181 réponses à ce sujet

[JoeLaTurkeyII]

Why are people so happy at the idea of being given an incomplete game and being forced to pay extra for what should always have been included in the original package?

This is it. THIS is how bad the writing is. People have cooked up a conspiracy theory and are cackling to themselves over it.

[Candidate 88766]

kato42 wrote...

I'm afraid that while the Indoctrination theory makes MORE sense than what we saw, it still doesn't make complete sense. Its still got giant plot holes, such as Candidate 88766 has been pointing out.

Not to mention that not having the real ending in the game is a horrible idea, that is a serious "F You!" to the customers. "Here is you full game. Well, actually, its not. To get the full game you have to shell out another 10 bucks just to get a decent ending. But we didn't tell you that because we knew that many people wouldn't buy the game when we released it because they would wait for the ending to be available. Not to mention that people would be angry that they had to spend more money to get the DLC with the 'real' ending! They might think it deceptive of us to say this was the end of the series that would answer all their questions, only to find out that you have to get the DLC to get those answers and an ending that doesn't annoy most of the fans."

No... I have no idea what these 'plans' of theirs are, but it all smacks of A. bad writing, or B. bad business decisions. Or C. Both.

Hell, even if they made this hypothetical DLC free it still won't be available to everyone. Bioware would lose all credibility, and it would set a terrible precident for future games.

Also, while I think the indoctrination idea is far more interesting than what we got, it makes far less sense within the context of the story as it is. For the idea to be true, there would have to strong hints to it throughout the game. As it is, all people can point to is dream sequences, which can be explained away simply as strange dreams. 

And the only way it would be satisfying is if, on the discs that we bought, we get to see Shepard somehow break free of the indoctrination and then go on to use the Crucible to win the war. Ending the game on a cliffhanger seems worse to me than simply ending it badly.

[Maialeth]

Forgive me if someone else has posted this.. But all the people here have been pointing to the Prothean VI stating that it was impossible for Shep to be indoctrinated because the VI didn't pick it up. However... The subtle hints that the reapers are /attempting/ to indoctrinate him /are/ throughout the game. I'm undecided on if I buy the theory or not.. I actually hope it is the truth so there will be some way through (hopefully free, perhaps linked to your online pass showing that you bought a full retail version of the game or purchased the online pass for a used copy) DLC of 'the rest of the story'. The VI doesn't identify him because as of yet he's not indoctrinated. At the ending though, as we learned in the Miranda's father mission (why else would they bring up the idea that adrenaline speeds up the indoc process? Really?) Adrenaline speeds it up, makes a person far more easy to indoctrinate. What courses through your body when you're severely injured as we see Shep was, what courses through your body to induce that Fight or flight response as you're running full speed towards what would seem to anyone else, and what was for very many, certain death, Harbinger. The ending is the final part of the indoc process.. Where this child VI.. Reaper controller urges you to try and control them (TIM couldn't control us.. because we controlled him, or to FFS MERGE with the reapers. That's the obvious choices reaperboy wanted you to pick. He uses things such as.. destroy will destroy everything reaper related... Even you since you are part reaper tech as well. He pulls on those strings for those of us who went through all the trouble to obtain peace between the Geth and the Quarians, or even moreso those that picked Geth over the quarians by saying destroy will kill them as well. Trying to convince you that all that hard work you did.. or even the sacrifice of an entire species over the Geth would've been for nothing as you'd just kill them now anyway.. He pulls on your emotions for those that had a fondness for EDI (who is a well liked character) and/or Joker because of HIS attachment to EDI.. by saying it would destroy her as well. This little reaperboy does his damndest to urge you away from the destroy endings, and into any option that leaves the reapers alive. Through out the series the Reapers constantly tell you that you couldn't understand their purposes... Yet reaperboy gives us a pretty simple and somewhat odd reason.. But he explains it... It seemed pretty simple to understand, to me. Yet.. through all of this.. We have no option to argue, where during the entire game we had quite a few options to argue or disagree or make our own points. The point is.. Shep is not indoctrinated through out the whole game... They're attempting to control him but he's managed to fight it of.. The endings are the 'final' attempt. Picking the destroy option means.. You/Shep broke through that indoctrination, why else would it be the only ending in which Shep lives, despite the fact that it destroys all reaper tech, including the bits and peaces keeping shep together? Grasping for straws? Possibly, probably. It makes sense to me.. And I think most would invite Bioware to take the concept and run with it to fix the endings, if it wasn't already in the works. Hell it makes just as much sense for all that to happen as it does that Shep managed to survive the citidel blowing up and re-entry into Earth's atmo.

[Sc2mashimaro]

JoeLaTurkeyII wrote...

Why are people so happy at the idea of being given an incomplete game and being forced to pay extra for what should always have been included in the original package?

This is it. THIS is how bad the writing is. People have cooked up a conspiracy theory and are cackling to themselves over it.

Well, I agree, in so far as anyone that has convinced themselves that just because the last scenes were a product of indoctrination or partial indoctrination that means that end-game DLC is imminent. I hope so, but that doesn't mean that the ending is any less final in of itself. Like I said before, there is something a little poetic and tragic about Shepard succumbing to indoctrination as part of the finale of the tale and there is sufficient evidence to suggest that he is at least being influenced by the Reapers at the very end. Now, what does that all mean? Well, jumping to the conclusion that Shep is back on earth and "none of it happened" is naive - that's one possibility. But I've read the art book and some other stuff, there's a strong suggestion that not all of the stuff after Harbinger blasts Shep in the face is totally fake. This may mean that more content to "finish the story" is coming or it might not, the devs and writers have not given us any clear answers or signals.

[Super G]

The indoctrination theory is certainly interesting but what I have a major issue with is the fact that if this is true then you are totally screwed if you chose the 2 endings whereby Shep gave into the indoctrination. Therefore the only plausible way for future DLC to make any sense is if you chose to destroy synthetics/reapers.
The only reason I do entertain the theory however is the fact that once you complete the game it says you have saved the galaxy and can now go back and play the game further with anticipation of DLC. Also the fact that I wound up back on the Normandy just before the attack on Cerberus makes me wonder why I was put back to this moment in time.
Yet there is no escaping the fact it will be downright ridiculous if BW say all endings were fabrications. If that was the original plan all along shouldn't they have planned add-on content to be released on the back of the game release?

[mjb203]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

mjb203 wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

mjb203 wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Ariaya wrote...
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that what we have, folks, is a cliffhanger--not an ending.

This is the single most aspect I've been trying to get across to the community.

There are more than enough hints to suggest that this is a cliffhanger.

To consider the end a 'Game-Over' and bash BioWare due to colossal failure - is just....sickening.

The game was completely awesome (and let's not forget about the rest of the game) - and as I already stated -

Shepard has changed - he's become tired and wants to see this through.

To have him surcumb to the Reapers is just a really great plot twist and opens all new possibilities.

The problem with this is that they promised to tie everything together and answer all our questions.  If this was Shepard getting indoctrinated, then it's just bad storytelling.  Not to mention, it makes the Stargazer conversation at the end make no sense.  And from a meta standpoint, if the Stargazer is an alien race that is telling the story based on one of Liara's time capsules, then it means we basically went through three games for nothing.  That isn't really a satisfying conclusion to the series, IMHO. 

Yes but again you're arguing that the ending is absolute - in which case, yes - it wouldn't be a really satisfying conclusion to the series.

But that's my point - everything points to it being a cliffhanger to something to come.

So everything is still on the table. There's still that opportunity to answer absolutely everything.

So then I'd have to buy DLC or another game to get answers that should've been given in this game?  Sorry, but no.  That's just bad business.  This was supposed to be the end of the Shepard trilogy, and I want to know what happened to Shepard.  That shouldn't require me purchasing future products to tie up loose ends.

Hehe. Now you're doing it again though. Assuming the worst.

Michael Gamble said that something is in the works - but he didn't specifically mention DLC - nor that it would cost anything.

Well, in all fairness, I'm from Missouri, so "Show Me"  

Words can certainly help alleviate some concerns, but they really need to start backing them up with some action, even if it's just an official statement saying, "that's the ending.  deal with it".  Granted that wouldn't be good for them as a company, but at least it's something.

While, yes, it is a cliffhanger of an ending, that wasn't what we were promised from the devs.  We were promised that all loose ends would be tied up.  If they made that promise, they should have done it in the base game, not through other media.

Also, sorry for the late response!  I was out at a meeting.

Edit: spelling

Modifié par mjb203, 14 mars 2012 - 03:43 .

[Rip The Reaper]

siefier25 wrote...

This actually makes sense. When shepard wakes up after the blast from harbinger, you hear his ears ringing and the comms say "everyone was wiped out". So basically it was all in his head. And the ghost boy. How would the reapers know about the boy unless they were in his head? He would obviously have to be indoctrinated. Good find OP.

Also note the voices of everyone after shep gets back up all the way to the end. They have that echo...

[v0rt3x22]

mjb203 wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

mjb203 wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

mjb203 wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Ariaya wrote...
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that what we have, folks, is a cliffhanger--not an ending.

This is the single most aspect I've been trying to get across to the community.

There are more than enough hints to suggest that this is a cliffhanger.

To consider the end a 'Game-Over' and bash BioWare due to colossal failure - is just....sickening.

The game was completely awesome (and let's not forget about the rest of the game) - and as I already stated -

Shepard has changed - he's become tired and wants to see this through.

To have him surcumb to the Reapers is just a really great plot twist and opens all new possibilities.

The problem with this is that they promised to tie everything together and answer all our questions.  If this was Shepard getting indoctrinated, then it's just bad storytelling.  Not to mention, it makes the Stargazer conversation at the end make no sense.  And from a meta standpoint, if the Stargazer is an alien race that is telling the story based on one of Liara's time capsules, then it means we basically went through three games for nothing.  That isn't really a satisfying conclusion to the series, IMHO. 

Yes but again you're arguing that the ending is absolute - in which case, yes - it wouldn't be a really satisfying conclusion to the series.

But that's my point - everything points to it being a cliffhanger to something to come.

So everything is still on the table. There's still that opportunity to answer absolutely everything.

So then I'd have to buy DLC or another game to get answers that should've been given in this game?  Sorry, but no.  That's just bad business.  This was supposed to be the end of the Shepard trilogy, and I want to know what happened to Shepard.  That shouldn't require me purchasing future products to tie up loose ends.

Hehe. Now you're doing it again though. Assuming the worst.

Michael Gamble said that something is in the works - but he didn't specifically mention DLC - nor that it would cost anything.

Well, in all fairness, I'm from Missouri, so "Show Me"  

Words can certainly help alleviate some concerns, but they really need to start backing them up with some action, even if it's just an official statement saying, "that's the ending.  deal with it".  Granted that wouldn't be good for them as a company, but at least it's something.

While, yes, it is a cliffhanger of an ending, that wasn't what we were promised from the devs.  We were promised that all loose ends would be tied up.  If they made that promise, they should have done it in the base game, not through other media.

Also, sorry for the late response!  I was out at a meeting.

Edit: spelling

I certainly agree with you - but working in the gaming industry myself - I also have a certain respect for their current silence.

I can assure you that they aren't simply ignoring us.

Something is brewing - and they're hearing out frustrations.

I mean - the whole thing went viral - so - in my opinion - I think they still have something up their sleeve.

[mjb203]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

mjb203 wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

mjb203 wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

mjb203 wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Ariaya wrote...
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that what we have, folks, is a cliffhanger--not an ending.

This is the single most aspect I've been trying to get across to the community.

There are more than enough hints to suggest that this is a cliffhanger.

To consider the end a 'Game-Over' and bash BioWare due to colossal failure - is just....sickening.

The game was completely awesome (and let's not forget about the rest of the game) - and as I already stated -

Shepard has changed - he's become tired and wants to see this through.

To have him surcumb to the Reapers is just a really great plot twist and opens all new possibilities.

The problem with this is that they promised to tie everything together and answer all our questions.  If this was Shepard getting indoctrinated, then it's just bad storytelling.  Not to mention, it makes the Stargazer conversation at the end make no sense.  And from a meta standpoint, if the Stargazer is an alien race that is telling the story based on one of Liara's time capsules, then it means we basically went through three games for nothing.  That isn't really a satisfying conclusion to the series, IMHO. 

Yes but again you're arguing that the ending is absolute - in which case, yes - it wouldn't be a really satisfying conclusion to the series.

But that's my point - everything points to it being a cliffhanger to something to come.

So everything is still on the table. There's still that opportunity to answer absolutely everything.

So then I'd have to buy DLC or another game to get answers that should've been given in this game?  Sorry, but no.  That's just bad business.  This was supposed to be the end of the Shepard trilogy, and I want to know what happened to Shepard.  That shouldn't require me purchasing future products to tie up loose ends.

Hehe. Now you're doing it again though. Assuming the worst.

Michael Gamble said that something is in the works - but he didn't specifically mention DLC - nor that it would cost anything.

Well, in all fairness, I'm from Missouri, so "Show Me"  

Words can certainly help alleviate some concerns, but they really need to start backing them up with some action, even if it's just an official statement saying, "that's the ending.  deal with it".  Granted that wouldn't be good for them as a company, but at least it's something.

While, yes, it is a cliffhanger of an ending, that wasn't what we were promised from the devs.  We were promised that all loose ends would be tied up.  If they made that promise, they should have done it in the base game, not through other media.

Also, sorry for the late response!  I was out at a meeting.

Edit: spelling

I certainly agree with you - but working in the gaming industry myself - I also have a certain respect for their current silence.

I can assure you that they aren't simply ignoring us.

Something is brewing - and they're hearing out frustrations.

I mean - the whole thing went viral - so - in my opinion - I think they still have something up their sleeve.

I can respect their silence so that they can get their ducks in a row and have a gameplan before they come out and say something.  However, they really should have put some more consideration to fan reaction regarding the endings, especially given the promises they made.

While I can certainly respect the indoctrination theory, IF that is what they intended, but to pull it off properly they really needed to give more hints that it was happening (conflicts between Shep and company, or Hackett, etc.) and build on it with something other than the dreams that take place between acts of the story. 

If nothing else, it's good to have a calm and reasoned debate over it!  I appreciate that this hasn't devolved into petty insults and snark!

[v0rt3x22]

mjb203 wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

mjb203 wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

mjb203 wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

mjb203 wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Ariaya wrote...
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that what we have, folks, is a cliffhanger--not an ending.

This is the single most aspect I've been trying to get across to the community.

There are more than enough hints to suggest that this is a cliffhanger.

To consider the end a 'Game-Over' and bash BioWare due to colossal failure - is just....sickening.

The game was completely awesome (and let's not forget about the rest of the game) - and as I already stated -

Shepard has changed - he's become tired and wants to see this through.

To have him surcumb to the Reapers is just a really great plot twist and opens all new possibilities.

The problem with this is that they promised to tie everything together and answer all our questions.  If this was Shepard getting indoctrinated, then it's just bad storytelling.  Not to mention, it makes the Stargazer conversation at the end make no sense.  And from a meta standpoint, if the Stargazer is an alien race that is telling the story based on one of Liara's time capsules, then it means we basically went through three games for nothing.  That isn't really a satisfying conclusion to the series, IMHO. 

Yes but again you're arguing that the ending is absolute - in which case, yes - it wouldn't be a really satisfying conclusion to the series.

But that's my point - everything points to it being a cliffhanger to something to come.

So everything is still on the table. There's still that opportunity to answer absolutely everything.

So then I'd have to buy DLC or another game to get answers that should've been given in this game?  Sorry, but no.  That's just bad business.  This was supposed to be the end of the Shepard trilogy, and I want to know what happened to Shepard.  That shouldn't require me purchasing future products to tie up loose ends.

Hehe. Now you're doing it again though. Assuming the worst.

Michael Gamble said that something is in the works - but he didn't specifically mention DLC - nor that it would cost anything.

Well, in all fairness, I'm from Missouri, so "Show Me"  

Words can certainly help alleviate some concerns, but they really need to start backing them up with some action, even if it's just an official statement saying, "that's the ending.  deal with it".  Granted that wouldn't be good for them as a company, but at least it's something.

While, yes, it is a cliffhanger of an ending, that wasn't what we were promised from the devs.  We were promised that all loose ends would be tied up.  If they made that promise, they should have done it in the base game, not through other media.

Also, sorry for the late response!  I was out at a meeting.

Edit: spelling

I certainly agree with you - but working in the gaming industry myself - I also have a certain respect for their current silence.

I can assure you that they aren't simply ignoring us.

Something is brewing - and they're hearing out frustrations.

I mean - the whole thing went viral - so - in my opinion - I think they still have something up their sleeve.

I can respect their silence so that they can get their ducks in a row and have a gameplan before they come out and say something.  However, they really should have put some more consideration to fan reaction regarding the endings, especially given the promises they made.

While I can certainly respect the indoctrination theory, IF that is what they intended, but to pull it off properly they really needed to give more hints that it was happening (conflicts between Shep and company, or Hackett, etc.) and build on it with something other than the dreams that take place between acts of the story. 

If nothing else, it's good to have a calm and reasoned debate over it!  I appreciate that this hasn't devolved into petty insults and snark!

Yea to be fair - if this whole theory turns out to be correct - the most confusing part about it would have been the message you get after the credits "The Galaxy has been saved" etc. 

In that case it would have been a bit misleading.

[tvih]

If he was really indoctrinated and we get the "real ending" later as DLC, free or not... that'd be quite the gut-punch, really. An unprecedented way of telling a game story as far as single player goes. Not sure it's all that fair to the fans, either. Now, if it had supposedly ended to where the cinematic ended, and then credits rolled... ONLY for the game to actually continue after the credits for the REAL ending while people were still "WTF?" over what seemed to just happen... now, that would've been something else. Post-release-release of ending? It sure would be an odd way to go about it.

[kaotician]

 For my money, there was always something off about the Crucible anyway. What a lucky break, finding that!! And just one part missing too......

Yeah, or, it's a Reaper tool, gets the enemy wasting time and resources on something that just doesn't work, like a Holy Grail or similar.

It's a legendary weapon, not a real one at all, it's designed to keep the best minds building it, and the best strategists thinking of it, and to get vast amounts of otherwise vital military resources sucked up into the building of it - and the Reapers have always used it, then buried the evidence of its' existence themselves, for the next time.

Modifié par kaotician, 14 mars 2012 - 01:29 .

[Rob_K1]

aimlessgun wrote...

 More stuff against the "destroy is the 'right' choice" wing of this theory:
-If the reapers want to steer you away from "destroy" why do they show Anderson doing it? Anderson, the guy you respect maybe the most in the whole galaxy. That's a clear incentive  to choose destroy.

-When listing the downsides of destroy, why mention the Geth dying but not EDI? You are much more likely to be emotionally attached to EDI, and many players may have wiped out the Geth already. 

That is actually something for, and not against, the indoctrination theory.

There is nothing to say that the Reaper is the one showing those images of Anderson choosing destroy and the Illusive Man choosing control.

It is simply Shepard's conscience thinking of what each person would do.

If you think about it, the Reapers harvested humans in ME 2 to make another Reaper. So, they are already part synthetic and part organic. Saren also wanted to merge synthetics with organics.

The Illusive Man, however, has been convinced that controlling is the correct option. He is also indoctrinated, as was Saren. I should add as well that others have stated that the child lingers when the control option is chosen and disappears when destroy is chosen.

The destroy option appears because it is what Shepard's set out to do from the very beginning and Anderson would support it. Plus, the Reapers know it and don't want him to take that option. They even imply he would die by taking that option, yet if your EMS is high enough, Shepard is shown alive. It does not add up. This is the one piece of evidence that makes me convinced the indoctrination theory is correct. Everything else I could chalk up to possibly looking for signs when they aren't intentional or there aren't any. Keep in mind though that I'm okay with the endings as they are, though I do acknowledge extra variations would have been welcome.

I know people are claiming it is bad writing and it is your right to do so, but as a writer, I honestly think this is rather great writing on BioWare's part and I am actually becoming amused at all of the complaints at the demo's writing being bad. But, by saying this, I am in no shape or form saying that all writers would think it is great writing. Writers are, like readers and fans, composed of many different views on what constitutes a good story and writing.

As I've mentioned before, the only thing I cannot explain is the part with the child at the end with the grandfather and the 'Reaper threat is over bit'. It is entirely possible though that Shepard died or something where he got hit/knocked out by the beam and that because he was able to rally the galaxy thus allowing them to be stopped, they were defeated and he was still heralded as a hero. This is perhaps a stretch, but it could be as someone else mentioned earlier, the ending message could be designed to let others who do not gain access to the true endings that they 'beat the game'.

This is assuming another ending is in the pipeline though, regardless of whether it's released for free or paid for.

Edit: I do have one question for people who know about computers etc., because I'm not technically minded. This is mainly being asked to help put to rest fears that people without the net will be screwed.

How possible is it for BioWare to have hidden files on the disk that cannot be data-mined and unlocked at a certain date/time?

Again, it is reaching, but...

Modifié par Rob_K1, 14 mars 2012 - 02:03 .

[ayrapd11]

Modifié par ayrapd11, 14 mars 2012 - 01:39 .

[Kylamero]

I think it's a masterstroke.

If the "real" ending was already in the game lot's of people would find out theres only one true path you can pick and that is destroy (the non indoctrinated descision).

By making us perceive it is the "real" ending as it is now allows us to make more personal choices about what ending we want (control/synthesis/destroy) and thus be unaware of indoctrination which is prescisly how indoctrination works.

Then they bring DLC out say 3 or 4 months down the line and people are like oh crap i was indoctrinated i chose control ,oh bummer but don't worry i don't have to start the game again i can go from bit before the assault on the Cerberus base point which it takes you back to after you complete the game.

[macroberts]

Just quickly copy-pasting what I said from another thread:

If indeed that's the effect ME3 producers were going for, I applaud them for their audacious idea. And to be honest I quite like that idea.

But if indeed they intended to bring out a ME3.5: The End, then I'll have to be honest and say it's been mismanaged. In fact, if this was what they wanted to do, to plant that seed of doubt, then the whole current situation would not have arose if instead of "Congrats, your Shepard is now a galactic legend to everyone who'll never see you again, wait for DLC" the final message was "Congrats..... but seriously, was all that what it seemed?" Then everyone would be saying "What the **** is going on, I want to see more" instead of "What the **** is going on, you guys ruined my experience." To put it bluntly, I think they've completely mismanaged the player's expectations.

Weighing up everything, all the evidence, the ending, and so forth, I can only reach the conclusion that they probably do have some ME3.5: End of Line DLC planned, probably for free. It's not a conclusion I reach with any real solid certainty, because I am only making inferences and the such. This is considering we're all blind to the process in BioWare atm, I pretty much take all viewpoints as valid, unless it's so utterly ridiculous...... I guess this is why an official response would be much more appreciated. But the ending was just so completely disconnected from the rest of the game, both in plot and in tone and in quality, that it seems inconceivable it got past QA. I can only see it passing if it was promised to the QA that something would come after that.

But I stress, no re-writes, no replacement endings. To rewrite is to undermine the creative process. It has to be a continuation. Their product, their responsibility to back up their fine work.

[killnoob]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Haha - OMG - I just lol'ed so hard.

Some of you may be extremely wrong here - so let me say:

I support this entire 'Shepard is indoctrinated' - theory.

If someone already brought this to the table, I'm sorry - it's hard to keep track - but here goes my main reasoning for the entire 'Shepard is indoctrinated' theory to be (most likely) valid:

Has anyone actually bothered on reading the Codex?

This is a copy of what the in-game codex - in Mass Effect 3 - says about indoctrination:

"Reaper 'indoctrination' is an insidious means of corruptiong organic minds, 'reprogramming' the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods.

The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of 'being watched' and hallucinations of 'ghostly' presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitous awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years."



Now let's back trace -

'Ghostly' presences? (The Child)
'Alien Voices in the mind'? (Listen again to the Shepard / Anderson / TIM showdown)

I'm sorry for all the non-believers - but for me personally - this entire theory is currently the one that seems to have considerable suggesting evidence that it may be - infact - valid.

Which - in turn - also suggests at a cliff hanger ending - not an absolute!

All cards are still on the table if you ask me.

Even if the indoctrination theory turns out to be true, It is still a massive cliche and wouldn't work as well as anyone made it out to be. Here's coupla reasons why from a storytelling point of vew that indoctrination theory could actually produce more holes than it fill up:

1. Throughout the series we are shown that Shepard is a strong willed leader, who, after conversing with the reapers several times and still stayed true to his/her goal for the most part. As previous game suggested, indoctrination is an ongoing process that requires a long time for the subject to completely immerse within the illusion created. Take illusive man for example. He had been in possession of a powerful reaper artifact ever since his youth when he was still known as Jack Harper. It was only ater decades of "fringe" research and learning about the enemies, he finally became a victim of indoctrination.

If, indeed, commander Shepard is indoctrinated, not only should it require more time to take effect, we should have seen symptoms of Shepard suffering from indoctrination during the first two game.

However, this is not the case.

Shepard was determined to destroy the reapers in ME1. Shepard was also commited to destroying the collectors, and when facing the harbringers in the Arrival he was willing to sacrifice an entire system to stop the reapers. In ME3, he could've had so many chances of joining the illusive man, but he didn't. Instead, he rallied the entire galaxy to fight against the reapers.

If the reapers could truly indoctrinate such a strong willed leader in a matter of minutes/hours, then the galaxy don't stand a chance.

Hell, Soverign could've indoctrinated Shepard easily, if rapid indoctrination can work on anybody.

It would make absolutely no sense when he had been fighting reapers all these times, only to be indoctrinated during the last battle, when he could've been indoctrinated in so many other places/times when he was either in contact with reaper artifacts or actual reapers.



2. Why would the catalyst presents him with the "destroy" option if Shepard is indoctrinated?
Here's my understanding of the indoctrination theory:

Shepards indoctrinated, but if he chooses to destroy the reaper even
under the influence, then he will wake up and the ending will pick up
from wherever he was left with.

Without proper informations, we can only assume that the purpose of
indoctrinating Shepard is to convert him, and to convince him that
destroying the reapers change nothing. What we do know is that, when Shepard conversed with the space god, he was willing to believe pretty much everything the child said without any question. 

If indeed Shepard is being indoctrinated, why do you think the space god would still give him the option to destroy the reapers?

Also, why would the space god direct him to the correct console that will fire the crucible and destroy the reapers, when he could easily induced hallucinations for Shepard to accidentally pick the wrong console? Hell, why would the space god even talk to him in the first place, when he could've just stay quiet and Shepard would've been screwed on all fronts?

Remember, he has no idea about the interior design of the crucible, nor has he any idea about what option he has before the space god told him. Hell, he was falling asleep had the space god not wake him up. Why would the reapers indoctrinate Shepard only to help him destroy them?

Ok, let's make another assumption that the space god's intention is to let Shepard know the dire consequences that would result from choosing the destroy option. (All synthetics destroyed.) If Shepard still chooses to destroy the reaper, what makes people think he coul escape from the indoctrination afterward?

True enough, you can argue that the ending could be another effect of indoctrination as well, but it would make no sense to not show EDI when the normandy crush landed when destroy is chosen (hell it wouldn't make any sense to show the normandy at all.)


Those two points alone could prove that the indoctrination theory has as much plot holes as the current ending.

Therefore, it is my belief that,  Mass Effect's endings are so bad that it will not make ANY sense regardless of what theory you come up with.


And what is the root of all these plot holes? Again and again I've reapeated my answer.

(Off topics now)


It's the catalyst.

Not only is the cyber god kid attached with some of the weakest writing in the ME franchise, his appearance simply does not make any sense what so ever.

Why is he telling Shepard about the reapers? Why won't his solutions work anymore?

Why does the space god believe he has to destroy the advance civilizations in order to preserve the primitive ones, when the Protheans have proven that an advanced civilization can actually help other civilization advance?

(For some of you who doesn't know, Protheans actually helped humans advance in secret.)

Isn't the crucible the biggest proof that advance civilization is willing to assist younger civilization, since the design of hte crucible has been improved again and again from all previous cycles?

If indeed, the space god also fears the technology singularity, where the organic would eventually create machines more powerful than the reapers, why doesn't he simply use reapers wipe out the technology?

Better yet, why would he provides the galaxy the element zero technology, or even the mass relay in the first place? Without either of those things it would've set every single race in the galaxy back for at least 100k years. Remember, Prothean was only advanced because they discovered the mass relay and the citadel, and so did every advance civilization that came before.

It simply makes no sense to provide your children guns if you fear that your children would one day figure out how to make bullets.


In conclusion, Mass Effect 3's ending is ruined by the catalyst and the catalyst alone. The purpose of reapers should not and cannot be explained properly without producing plot holes. The catalyst tried to, and look at how atrocious, how ridiculous the endings are.


TL;DR:

Whatever theories you have they would not make any sense until the space god is gone.

Modifié par killnoob, 14 mars 2012 - 02:37 .

[fox121]

Does no one remeber the matrix??
red and blue pill
Take the blue pill, believe whatever you want to belive
Take the red, see the truth

[killnoob]

fox121 wrote...

Does no one remeber the matrix??
red and blue pill
Take the blue pill, believe whatever you want to belive
Take the red, see the truth

Lol there's a space god baby at the end of matrix too.

Neo also died.

Matrix is also about killer machines vs man.

Similarities?

[fox121]

Guess we just figured it out, its the matrix

[Priviums]

This is the reason why harbinger is so interested in shepard the whole time, imagine having shepard as a deep cover agent=would lose the war. Imo bioware have given us hints of the ending even from ME2 that shepard was undergoing manipulation.

[v0rt3x22]

Gotta re-post this - but this really interesting:

[magicalpoop]

There is no definitive answer, they left the ending intentionally open to interpretation on some levels

Straight from the game director

I didn’t want the game to be forgettable, and even right down to the sort of polarizing reaction that the ends have had with people debating what the endings mean and what’s going to happen next, and what situation are the characters left in. That to me is part of what’s exciting about this story. There has always been a little bit of mystery there and a little bit of interpretation, and it’s a story that people can talk about after the fact.

SOURCE: MSNBC http://www.ingame.ms...s-ending-442217

[mupp3tz]

Here's a quote you can't misinterpret:

"We have a New Game Plus, so you take that character from the end-game and restart the game with a powerful character. We also have a premise for being able to play ongoing adventures from the perspective of the middle of the game, like we had in Mass Effect 2." LINK.

So, these may be the "exciting" things he has in plan for us.

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 14 mars 2012 - 11:38 .