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Mike Gamble is okay with Ending as is.


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#26
Lugaidster

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Tsantilas wrote...

Here's what I think is an epic response to that article by Unigolyn and pretty much sums everything up:

DEUS EX MACHINA:

You're getting your literary devices mixed up. The Crucible is not deus ex machina, it is a MacGuffin. It's largely irrelevant except as a plot device. It is the exhaust port on the Death Star.

The narrative of ME3 is not about finding the Crucible, it is about building the greatest alliance ever seen in the galaxy (which the Crucible, as a plot device, allows to happen).

Why the Catalyst AI and his Monty Hall spiel of the Adjust Hue/Saturation is a deus ex machina is that it is the resolution to the narrative. The fact that he is also literally a "god from the machine" is irrelevant, albeit ironic. He is a deus ex machina in the literary sense, i.e. a handwaved contrivance that shows up out of the blue to quickly whisk away all the dangling story threads, and to abruptly end the story.

This is abysmal writing. This is abysmal game design; a Pick Your Own Adventure book where all choices take you to the same final chapter. It is counter to everything this game is. And what is this game?

In a recent Extra Credits, Portnow discussed core elements of a game. The Mass Effect series is really not a third person shooter. It is also really not a roll-the-dice-and-level-up CRPG. Mass Effect is, at its core, interactive fiction. All the memorable moments in these games take place in cutscenes that play out in myriad ways based on prior choices. You are role-playing in the most literal sense of crafting a character's personality based on your choices. The climax of Mass Effect 2 was not shooting the Human Reaper in the eye, the climax of Mass Effect 2 were the cutscenes that played and showed the results of your actions. Did you defy TIM? Did your crewmates survive? If your choices were poor enough, you could defeat the final boss, only to make a desperate leap towards the Normandy with no one to catch you.

The desperate leap in Mass Effect 3 is your dash towards the Beam. The only input that matters at all past this point is the encounter with TIM. That encounter is true to Mass Effect, and honors your previous choices, and provides closure for the secondary antagonist.

But for the main antagonist (Reapers), nothing you did matters. You are given three arbitrary choices to solve a problem that, depending on your actions, may be proven to be a false dilemma in the first place. If you saved both the Quarians and the Geth, witnessed Legion's messianic sacrifice, and humanized EDI - the Catalyst's claim of organic/synthetic conflict being unavoidable is patently false.

The Catalyst AI is completely incongruous with the narrative and the themes of the game. It shows up, provides a complete strawman of a conflict, and then offers three vapid, plot-hole ridden resolutions to this conflict, which abruptly end the narrative in a blinding flash of Space Magic (pick your color!).

CHOICES DON'T MATTER

Again, you're missing the point. No one is complaining about the preceding 30 hours of gameplay. Choices did seem to matter. Your treatment of the Rachni queen from two games ago ended up gaining you a seemingly valuable ally. Saving Wrex can gain a hopeful future for the Krogan. Your choices regarding Legion and the Migrant Fleet in ME2 have incredibly strong consequences in the seeming conclusion of the Geth/Quarian storyline. This is why we loved the game up to the ending.

And the ending completely demolished all of it, and made it completely illusory. Who gives a **** if you saved the Rachni? They just end up giving you Space Points and don't affect your ending at all. Who gives a **** if the Quarians or Geth or both survived? They're all dead anyway. Who cares if you cured the genophage and saved the one leader who could lead the Krogan into a less brutish, more hopeful future? He's either trapped on earth or dead, and the radioactive husk that is Tuchanka cannot sustain their race without supplies anyway.

And even more egregiously, the choices you made in the development of YOUR Shepard don't matter. She acts EXACTLY the same when facing the ultimate antagonist regardless of whether she's a Space Racist Renegade or Never Surrender Paragon or whatever your Shepard actually is, and what (insert pronoun) stands for.

You accept Space Hitler's premise without argument, and dejectedly pick one of the three Slightly Less Turning Everyone Into Paste final solutions he has to offer.

How does it matter in the slightest that I've done the frickin' impossible and united the Geth and the Quarians into a hopeful future, shown that we need not fear synthetic life, seen a nascent artificial sentience freely decide to set "Love and compassion" as their main motivation, and fought for the reactionary, bleak idea of "AI will always rebel" to be proven wrong? Space Hitler shows up, says "AI will always rebel, here are drastic fixes to this undeniable problem". And I go "yessuh"?

WHY IS EVERYTHING SO SAD

It's not sad. You are being incredibly myopic and dismissive of our experiences by reducing it to "y every1 has 2 diezorz?". The ending of the story is not actually sad, it's just anticlimactic, contrived, incongruous, and ridden with plot holes.

The part that's sad and what's tearing me apart is that this is not a case of people writing themselves into a corner. This is not a case of glorified hacks like Ronald D. Moore or Cuse/Lindelof making **** up as they go along, to find themselves at the end with no way to tie all the crap together in a cathartic way.

This is a beautifully written game, for the majority of the experience. Bioware has bona fide talent within their ranks. And the story, up to the very end, is redeemable in dozens of ways. Even the contrived, out-of-the-blue Star Child could be made into an interesting character by presenting it as a shackled AI who was given a specific, limited goal born of fear (stop AI from wiping out organic life forever), and it arrived at the grotesque solution of Reapers not because AI is evil, but the constraints never allow it to look past the false dilemma it's attempting to solve.

Most importantly, this is not a TV show or a movie. This narrative is, by design, told in a unique medium which is NOT doomed to give us a singular ending. Our Shepards can be varied, yes, but there is a finite amount of paradigms that lead you to the end, and they could all have a cathartic, poignant, and persistent ending. Let the Renegades ascend to rule the galaxy. Let the Paragons defeat primitive fear and xenophobia.

I do not care if the Relays have to go down, but don't do it in such a thoughtless way as to destroy everything meaningful I accomplished. I do not care if my Shepard dies. In fact, I expected her to go down in a blaze of glory, in the greatest battle that shall ever be fought, for the most meaningful (to her) victory a soldier could ever earn. She did not get this. I did not get this.

TENS OF THOUSANDS of people didn't get this. We are not asking for a Disney ending. We are not asking for a dance party with Ewoks. We are just asking for our Big Damn Heroes to go out on their own terms, win or lose.


Couldn't have put it better myself. Even if I tried.

#27
robbyiscool

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MattFini wrote...

Don't get too upset about this.

From his perspective, of course he's going to want to RT that. Hell, SOMEONE liked the ending, after all.

Whether nor not BioWare is faking us out, or legitimately believed the ending was satisfying is moot. They know people are upset, they'll respond. But it's also in Gamble's best interest that people buy the game.




Quoted for truth.  Good point.

#28
Aran Linvail

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I love the end , really love , because now im going to save alot of money not buying DLCs or other Bioware titles.
Bioware care about us , they want we save our money.

#29
Sywen

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Grand Wazoo wrote...

I wish I had the money to buy big enough ladders to take me to the fairyland where Bioware currently lives

lol

#30
Tossska

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If the writer tells the reader, that his book is good - he is a bad writer. Very bad.

#31
blah64

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Sashimi_taco wrote...

Everyone respond to that tweet with the article from forbes.


Makes me want to start up a twitter account a do just that. Actually, brb.

#32
JeanLuc Awesome

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Ugh this makes me too anxious, hopefully they see how many of their fans are basically screaming for a new or alternative ending.

#33
GBGriffin

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TBH, I had high hopes for the indoctrination theory. In a way, I still do. Either way, I'm not as crushed.

If it's true, then they'll say something eventually, though I think it's cruel for them to just keep leading players on like this given the emotional nature of the reactions.

If it isn't, there's now a compiled thread of glaring plotholes, inconsistencies, and just general "evidence" a player can use against them to justify their anger over a poor ending. It won't just be fans whining...we'll have x, y, and z to point to and say "They dropped the ball here."

I just feel like this could all blow over if they did more to encourage hope for the players rather than destroy it through ambiguous statements.

#34
JeanLuc Awesome

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blah64 wrote...

Sashimi_taco wrote...

Everyone respond to that tweet with the article from forbes.


Makes me want to start up a twitter account a do just that. Actually, brb.


You'd be better off tweeting it directly to him rather than that specific tweet wouldn't you? Don't use twitter, don't know.

#35
Guest_Prince_Valiant_*

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I think Ben Kuchera is absolutely, totally wrong. He explains nothing but claims all. He takes his opinion as a matter of fact. The endings were not worthy, but the funeral for a former great adventure series.

#36
Voidster

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*shakes head* adios bioware.

#37
movieguyabw

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If I had a twitter, I'd send all of the forbes articles to him.

Someone get on this.

#38
StrikeSaber47

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Tossska wrote...

If the writer tells the reader, that his book is good - he is a bad writer. Very bad.


Well that is what happened with Twilight <_< (and no I will never read that horrific fan fiction ever and idk why that book series was ever a smash hit with the ladies).

Either way it is his right to not rewrite the story if he doesn't want to but if he doesn't then don't expect his next paycheck to be funded by my contributions. In other words, I won't be buying anymore BioWare games simple as that.

#39
magikbbg

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Yeah that long post is right. The rest of the game really moved me in a way a game never did. But the ending is quite anti climatic.

#40
Darth Malignus

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Sashimi_taco wrote...

Everyone respond to that tweet with the article from forbes.


Done.

#41
Texhnolyze101

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Does anyone really care about what anyone at bioware really says anymore?

#42
aksoileau

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Gamble probably likes the ending because walk over to Mac and the writers and have it explained completely. SOMETHING WE CANT DO.

#43
shepskisaac

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The article mentions the part of the ending that is the biggest problem and makes the least sense, and then doesn't talk about it. We can (and will) debate endlessly if the Catalyst part is good or not, if the final 3 choices are good or not, if having "no happy bunnies" is good or not. We understand the course of events regarding those aspects and how it came to that. But no one understands what the hell is going on with the Normandy in the final moments. I mean seriously, the author admits it himself that he has no idea what was happening with Normandy in the last few minutes. How is that part of the ending satisfying and worthy of the series under any POV/interpetation?

Modifié par IsaacShep, 13 mars 2012 - 06:20 .


#44
Adain878

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Try not to sensationalize stuff, if we want them to fix their mistake we need to remain calm and construct post that provide real feed back. A kill them with kindness approach. Wait till we get an official response from Bioware before you go hulk on them.

#45
pomrink

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ben is a troll. didn't anymore see what he tweeted the other day?

#46
Turtlicious

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If we keep tweeting, eventually they will answer so please

everyone paste this into your tweet box, if you don't have a twitter, get one just for this.

Tweet wrote...

@GambleMike http://www.forbes.co...er-entitlement/ Please comment.



Also, keep this thread alive, so that ll can see this.

#47
nitefyre410

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Adamantium93 wrote...

If he thinks that lying to fans and giving us the opposite of what was promised is ok becuase of "artistic integrity", than I'm sorry but that's kind of arrogant.

 

Bioware and  Mr Gamble arrogance in this whole matter is starting to get...  tiresome.   

When you consumer base is up in arms about a product the last thing you do right or wrong its try to rub it in their  face and be arrogant about. 

AND if he is okay with theres ending as they  I have not only question his artistic integrity  but always his pride in his work... If put something out like this that was terrible ... I would  asking my fans forgiveness and wanting to better. 

you see it all the time 

hell Enimem mentioned it in a song.. 

Mr.Gamble and Bioware starting to sound quiet full of themselves. 

#48
GBGriffin

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Turtlicious wrote...

If we keep tweeting, eventually they will answer so please

everyone paste this into your tweet box, if you don't have a twitter, get one just for this.

Tweet wrote...

@GambleMike http://www.forbes.co...er-entitlement/ Please comment.



Also, keep this thread alive, so that ll can see this.


TBH, I don't expect them to give a solid answer. Just more ambiguous statements. They seem okay with that.

#49
dakphillips

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Yeah that article didn't convince me that the logical inconsistencies in the endings should be looked over. Defenders of the endings seem to focus on the notion that people are demanding a hunky-dory feel good ending. I don't believe that's the case. Not only did all that war asset buildup come across as unnecessary for the ultimate battle with the reapers as all three endings are remarkably similar, but issues with the Normandy and the very function of the Guardian itself doesn't make sense in the larger story.

I think the outcry would not be nearly so widespread if there weren't gaping inconsistencies in Shepard accepting everything Guardian tells him. And given how dark they could have gone I think there could have been much better ways to make this kids death and dream hauntings something much more memorable. The awkward running animations and forced slo-mo felt like a chore to get through every time. I would have liked the dreams to connect to the endings; one ends with the kids merging into a half-synthetic, one he burns and one somehow conveys 'control'.

#50
Devian

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It's so strange to see that Bioware is not on the same level as her loyal fans, over 35.000 people are telling them they made a bad ending, and all they can say is that they are fine with the endig of ME3? Why not give us the middle finger and laugh in our faces instead?  The number of fans that are upset about the ending of the game is growing every day, I don't understand that Boiware is not even trying to come to a middle ground with the fans that hate the end, instead the try to ignore it? If they keep telling they like the end and all te rest is yadda yadda yadda, then they have totaly no respect for her fans and have proven that only money is their primary goal and not to make a great game... 35.000 people that are upset (and the number is growing) is not something you try to ignore, it a foot right up your ass. If all these fans don't get what they want, The even the great pr guys can't pull them out of the sh*t storm...

:(

Modifié par Devian, 13 mars 2012 - 06:22 .