;_;

#53
ShepnTali

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That '24' analogy is spot on! Someone once said the Titanic was unsinkable. Take heed Bioware.

#54
ZodiEmish

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Well I counter that with an amazing reply on the Penny Arcade Article


DEUS EX MACHINA:

You're getting your literary devices mixed up. The Crucible is not deus ex machina, it is a MacGuffin. It's largely irrelevant except as a plot device. It is the exhaust port on the Death Star.

The narrative of ME3 is not about finding the Crucible, it is about building the greatest alliance ever seen in the galaxy (which the Crucible, as a plot device, allows to happen).

Why the Catalyst AI and his Monty Hall spiel of the Adjust Hue/Saturation is a deus ex machina is that it is the resolution to the narrative. The fact that he is also literally a "god from the machine" is irrelevant, albeit ironic. He is a deus ex machina in the literary sense, i.e. a handwaved contrivance that shows up out of the blue to quickly whisk away all the dangling story threads, and to abruptly end the story.

This is abysmal writing. This is abysmal game design; a Pick Your Own Adventure book where all choices take you to the same final chapter. It is counter to everything this game is. And what is this game?

In a recent Extra Credits, Portnow discussed core elements of a game. The Mass Effect series is really not a third person shooter. It is also really not a roll-the-dice-and-level-up CRPG. Mass Effect is, at its core, interactive fiction. All the memorable moments in these games take place in cutscenes that play out in myriad ways based on prior choices. You are role-playing in the most literal sense of crafting a character's personality based on your choices. The climax of Mass Effect 2 was not shooting the Human Reaper in the eye, the climax of Mass Effect 2 were the cutscenes that played and showed the results of your actions. Did you defy TIM? Did your crewmates survive? If your choices were poor enough, you could defeat the final boss, only to make a desperate leap towards the Normandy with no one to catch you.

The desperate leap in Mass Effect 3 is your dash towards the Beam. The only input that matters at all past this point is the encounter with TIM. That encounter is true to Mass Effect, and honors your previous choices, and provides closure for the secondary antagonist.

But for the main antagonist (Reapers), nothing you did matters. You are given three arbitrary choices to solve a problem that, depending on your actions, may be proven to be a false dilemma in the first place. If you saved both the Quarians and the Geth, witnessed Legion's messianic sacrifice, and humanized EDI - the Catalyst's claim of organic/synthetic conflict being unavoidable is patently false.

The Catalyst AI is completely incongruous with the narrative and the themes of the game. It shows up, provides a complete strawman of a conflict, and then offers three vapid, plot-hole ridden resolutions to this conflict, which abruptly end the narrative in a blinding flash of Space Magic (pick your color!).

CHOICES DON'T MATTER

Again, you're missing the point. No one is complaining about the preceding 30 hours of gameplay. Choices did seem to matter. Your treatment of the Rachni queen from two games ago ended up gaining you a seemingly valuable ally. Saving Wrex can gain a hopeful future for the Krogan. Your choices regarding Legion and the Migrant Fleet in ME2 have incredibly strong consequences in the seeming conclusion of the Geth/Quarian storyline. This is why we loved the game up to the ending.

And the ending completely demolished all of it, and made it completely illusory. Who gives a **** if you saved the Rachni? They just end up giving you Space Points and don't affect your ending at all. Who gives a **** if the Quarians or Geth or both survived? They're all dead anyway. Who cares if you cured the genophage and saved the one leader who could lead the Krogan into a less brutish, more hopeful future? He's either trapped on earth or dead, and the radioactive husk that is Tuchanka cannot sustain their race without supplies anyway.

And even more egregiously, the choices you made in the development of YOUR Shepard don't matter. She acts EXACTLY the same when facing the ultimate antagonist regardless of whether she's a Space Racist Renegade or Never Surrender Paragon or whatever your Shepard actually is, and what (insert pronoun) stands for.

You accept Space Hitler's premise without argument, and dejectedly pick one of the three Slightly Less Turning Everyone Into Paste final solutions he has to offer.

How does it matter in the slightest that I've done the frickin' impossible and united the Geth and the Quarians into a hopeful future, shown that we need not fear synthetic life, seen a nascent artificial sentience freely decide to set "Love and compassion" as their main motivation, and fought for the reactionary, bleak idea of "AI will always rebel" to be proven wrong? Space Hitler shows up, says "AI will always rebel, here are drastic fixes to this undeniable problem". And I go "yessuh"?

WHY IS EVERYTHING SO SAD

It's not sad. You are being incredibly myopic and dismissive of our experiences by reducing it to "y every1 has 2 diezorz?". The ending of the story is not actually sad, it's just anticlimactic, contrived, incongruous, and ridden with plot holes.

The part that's sad and what's tearing me apart is that this is not a case of people writing themselves into a corner. This is not a case of glorified hacks like Ronald D. Moore or Cuse/Lindelof making **** up as they go along, to find themselves at the end with no way to tie all the crap together in a cathartic way.

This is a beautifully written game, for the majority of the experience. Bioware has bona fide talent within their ranks. And the story, up to the very end, is redeemable in dozens of ways. Even the contrived, out-of-the-blue Star Child could be made into an interesting character by presenting it as a shackled AI who was given a specific, limited goal born of fear (stop AI from wiping out organic life forever), and it arrived at the grotesque solution of Reapers not because AI is evil, but the constraints never allow it to look past the false dilemma it's attempting to solve.

Most importantly, this is not a TV show or a movie. This narrative is, by design, told in a unique medium which is NOT doomed to give us a singular ending. Our Shepards can be varied, yes, but there is a finite amount of paradigms that lead you to the end, and they could all have a cathartic, poignant, and persistent ending. Let the Renegades ascend to rule the galaxy. Let the Paragons defeat primitive fear and xenophobia.

I do not care if the Relays have to go down, but don't do it in such a thoughtless way as to destroy everything meaningful I accomplished. I do not care if my Shepard dies. In fact, I expected her to go down in a blaze of glory, in the greatest battle that shall ever be fought, for the most meaningful (to her) victory a soldier could ever earn. She did not get this. I did not get this.

TENS OF THOUSANDS of people didn't get this. We are not asking for a Disney ending. We are not asking for a dance party with Ewoks. We are just asking for our Big Damn Heroes to go out on their own terms, win or lose.

~unigolyn

#55
ElectronicPostingInterface

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I think some of these guys are bitter veterans who have seen fans complain and whine about the stupidest stuff, like the color of Sonic's eyes. A lot of people have cried wolf. Here? The wolf is real.

#56
bucyrus5000

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Militarized wrote...

I didn't buy The Witcher 2 because I was saving money for Mass Effect 3.... guess I made a mistake.

Oh yes, The Witcher 2 was awesome! It has 16 slightly different endings, some of which are satisfying, all of which are better than ME3. The gameplay is great, the character designs are fantastic. The only critisism I'd make is that everyone drinks vedka and only vodka, and the only insult any character ever gives any other is that they are a "son-of-a-****".

#57
UrdnotGrunty2

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If thats the real ending I guess im sticking with Blizzard. Used to enjoy Blizzard and Bioware but I guess thats just less money to spend

#58
ElectronicPostingInterface

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ShepnTali wrote...

That '24' analogy is spot on! Someone once said the Titanic was unsinkable. Take heed Bioware.

Bioware is ultimately beholden to their fans. Antognizing them is not good business, especially when it's ontop an ending like the one we got. It isn't unthinkable that Mass Effect and other Bioware IPs might be worked on by other EA Studios someday if BW loses all their customer support and trust.

#59
ChristianTh

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Thats so funny, all these media try to keep their face.
These guys made reviews that told us about the great ending of the trilogy and now they call us bunch of whiny fans while we think the ending is not the greatest of all.
Some mags have started to delete posts where this is explained. This needs no more comment. Not only they don' t know how their readers feel, they don' t even care. So why do we pay them attention? When the wind changes they will stand at our side to get even more candy (attention) and will make a frontstory about their heroic role in changing the endings of ME§.
This is the art of gamejournalism.
They say, we are the ones who need to get over it. Lets get over them, we don' t need them, ignore them. They need our attention and money to get their bills paied. So vote with your wallet, its the only language they understand.

#60
The Angry One

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Oilking72 wrote...

I love how the mob just rips anyone who might disagree with "the endings have ruined my life" scenario.

Some people need to take a serious step back.


Do you have any idea what it's like to go through your whole life not believing in anything, and finally finding something that, over 5 years, gave you hope? Gave you something stable to hang onto, something that no matter what happened in real life would always be there? Only to be destroyed in ONE INSTANT for a gratuitous nihilistic railroad ending?

If you don't, then don't be so damn quick to judge.

#61
Madecologist

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Thanks ZodEmish, that was one of the responses I was praising in my post. The other is the guy that put up a detailed list of all the discontinuities and blatant plotholes generated by the ending sequence.

#62
Bantz

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honestly if they come out and say "this is our ending deal with it" the instant i read/hear that I'm packing up my ME2 and 3, heading to gamestop and trading them in towards assassins creed 3 or something.

The guy that wrote this article is an idiot. Our choices mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. Ok so you save the quarians and geth, get a few war assets, you cure the Krogans and get their help and a little help from the STG. All this is great, it's fun, it's also POINTLESS because in the end the only effect those "hard choices" have is A) Earth destroyed, B) Earth kind of destroyed C) clean up isle New york.
That's it. This idiot didn't even mention the giant plotholes, like how do the reapers even KNOW the kid is important to shep, how/why did shep imagine the kid from the start, wtf is up with the dreams (why chase the kid and not a LI), the logic behind the reapers was crap, what about the normandy suddenly saying "screw you guys i'm getting the fk out of here" and your team magically appearing on the normandy. What about the vague ending with plot holes so big you could fly harbinger through it. But ya, the ending makes perfect sense.

@warbaby2 not sure how they could be enjoying this, they are basically watching their fanbase blow up and future sales tank. Their reputation as a company/writers go into the ****ter.

#63
morrie23

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The comments in that article make more sense than what Kuchera wrote.

#64
Guest_Prince_Valiant_*

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GBGriffin wrote...

WarBaby2 wrote...

Prince_Valiant wrote...

I think Mike Gamble is only teasing us. That's no serious statement from him. So we have to hang loose.  ;)


Could be... you know? It amlost seems they are enjoying this...


Enjoying it or not, I fail to see how they can just sit by and lead people on like this without heading it off.

They really have a chance to redeem themselves with each tweet, but they just keep digging themselves in deeper and deeper ;_;

I see two possible answers to this question:

1. They're just ignorant and don't care. (I won't believe that.)

2. They have something in petto. (That's what I hope.)

#65
Landline

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It's like they don't want my money and are trying to discourage me from buying their games.

#66
Adsinjapan

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WarBaby2 wrote...

Prince_Valiant wrote...

I think Mike Gamble is only teasing us. That's no serious statement from him. So we have to hang loose.  ;)


Could be... you know? It amlost seems they are enjoying this...


Right now none of them can afford the luxury of laughing this all off light-heartedly. They need to be knuckling down and showing us that they're taking our words seriously.

#67
Sovereign z

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I feel like setting my ME3 disc on fire. The fire will probably provide more warmth and comfort than the ending only dreams of having.

#68
Sywen

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Landline wrote...

It's like they don't want my money and are trying to discourage me from buying their games.


That's how I am feeling.

#69
Madecologist

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The Angry One wrote...

Oilking72 wrote...

I love how the mob just rips anyone who might disagree with "the endings have ruined my life" scenario.

Some people need to take a serious step back.


Do you have any idea what it's like to go through your whole life not believing in anything, and finally finding something that, over 5 years, gave you hope? Gave you something stable to hang onto, something that no matter what happened in real life would always be there? Only to be destroyed in ONE INSTANT for a gratuitous nihilistic railroad ending?

If you don't, then don't be so damn quick to judge.

Thank you Angry One, you are the emotional component to my critical attack of the endings. Basically yeah crap like this will seriously ****** off people that had a vested emotion into the product.

But the thing is, which makes it worst for me, is the ending are not bad because of "the grim" state or what not. Like some defenders believe it is. No, they are bad because they are bad writing. Pure and simple,

Seriously if people that defend the game's endings don't believe me. Register for a Writing class at any University. I can bet that within the first few lectures a lot of jazz that goes down in the ME3 ending will be covered as bad writing. Things not to do. You can assume the literary professor doesn't know what he is talking about... but then we now know why the videogame industry suffers from some of the worst writing we have seen in any medium.

#70
DoctorCrowtgamer

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Bantz wrote...

honestly if they come out and say "this is our ending deal with it" the instant i read/hear that I'm packing up my ME2 and 3, heading to gamestop and trading them in towards assassins creed 3 or something.

The guy that wrote this article is an idiot. Our choices mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. Ok so you save the quarians and geth, get a few war assets, you cure the Krogans and get their help and a little help from the STG. All this is great, it's fun, it's also POINTLESS because in the end the only effect those "hard choices" have is A) Earth destroyed, B) Earth kind of destroyed C) clean up isle New york.
That's it. This idiot didn't even mention the giant plotholes, like how do the reapers even KNOW the kid is important to shep, how/why did shep imagine the kid from the start, wtf is up with the dreams (why chase the kid and not a LI), the logic behind the reapers was crap, what about the normandy suddenly saying "screw you guys i'm getting the fk out of here" and your team magically appearing on the normandy. What about the vague ending with plot holes so big you could fly harbinger through it. But ya, the ending makes perfect sense.

@warbaby2 not sure how they could be enjoying this, they are basically watching their fanbase blow up and future sales tank. Their reputation as a company/writers go into the ****ter.


This why from now on I will not trust the gaming press and wait for fan reviews.

Oh and if this was always going to be the ending why have use work so hard to bring people together in the first place and couldn't we have just gotten these endings from Shepard's encounter with the Reaper in the first game?  Why did we need two more games to get this ending?  Answer? BSG had not finished it's run yet so Bioware couldn't rip it off.

#71
SKiLLYWiLLY2

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DoctorCrowtgamer wrote...

I have to ask Bioware. Do they think 24 would have lasted 8 seasons if season two had ended with Jack stopping the nuke by pulling out a nuke five times the size of the terrorist nuke and nuking LA just so the terrorist couldn't nuke LA?


lol

#72
yuncas

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I gotta say that hitler video in the article made me almost ****** myself.

#73
DoctorCrowtgamer

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I think hitchcock said it best. "the bomb must never go off because people need the release of seeing it stopped after all the tension". now even if you don't buy this i think you have to agree that in a game with more then one ending at least one of the endings should involve "the bomb not going off".

#74
Alamar2078

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SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

Small amount of backtracking here by Corey Gaspur on his twitter:

CGaspur
I am just posting an article folks, please be nice, I am not making a statement :}



When will folks learn that anything said will be blown up out of proportion [good or bad].   Now I know why our own PR people tell us to "clam up or be fired"

#75
Eterna

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Well looks like you guys aint going to get what you want. You may as well leave now.