140 réponses à ce sujet

[sirstikay69]

bump/like/retweet/whatever medium you choose to convey it through this is very well done.

[Taboo]

My main concern is a true implosion. People are really upset. I'd like to stress further that I'm not angry, I'm just very sad.

[NiZe55]

I'm totally agreeing with your opinion

[xXIncognitoXx]

Great post! The ending left me so sad. The amount of plot holes in the end had me scratching my head. How could the writers of felt that this was acceptable?

[wickermoon]

A very well written post, I have to admit. But I would like to have your opinion on this little quote of Casey Hudson from an interview regarding mass effect: 3:

"There is a huge set of consequences that start stacking up as you approach the end-game. And even in terms of the ending itself, it continues to break down to some very large decisions. So it's not like a classic game ending where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things - it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who plays it."

For me it suggests that the endings would have to be quite different for many people, which they apparently are not. Either BioWare planned this very well and have something up their sleeves or they lied - blatantly lied - about this, which would be selling a game for something it is not and can be proven to be not. The quote is from the 12th of February 2012, so about a month ago. Here's a link to the interview and the quote should be found right under "Are there alternative endings depending on what you do in the game?".

I'm bringing this up because your post is partially based around the idea that artists have a right to choose their own ending. But BioWare clearly stated that Mass Effect 3 is "[...] not like a classic game ending where everything is linear and ou make a choice between a few things[...]".

Maybe what Casey said was all wrong. But maybe it was the truth and the Indoctrination guys were kind of right. You'd like to give your opinion? I'd love to hear it.

[Taboo]

Please post or tweet or do whatever you want. This is an open letter, meant for everyone. I didn't create it with the intention for people to vent rage. I created it to hopefully make everyone take a step back and say "These are the facts and this is where we are at the moment."

[AlexXIV]

Well the thing about artistic integrity ... there are always critics and there is always criticism. If you write a book someone rates it, if you make a movie, someone rates it, if you make a video game ... guess what. The ending is slobby and badly patched together that's the problem people have with it. It is bad on so many levels that nobody from bioware even makes a statement on it. Because they know. The drones are leaderless, because Bioware doesn't tell them what to think so they go all out "The ending is great!" until Bioware admits it and the drones row back and express their love even more. It is really ridiculous to see how people don't even recognize that the ending is that terrible. This is not such a big movement for no reason. It is so big because EVERYONE SHOULD SEE the problem with the ending, even hardcore fans. But they don't want to. They rather lie to themselves and everyone around them. We had the same with DA2. The drones called it 'Masterpiece' and 'Best Game Ever'. That's how much their opinion is worth.

[ed87]

I like it. Instead of complaining about it or creating fantasies about indoctrinations, its nice to see effort going into something more useful

[Taboo]

We need to be civil about it though and to produce mature, intellectual discussion. Fighting for what you believe in is a great thing but not if you lose yourself in the process. There is a Nietzsche quote in their somewhere................

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 13 mars 2012 - 10:17 .

[Sundance31us]

OP. Correct me if I’m wrong, the Peter Gabriel quote is from Biko?

[AlexXIV]

I am myself. Usually I am more civil, but that's not even my nature.

[Taboo]

Sundance31us wrote...

OP. Correct me if I’m wrong, the Peter Gabriel quote is from Biko?

Yes. I thought it was an appropriate quote.

Our fight isn't nearly as important as Biko's was.

[Nobrandminda]

Well put.

I've never had much respect for the "artistic integrity" argument against changing the ending.

Yeah, sure, it's Bioware's game and they're free to do what they want with it. But this is a piece of interactive fiction, and one where the player can make decisions that affect the outcome of the story at that. The story is a fundamental core of game play.

If a video game has bad controls, you don't say "Well, it's not fair to criticize that. The developers made the game that they wanted to make, and if they wanted to make a game with several seconds of lag in between input and response, that's their prerogative."

Modifié par Nobrandminda, 13 mars 2012 - 10:21 .

[Sundance31us]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Yes. I thought it was an appropriate quote.

Our fight isn't nearly as important as Biko's was.

He was a remarkable man, the world is lesser without him.

Edit: Added a "w".

Modifié par Sundance31us, 13 mars 2012 - 10:29 .

[Taboo]

wickermoon wrote...

A very well written post, I have to admit. But I would like to have your opinion on this little quote of Casey Hudson from an interview regarding mass effect: 3:

"There is a huge set of consequences that start stacking up as you approach the end-game. And even in terms of the ending itself, it continues to break down to some very large decisions. So it's not like a classic game ending where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things - it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who plays it."

For me it suggests that the endings would have to be quite different for many people, which they apparently are not. Either BioWare planned this very well and have something up their sleeves or they lied - blatantly lied - about this, which would be selling a game for something it is not and can be proven to be not. The quote is from the 12th of February 2012, so about a month ago. Here's a link to the interview and the quote should be found right under "Are there alternative endings depending on what you do in the game?".

I'm bringing this up because your post is partially based around the idea that artists have a right to choose their own ending. But BioWare clearly stated that Mass Effect 3 is "[...] not like a classic game ending where everything is linear and ou make a choice between a few things[...]".

Maybe what Casey said was all wrong. But maybe it was the truth and the Indoctrination guys were kind of right. You'd like to give your opinion? I'd love to hear it.

I really don't know what's going on and that's what troubles me so much. I have no idea what the intentions of anyone involved with the project was thinking therefore I cannot give an educated opinion. I do however find it inappropriate to start pointing fingers just yet. The facts aren't in yet!

We can't let fear compromise who we are!

[leianajade]

Fantastic post. Glad to have your well thought input.

[YeGodz]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well the thing about artistic integrity ... there are always critics and there is always criticism. If you write a book someone rates it, if you make a movie, someone rates it, if you make a video game ... guess what. The ending is slobby and badly patched together that's the problem people have with it. It is bad on so many levels that nobody from bioware even makes a statement on it. Because they know. The drones are leaderless, because Bioware doesn't tell them what to think so they go all out "The ending is great!" until Bioware admits it and the drones row back and express their love even more. It is really ridiculous to see how people don't even recognize that the ending is that terrible. This is not such a big movement for no reason. It is so big because EVERYONE SHOULD SEE the problem with the ending, even hardcore fans. But they don't want to. They rather lie to themselves and everyone around them. We had the same with DA2. The drones called it 'Masterpiece' and 'Best Game Ever'. That's how much their opinion is worth.

See, this, right here, is why the BSN sucks. Don't rant in ALL CAPS about how how the ending kicked your puppy? Drone. Don't get weepy because "Bioware betrayed us!!1!"? Drone. See? EVERYONE SHOULD SEE how terrible it was! The echo chamber says so! Total consensus!

And don't you dare use the words "vocal" and "minority" in the same breath. They'll cry even harder.

Hey Bioware, if you're serious about moderation, now's the time to prove it. Because calling the BSN a cesspoool would do a disservice to human waste.

[eoinnx03]

Taboo-XX wrote...

 (This is an open letter in so far as it can be posted anywhere and under any pretenses. This has been designed to create a level headed communication between fans, artists and everyone in between.)

I've been thinking silently for the last few days, thinking about what I perceive to be a legitamate sociological phenomenon. For the first time in my memory a distinct mobilization of gamers have set forth and demanded answers about something that is either being generally misunderstood or being criticized for an apparent lack of effort. I've summed up the general consensus' of Mass Effect 3's ending's.

1. Acceptance- This group has accepted the ending as is, and at this time is the vocal minority.

2. Befuddlement- This group denies any rational plausibility that the current endings are in anyway realistic and have come up with their own theories as to what really happened (Great job on the indoctrination theory guys and gals.)

3. Emotional Devastation- This group consists of people who are legitmatly hurt, confused and frustrated by the lack of intellectual and emotional pay offs. I consider myself to be a part of this group.

All these groups have every right to exist, as opinion is the greatest strength of art.

The Key Issues: Artistry, Verisimilitude and Economic Ramifications.

1. The key concept of art.

Art is first and foremost an expression of the artist and it is wholly up to them how their product is finished. Input can certainly play a part but severe interference is not necessary. No one had the right to tell da Vinci that the Mona Lisa needed to smile or that Michaelangelo needed to put pants on David. Those were not the public's choice to make. However the staggering amount of backlash has put the entire gaming world into the public eye. Is it ethical to demand changes because we find it to be offense? I certainly would never put pants on David, simply because Michaelangelo sculpted his statue that way.

2. Verisimilitude

Truth, I believe is an objective in art and something that everyone should stive for regardless of their genre of output. I consider myself a film student before a gamer and am personally no stranger to artistic scientific expression. I count 2001: A Space Odyssey, The Man Who Fell to Earth and the two Andrei Tarkovsky films Solaris (the original) and Stalker to be the some of the greatest examples of contemplative sciene fiction the art medium has ever seen. These films derive strength from open-endedness and intepretation rather than direct emotional responses (sometimes the emotional payoff comes from the interpretation). I will readily accept these as fact if Bioware will confirm this was their original intention.

In contrast however, I cannot dismiss the overall structure of Mass Effect's very nature. The game by it's very nature feels film-like to me ( cut scenes mimic the hand-held camera effect sometimes and film grain is soooo much nerdy fun). This type of film-making compliments realism and gives the impression that we are "in the moment". A great example of this are the opening twenty minutes or so of Saving Private Ryan.

Everything leading up to the finale suggests a type of hardcore realism ( the descriptions in the codex give credibility to the science!) and quite literally takes a type of Kafka-esque ( or David Lynchian for those familiar with film)180 to something entirely different. This type of expression while certainly an exciting and clever genre has a tendency to alienate people who are not familiar with it. The entire events surrounding the "Indoctrination" Theory give credit to this idea seeing as these are often discussion topics that come up when discussion a film like Mulholland Drive or a novel like The Trial. This shift is quite alarming to some people including myself but not altogether unpleasent.

This distinct 180 has left more unanswered questions than anything I've ever seen before in the gaming medium, some directly contradicting canon logic and sometimes even common sense. (Garrus was with me during the run to the beam but somehow ended up on the Normandy.) This lack of finite structure cripples the game in many ways, simply because we do not know what the intention was. If Bioware's intent was to be artistic, I really wish they would say so.

3. Economic Ramifications

The economic ramifications to the endings are abundantly clear. The game has dropped in price by as much as fifteen dollars. For something as hot and becoming as Mass Effect this comes as a distinct suprise. I will not comment on personal motivations by any company or producer as I feel it would be incredibly inappropriate to do so without all the facts.

Looking forward: The Sound of Silence and Re-taking Mass Effect

The Sound of Silence

I find the amount of silence from developers to me a mixed message, as if they don't know what to do or are secretly planning something to wow us. Occam's Razor however suggests otherwise. I really think that the key issue here is the lack of communication, silence is not comforting to people in this situation and the further lack of communication can only make things worse for everyone involved. People like myself want to know intention of expression for a cleared state of mind.


Re-taking Mass Effect

This campaign should prove to anyone involved that Bioware has some of the greatest fans in the history of gaming. People are literally so involved with your series that they want to make it into their own form of expression. This contradicts my earlier statement about artistic integrity but one cannot dismiss the outpouring of fan responses. This is an unprecedented event in gaming history. At this time the Re-take Mass Effect campaign has over twenty thousand likers on Facebook. Can anyone imagine twenty thousand people? Truly picture it in your head!

If you've read this far ( I talk too much I know), I thank you personally and would like to hear feedback from everyone (devolpers as well if at all possible!). I would also not mind this being shared as I consider this to be a summation of what everyone  (hopefully) wants.

In regards to the topic spreading, Peter Gabriel said it best-

You can blow out a candle
But you can't blow out a fire
Once the flames begin to catch
The wind will blow it higher.

The OP is a hero. Well done!

[Taboo]

 The key issue I have is that I have no idea how to interpret it! I had no problem understanding the ending to Dragon Age II because everything made sense.

As I see it if interpreted literally like the rest of series it's a colossal misstep. It makes no sense. It feels like a group of film scenes stiched together with any lucidity!

Interpreted in a surreal fashion, it could quite possibly be the ballsiest thing ever.

But we have no input, so I feel kind of left behind.

Elucidate! Elucidate!

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 13 mars 2012 - 10:46 .

[darkshadow136]

Awesome OP. I totally agree their silence can only further the PR nightmare for Bioware.

if you want your voice heard louder got to my blog which I have a link too in my Sig , click on my ME3 review and click on the links to my polls.

1. would you Boycott Bioware if they don't fix the endings
2. do you believe Multiplayer should have no impact on the single player campaign
3. Facebook Campaign demand better endings for ME3

[congokurtz]

Great post. I'm in a similar state as the OP, just mostly confused about the ending. I sincerely hope BW address the issue soon. As it stands now I'm just disappointed in the conclusion and how jarring the ending is from the rest of the 'player choice matters' theme of the series.

[Fail_Inc]

bump so people can find good stuff like this not those "omg you dont understand the ending nabz" posts.

[eoinnx03]

Just fantastic. Would love if Bioware would look.

[Taboo]

That's my intention. I get the sense that most people are simply confused by the lack of communication. If people could post this letter to websites it might get better coverage. The only reason I ask for that is because I truly want to lessen the impending implosion from within.

[dallicant]

Very well done, OP.

I think it ties into the issue as to who "owns" an artistic work: the creator or the consumer. There's not really any set-in-stone answer to this question. Rather, it's more like an ongoing conversation, of which the Mass Effect 3 controversy is the most recent example.

BioWare has the right to end the series as they deem fit. At the same time, as consumers who have invested time and money into the series, the consumers have the right to criticize and withdraw their support. BioWare needs to decide whether they want to stick with their vision for the ending (which I and many others consider flawed) or if they will accede to audience demand. There's also the possibility that EA forced BioWare to release the game before it was truly ready, which complicates the issue even further.

The problem with always giving into the audience is that doing so can sometimes limit the artist's growth. He or she ends up doing the same thing over and over again. If the artist goes against what the audience wants, there's the risk of losing all support and sinking into obscurity. For some, this is an acceptable price to pay. Others are able to find a balance between the two. It's also interesting that the idea of art as personal expression is relatively new; as another poster mentioned, through most of history art was done to fulfill the needs of specific patrons.

I also think that the problem with the ending was not so much that they switched genres, it's just that the switch made little sense and failed to be very interesting. Also, nice Tarkovsky reference. I saw Solaris back in 9th grade, when I was quite frankly too young to really appreciate it. Even so, the film stayed with me, and I enjoyed it enough to watch the entirety.