181 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

CenturyCrow wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...
Has anyone actually bothered on reading the Codex?

I'm sorry for all the non-believers - but for me personally - this entire theory is currently the one that seems to have considerable suggesting evidence that it may be - infact - valid.

Which - in turn - also suggests at a cliff hanger ending - not an absolute!

All cards are still on the table if you ask me.

One counter to this, is while Shepard is on Thessia talking to the Prothean VI Vendetta (Priority: Thessia mission). When Kai Leng approaches, Vendetta says, "Indoctrinated presence detected. Activating security protocol."

So if Shepard had been indoctrinated at that point, it's not likely Vendetta would have communicated with Shepard.

So if Shepard did get indoctrinated, it had to happen between Thessia and the ending.

The taint of indoctrination is there from the beginning of the game. However indoctrination works kind of like an infection. The last bit of the ending, is Shep about to become indoctrinated. If he pics anything but Destroy.
Benezzia explains this abit in ME1 "it starts subtle. Whispers". Things like that. Now in the dream sequences, the whisperings increases in each dream. Shep is becoming more and more "tainted".

[TheOptimist]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Haha - OMG - I just lol'ed so hard.

Some of you may be extremely wrong here - so let me say:

I support this entire 'Shepard is indoctrinated' - theory.

If someone already brought this to the table, I'm sorry - it's hard to keep track - but here goes my main reasoning for the entire 'Shepard is indoctrinated' theory to be (most likely) valid:

Has anyone actually bothered on reading the Codex?

This is a copy of what the in-game codex - in Mass Effect 3 - says about indoctrination:

"Reaper 'indoctrination' is an insidious means of corruptiong organic minds, 'reprogramming' the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods.

The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of 'being watched' and hallucinations of 'ghostly' presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitous awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years."



Now let's back trace -

'Ghostly' presences? (The Child)
'Alien Voices in the mind'? (Listen again to the Shepard / Anderson / TIM showdown)

I'm sorry for all the non-believers - but for me personally - this entire theory is currently the one that seems to have considerable suggesting evidence that it may be - infact - valid.

Which - in turn - also suggests at a cliff hanger ending - not an absolute!

All cards are still on the table if you ask me.

I've never understood what difference it makes.  Even if it turns out the indoctrination people are right, that means Bioware sold a game made specifically to screw with you, not letting you get and actual ending until much later.  That's not really any better than the mainline theory that they just completely screwed up.

[Harbinger of Hope]

Tigerlily Warrior wrote...
Something more like "Shepard's final mission" game like Dragon Age: Awakening. Here's hoping.

I think I remember suggesting something like this. Basically, it would be a 2-4 hour add-on that extends the fight for Earth culminating in a boss fight against Harby. I, personally, would love this. I feel we didn't get enough fighting on Earth to justify the whole "Take Earth Back" campaign they did.

[Leafs43]

Destroy option is the only option Shepherd survives.

But if he chooses the destroy option, he supposedly kills himself because of all his synthetic parts, which does not happen.


Harbinger, or whoever, is attempting to indoctrinate Shepherd. That much is clear because of how much the star child tries to dissuade Shepherd from using the destroy oiption and rather merge with the machine either though the synthesis or control options.

Modifié par Leafs43, 13 mars 2012 - 08:51 .

[Trobon18]

TheOptimist wrote...



I've never understood what difference it makes.  Even if it turns out the indoctrination people are right, that means Bioware sold a game made specifically to screw with you, not letting you get and actual ending until much later.  That's not really any better than the mainline theory that they just completely screwed up.

Not to mention, according to the theory everyone believes must be true, Bioware made it so only 1 out of every 3 people can actually get to the real ending. <_<

[zambingo]

I love the possibilities the Indoctrination Theory presents.

I guess you can say I've been indoctrinated by the Introctrination Theory.

[v0rt3x22]

You know - for a guy that's been a survivor throughout 3 games - manages to bring down Sovereign, killed Saren, survived the collectors, survived a 1:1 fight with a Reaper - I honestly think this is an absolutely great plot twist.

Consider the fact that when the Asari World is lost - we see a completely new side to Shepard.
He's sick of Cerberus, he's sick of the War - he's in need of a much deserved break - and he even gets sick at Jeff's Jokes.

Shepard is exhausted - and not that 'Super Hero'-I Survive-Everything - kind of guy anymore.

To have him (in a way) 'finally' succumb to the Reapers through indoctrination - and thereby highlighting the fact that Shepard always was 'Just Human' - is - for me - such a way better ending than what we all came to expect -> Go to the Citadel, Activate the Crucible -> War over.

It would have been almost predictable.

I'm happy with the way things seem to play out at the moment - if there's any truth to this theory.

Modifié par v0rt3x22, 13 mars 2012 - 09:02 .

[Malanek]

TheOptimist wrote...
I've never understood what difference it makes.  Even if it turns out the indoctrination people are right, that means Bioware sold a game made specifically to screw with you, not letting you get and actual ending until much later.  That's not really any better than the mainline theory that they just completely screwed up.

It is weird I admit. Never been done before in a computer game. I believe it has been done this way so that we actually believed we were not indoctrinated. This is the most powerful way we get to experience indoctrination. I think it is highly likely the genuine ending is still to come and we are going to get it sooner rather than later. 

Edit: Also my personal grief with the endings wasn't actually the results. It was the execution ie normandy squad scene and complete lack emotional content that should have been provided in some sort of epilogue. 

Modifié par Malanek999, 13 mars 2012 - 09:03 .

[Leafs43]

TheOptimist wrote..


I've never understood what difference it makes.  Even if it turns out the indoctrination people are right, that means Bioware sold a game made specifically to screw with you, not letting you get and actual ending until much later.  That's not really any better than the mainline theory that they just completely screwed up.

Ya, they screw with you and make your mind explode then a couple weeks later release free DLC with the real ending.


It won't be the first time the Mass Effect series had free DLC.

[D1ck1e]

I believe in this theory. And I believe the child never really was.

[Harbinger of Hope]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

You know - for a guy that's been a survivor throughout 3 games - manages to bring down Sovereign, killed Saren, survived the collectors, survived a 1:1 fight with a Reaper - I honestly think this is an absolutely great plot twist.

Consider the fact that when the Asari World is lost - we see a completely new side to Shepard.
He's sick of Cerberus, he's sick of the War - he's in need of a much deserved break - and he even gets sick at Jeff's Jokes.

Shepard is exhausted - and not that 'Super Hero'-I Survive-Everything - kind of guy anymore.

To have him (in a way) 'finally' succumb to the Reapers through indoctrination - and thereby highlighting the fact that Shepard always was 'Just Human' - is - for me - such a way better ending than what we all came to expect -> Go to the Citadel, Activate the Crucible -> War over.

It would have been almost predictable.

I'm happy with the way things seem to play out at the moment - if there's any truth to this theory.

True, but he would have to overcome it some how. I mean, this Cmdr. Shepard we're talking about here. The one of Legend. He has to overcome it....



he has to

[Leafs43]

D1ck1e wrote...

I believe in this theory. And I believe the child never really was.

He was.  

He just was Harbinger trying to get you to give in.

[v0rt3x22]

Leafs43 wrote...

D1ck1e wrote...

I believe in this theory. And I believe the child never really was.

He was.  

He just was Harbinger trying to get you to give in.

This.

[D1ck1e]

Leafs43 wrote...

D1ck1e wrote...

I believe in this theory. And I believe the child never really was.

He was.  

He just was Harbinger trying to get you to give in.

That's what I meant. I don't believe he was physically there at any point though.

[Nestareon]

The only thing I remember from the game that would support the Indoctrination theory is something that James has said on a couple of occassions.

"Does anyone else hear that hum?" (not exact quote)

He's said it at least twice when I was in the Shuttle Bay.

[Ariaya]

The indoctrinization theory is really very interesting.

Having had a few days to let the emotional impact of the game sink in, I am feeling more hopeful that something is in the works.

It's also interesting that the Destroy ending is the only one where we have the chance for the camera shot of a breathing Shepard. I realize that with the Control option she would most certainly die. I assume she also dies with Synthesis or does she assimilate into a hybrid as well? What is very compelling here is that the Ghost of Christmas Past (aka Starchild) tells Shepard that if she chooses to destroy the Reapers she will die in the process. But this is false--she can potentially NOT die. This also means that he lied to her about her inevitable death. This leads me to believe that he can't be trusted and that he is trying to manipulate her. The red ending, the "destroy" ending is the only one where Shepard living is possible--correct me if I am wrong.

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that what we have, folks, is a cliffhanger--not an ending.

The game has only been out for a week. I know many people are feeling really blue about the way the game concluded. I've felt it, too. But I do think that we should give Bioware a chance. There is way too much unadulterated negativity oozing out of these forums and not enough constructive criticism--both positive and negative. Bioware has made a terrific series. Let's not lose sight of that and keep our fingers crossed that they're up to something.

And if they're not--to quote Shepard--"It's been quite a ride."

[v0rt3x22]

Nestareon wrote...

The only thing I remember from the game that would support the Indoctrination theory is something that James has said on a couple of occassions.

"Does anyone else hear that hum?" (not exact quote)

He's said it at least twice when I was in the Shuttle Bay.

Haha really?

[CrasVox]

Has anyone not moved quick enough when given the Cruicible choice? I did. I was heading to the Green beam, but then changed my mind, and tried to book it to the control choice (I was playing paragon, I was going with the blue choice to finish the job), and I got a game over screen "Cruicible was destroyed".

[seventh_sorrow]

I made my original post here in the Theory thread. I made an argument for indoctrination and you can read it for more info.

But to sum it up:

The Reapers built the Citadel
The Citadel is the Catalyst
The Catalyst is the Child
The Child is in Shepard's head

if A = B = C = D

Then the Reapers are in Shepard's head

[v0rt3x22]

Ariaya wrote...
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that what we have, folks, is a cliffhanger--not an ending.

This is the single most aspect I've been trying to get across to the community.

There are more than enough hints to suggest that this is a cliffhanger.

To consider the end a 'Game-Over' and bash BioWare due to colossal failure - is just....sickening.

The game was completely awesome (and let's not forget about the rest of the game) - and as I already stated -

Shepard has changed - he's become tired and wants to see this through.

To have him surcumb to the Reapers is just a really great plot twist and opens all new possibilities.

[Kelwing]

Interesting on the codex. I never paid attention to it. Might explain why Vega is asking Shepard while on the Normandy if he hears that weird humming noise. I'll have to pay more attention but he mentions that only in systems with Reapers nearby.

Modifié par Kelwing, 13 mars 2012 - 09:39 .

[aimlessgun]

Garosh wrote...
The way I see it, the blue ending is giving in to the indoctrination, the red ending is you fighting the indoctrination, and the gray ending is just doing nothing. The real red ending, with enough war rating has your shepard laying in the rubble and breathing in after the citadel destroys the reapers. So I guess there's only one real ending, which is taking the red way out.

The indoctrination theory is interesting and palatable up until this point. 

The idea that there is a 'correct' choice in this indoctro-hallucination that let's you 'win' by 'seeing through the indoctrination' is laughable and disgusting. It smacks of people who chose "destroy" because they wanted to live trying to rationalize their geth genocides. 

If you actually 'saw through the indoctrination', you wouldn't pick any of the choices, because everything presented is a lie (the fact that many people, when faced with the choices, explored every inch of the map to find another option is amusing). 

People who choose control want to defeat the reapers just as badly as those who choose destroy. Actually, people who choose control are more confident of their willpower and desire to win. 

[Leafs43]

aimlessgun wrote...

Garosh wrote...
The way I see it, the blue ending is giving in to the indoctrination, the red ending is you fighting the indoctrination, and the gray ending is just doing nothing. The real red ending, with enough war rating has your shepard laying in the rubble and breathing in after the citadel destroys the reapers. So I guess there's only one real ending, which is taking the red way out.

The indoctrination theory is interesting and palatable up until this point. 

The idea that there is a 'correct' choice in this indoctro-hallucination that let's you 'win' by 'seeing through the indoctrination' is laughable and disgusting. It smacks of people who chose "destroy" because they wanted to live trying to rationalize their geth genocides. 

If you actually 'saw through the indoctrination', you wouldn't pick any of the choices, because everything presented is a lie (the fact that many people, when faced with the choices, explored every inch of the map to find another option is amusing). 

People who choose control want to defeat the reapers just as badly as those who choose destroy. Actually, people who choose control are more confident of their willpower and desire to win. 

The other 2 options, you give in to what the Reapers want.  You either choose control, which makes you part of the reapers or you choose synthesize, which also makes you part of the reapers.  And the reapers are not destroyed.

Destroy option is the only one you are told not to take and the one that the reapers pit against you as to run counter to everything you did in game.  And it's the only option where the reapers "die" which could mean symbolically you are destroying their influence in your head.

[Ariaya]

aimlessgun, I definitely see your point and I think the construction of the ending is problematic. As far as destroying Edi and the Geth with Destroy, maybe they are NOT destroyed. If Starchild lied or was mistaken about Shepard dying because she contains many cybernetics, then maybe the Geth and Edi will also survive.

Modifié par Ariaya, 13 mars 2012 - 09:44 .

[STAR_KILLER423]

Nefelius wrote...

CenturyCrow wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...
.

So if Shepard did get indoctrinated, it had to happen between Thessia and the ending.

Between leaving the Cerberus station and being hit by Habinja, actually, as the VI states almost the same thing on the base.

It doesnt say anything about indoctrination on the cerberus base actually. (at least I dont recall, i could always be wrong) The VI says that since security protocols have been deactivated he will comply which adds more to the indoctrination theory