185 réponses à ce sujet

[UK Wildcat]

Makatak wrote...

UK Wildcat wrote...

Makatak wrote...

UK Wildcat wrote...

Why bring a human engineer versus Geth? I'm yet to see any reason on time-completion. Energy drain is more useful than overload. Others can overload. There's no reason to bring an engineer and plenty of reasons not to. Any class is potentially more useful from amongst the classes that serve in the same role.

Human Engineer's Overload will probably have a shorter cooldown time than, say, the Turian Sentinel (especially if he has Tech Armor up...which, being a Sentinel...he should). This will set up Tech Bursts for improved damage. Chain Overload in particular will be even more useful for this, as it sets up three targets instead of one for the extra damage from Tech Bursting.

If you are bringing a human engineer for damage, why not bring a class that does more damage more rapidly?  The entire point of my rating system is efficiency, not 'can this class be effective in my mind or can I beat gold with this class'

Because not all damage is modified the same. Facing Geth and Cerberus, you're going to fight waves of several grouped opponents who are protected by shields. Chain Overloads will wipe those away much faster than...well, pretty much anything else out there, allowing soldiers, adepts, or other classes to bring out their abilities on the health bar. Or, conveniently, Engineers' Combat Drone when exploding has a great AoE component to it.

Also, you did this in the demo as well, from what I recall of your writings; you don't account for combo damage nearly as much as people in Gold should be; I don't know what your times look like, but pulling 22 minute gold runs regularly is a result of people comboing abilities: tech bursts, biotic, cryo, and fire explosions. Especially now after the Quarian Infiltrator nerf, a lot of the efficiency of gold runs vs. geth and cerberus is going to come from chain overload and biotic explosions.

I've posted times running at 18:00.  22 is about 2-3 mins above average with the builds I've listed as more effective, although still a decent time.

[UK Wildcat]

-Jaren- wrote...

I'll eventually read the rest of this thread but I have to add now that their is no way a Human Sentinel is in the worst class bracket. Spec biotic explosions on Throw and Warp and you have yourself an insanely powerful character.

And I'm sure a lot of people have already stated it, but class builds should only be rated by class and not guns. Silly to do it any other way.

The reason human sentinel is bad, is because it is a more useless version of the Asari Adept. 

Also, ignoring guns makes no sense at all in this game.  classes do not exist in a vacuum.  Your class efficiency scales with your weapon choice PARTICULARLY based on the weight of the weapons you are using.  You even have talents in your class geared towards certain guns, so it absolutely makes sense to incorporate guns into builds.

Modifié par UK Wildcat, 14 mars 2012 - 05:13 .

[RamsenC]

No class with throw and warp should be considered bad period. I don't care if there's 10 classes with throw and warp, they should all be top tier.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

RamsenC wrote...

No class with throw and warp should be considered bad period. I don't care if there's 10 classes with throw and warp, they should all be top tier.

Agreed. Human Sentinel completely trounces Geth and Reapers, and vs Cerby makes short work of atlases, turrets and engineers (and can fend off guardians).

Very underrated class, tech armor or not.

[Makatak]

UK Wildcat wrote...

-Jaren- wrote...

I'll eventually read the rest of this thread but I have to add now that their is no way a Human Sentinel is in the worst class bracket. Spec biotic explosions on Throw and Warp and you have yourself an insanely powerful character.

And I'm sure a lot of people have already stated it, but class builds should only be rated by class and not guns. Silly to do it any other way.

The reason human engineer is bad, is because it is a more useless version of the Asari Adept. 

Also, ignoring guns makes no sense at all in this game.  classes do not exist in a vacuum.  Your class efficiency scales with your weapon choice PARTICULARLY based on the weight of the weapons you are using.  You even have talents in your class geared towards certain guns, so it absolutely makes sense to incorporate guns into builds.

I think you mean Human Sentinel, and it's not a worse version, just different. Hits harder, hits less. But there's entire threads on what to do to make the Sentinel worth using; lacking an asari Adept, it's what I have to roll with.

But this brings about the larger point, not everyone's unlocked all of the guns, not to mention all of the classes. Contrary to EA's belief, not all of us want to spend real money on the game. So saying, "When you equip your Widow X" immediately strikes your point of any relevance to certain people, myself included.

In any case, hey man, what works for you, fine. But this guide ain't gospel, and I think that's been proved time and again across 4 pages.

But I think, rather than a 'best' and 'worst' guide that relies on not only class but weapon unlocks before its information begins to become relevant, one should focus on how to make each class synergize with its player. Like it's been said before, even the Turian Soldier can be useful when played the right way, but most people are going to find the class clunky. I'm one of those people, but I might not have the equipment to make certain evolutions of Marksman viable, despite their being incredible and awesome when paired with said equipment.

To bounce off that point, I'm not the greatest with the Vanguard. I know some people, including my normal teammates, who can be. I don't think the Vanguard's a bad class because I don't know how to use it with all its intricacies that my teammates understand, and I wouldn't dare hop to the forums and make such a bold statement, despite the plethora of noobs who run around and charge/nova enemies, even on Silver, and have to be revived 3 times a wave on anything above Wave 6. All you're going to get from this "guide" is a bunch of people coming forward to defend their classes that they know they play well with for reasons you may not have had time or interest to explore. And, with the game being out a week, it's impossible to have mastered every evolution of every class as one person; as a collective group, however, we can all help each other.

Modifié par Makatak, 14 mars 2012 - 05:14 .

[-Jaren-]

UK Wildcat wrote...

-Jaren- wrote...

I'll eventually read the rest of this thread but I have to add now that their is no way a Human Sentinel is in the worst class bracket. Spec biotic explosions on Throw and Warp and you have yourself an insanely powerful character.

And I'm sure a lot of people have already stated it, but class builds should only be rated by class and not guns. Silly to do it any other way.

The reason human engineer is bad, is because it is a more useless version of the Asari Adept. 

Also, ignoring guns makes no sense at all in this game.  classes do not exist in a vacuum.  Your class efficiency scales with your weapon choice PARTICULARLY based on the weight of the weapons you are using.  You even have talents in your class geared towards certain guns, so it absolutely makes sense to incorporate guns into builds.

*cough Human Sentinel cough*    

Anywho, lets talk about a few things.  Drell Adept needs to definitely be on the "faster clear" class.  AoE Reave detonated by a Warp specced for biotic explosions and Pierce is one of the most powerful combos in this game.  We just completed a Gold Geth run with my Drell Adept and a Human Sentinel holding down the top spot on White, while our QI and Salarian Engineer were holding down the bottom stairs.  18 mins and change.  3 players had over 85K in points.  I'm afraid of preaching love for my biotic explosions for fear Bioware will nerf them...

We can't start talking about individual class performance on Gold, because Gold inherently needs teammates to complete in a speedy manner.  I am fully aware of Soldier damage with upgraded guns.  It's massive.  But there is something wrong in the fact that it needs better guns to compete for speed runs.  9 out of 10 people playing this game do not have fully upgraded guns.  Nor will they ever.  Would I like my Phalanx upgraded to 10?  Hell yes I would.  But it's currently sitting at 3.  And we still rock 18 minute clears. 

I guess my question is this; How long of play time and luck involved (>.< RNG!) goes into making a Soldier really powerful versus owning face with other classes NATURAL abilities?

[UK Wildcat]

You guys are right, I was referring to Human Sentinel in my response post just now, I went back and corrected it. I had an old person disconnect between my head and what I was reading apparently.

I was looking at the other posts saying 'warp and throw' and assuming that's the subject being talked about.

[UK Wildcat]

Makatak wrote...

But this brings about the larger point, not everyone's unlocked all of the guns, not to mention all of the classes. Contrary to EA's belief, not all of us want to spend real money on the game. So saying, "When you equip your Widow X" immediately strikes your point of any relevance to certain people, myself included.

In any case, hey man, what works for you, fine. But this guide ain't gospel, and I think that's been proved time and again across 4 pages.

But I think, rather than a 'best' and 'worst' guide that relies on not only class but weapon unlocks before its information begins to become relevant, one should focus on how to make each class synergize with its player. Like it's been said before, even the Turian Soldier can be useful when played the right way, but most people are going to find the class clunky. I'm one of those people, but I might not have the equipment to make certain evolutions of Marksman viable, despite their being incredible and awesome when paired with said equipment.

Hey Mak, I agree not everyone has all of the weapons or all of the classes.  I have unlocked all of the classes, but not all of the weapons yet.  Also, I don't have all of the evolutions obviously

This analysis isn't gospel, that's obvious.  There's always a bit of subjective tailoring of one's opinion.  However, I have tried to provide analysis rather than good bad rankings without elaborating.

I am fallible, concede the point.  I am, however, also willing to test anything I write here and ask others to do the same.  The categories I've crafted are based upon the numerous games I've been a part of and the clearing times of each game, rotating in and out different teammates playing different classes.

As to the human engineer, I don't have it ranked as one of the worst classes, sorry if there's confusion.  I believe it's useful, I conceded that in the original post.  I simply don't believe it's as useful as some of the 'best' classes for CLEARING TIME OF GOLD.

One area that my 'guide' if you want to call it that doesn't touch on are the various permutations for maximum efficiency based on all classes with reset talent points and geared toward biotic combos; I will grant that.  I am up for extensively testing that and compiling more information in the future.

Modifié par UK Wildcat, 14 mars 2012 - 05:25 .

[UK Wildcat]

-Jaren- wrote...

UK Wildcat wrote...

-Jaren- wrote...

I'll eventually read the rest of this thread but I have to add now that their is no way a Human Sentinel is in the worst class bracket. Spec biotic explosions on Throw and Warp and you have yourself an insanely powerful character.

And I'm sure a lot of people have already stated it, but class builds should only be rated by class and not guns. Silly to do it any other way.

The reason human engineer is bad, is because it is a more useless version of the Asari Adept. 

Also, ignoring guns makes no sense at all in this game.  classes do not exist in a vacuum.  Your class efficiency scales with your weapon choice PARTICULARLY based on the weight of the weapons you are using.  You even have talents in your class geared towards certain guns, so it absolutely makes sense to incorporate guns into builds.

*cough Human Sentinel cough*    

Anywho, lets talk about a few things.  Drell Adept needs to definitely be on the "faster clear" class.  AoE Reave detonated by a Warp specced for biotic explosions and Pierce is one of the most powerful combos in this game.  We just completed a Gold Geth run with my Drell Adept and a Human Sentinel holding down the top spot on White, while our QI and Salarian Engineer were holding down the bottom stairs.  18 mins and change.  3 players had over 85K in points.  I'm afraid of preaching love for my biotic explosions for fear Bioware will nerf them...

We can't start talking about individual class performance on Gold, because Gold inherently needs teammates to complete in a speedy manner.  I am fully aware of Soldier damage with upgraded guns.  It's massive.  But there is something wrong in the fact that it needs better guns to compete for speed runs.  9 out of 10 people playing this game do not have fully upgraded guns.  Nor will they ever.  Would I like my Phalanx upgraded to 10?  Hell yes I would.  But it's currently sitting at 3.  And we still rock 18 minute clears. 

I guess my question is this; How long of play time and luck involved (>.< RNG!) goes into making a Soldier really powerful versus owning face with other classes NATURAL abilities?

Hey Jaren, that class synergy is awesome, particularly if you guys are clearing that fast.  I do believe 17-18 to probably be approaching the cap for speed clears assuming you don't tailor your approach to locking down spawns / missiling everything.

As to the soldier question, it's absolutely RNG (assuming the system is completely random; which I'm not sure it is, but I don't want to digress).  But soldiers with great weapons are fantastic.

I'm open to grouping with anyone on gold that is a great player and wants to push speed runs assuming that person is playing on PC.  I will try out and class combos on any opposing enemy faction.

[mysticforce42]

When you get right down to it, there ought to be two lists.

The first list rates how each class performs on Gold without having to rely on other classes to create synergy. To further clarify things, maybe there should be two rankings - one for operating at base weapon levels, and one for having level 5+ weapons.

The second list rates the best group composition for Gold, where power and weapon combos can be rated with a reasonable metric.

[-Jaren-]

UK Wildcat wrote...

-Jaren- wrote...

UK Wildcat wrote...

-Jaren- wrote...

I'll eventually read the rest of this thread but I have to add now that their is no way a Human Sentinel is in the worst class bracket. Spec biotic explosions on Throw and Warp and you have yourself an insanely powerful character.

And I'm sure a lot of people have already stated it, but class builds should only be rated by class and not guns. Silly to do it any other way.

The reason human engineer is bad, is because it is a more useless version of the Asari Adept. 

Also, ignoring guns makes no sense at all in this game.  classes do not exist in a vacuum.  Your class efficiency scales with your weapon choice PARTICULARLY based on the weight of the weapons you are using.  You even have talents in your class geared towards certain guns, so it absolutely makes sense to incorporate guns into builds.

*cough Human Sentinel cough*    

Anywho, lets talk about a few things.  Drell Adept needs to definitely be on the "faster clear" class.  AoE Reave detonated by a Warp specced for biotic explosions and Pierce is one of the most powerful combos in this game.  We just completed a Gold Geth run with my Drell Adept and a Human Sentinel holding down the top spot on White, while our QI and Salarian Engineer were holding down the bottom stairs.  18 mins and change.  3 players had over 85K in points.  I'm afraid of preaching love for my biotic explosions for fear Bioware will nerf them...

We can't start talking about individual class performance on Gold, because Gold inherently needs teammates to complete in a speedy manner.  I am fully aware of Soldier damage with upgraded guns.  It's massive.  But there is something wrong in the fact that it needs better guns to compete for speed runs.  9 out of 10 people playing this game do not have fully upgraded guns.  Nor will they ever.  Would I like my Phalanx upgraded to 10?  Hell yes I would.  But it's currently sitting at 3.  And we still rock 18 minute clears. 

I guess my question is this; How long of play time and luck involved (>.< RNG!) goes into making a Soldier really powerful versus owning face with other classes NATURAL abilities?

Hey Jaren, that class synergy is awesome, particularly if you guys are clearing that fast.  I do believe 17-18 to probably be approaching the cap for speed clears assuming you don't tailor your approach to locking down spawns / missiling everything.

As to the soldier question, it's absolutely RNG (assuming the system is completely random; which I'm not sure it is, but I don't want to digress).  But soldiers with great weapons are fantastic.

I'm open to grouping with anyone on gold that is a great player and wants to push speed runs assuming that person is playing on PC.  I will try out and class combos on any opposing enemy faction.

I'm an XBL player so unfortunately we can't play together.  Wish we could. 

And my homies and I are really conservative about our missiles.  Only time I personally think to grab one out, is if I see two heavies right next to eachother. 

I'm also glad you have such Soldier support and love.  It's a beast of a class!  Just not early on unfortunately.  It needs a little love from the Spectre Gods.

[UK Wildcat]

mysticforce42 wrote...

When you get right down to it, there ought to be two lists.

The first list rates how each class performs on Gold without having to rely on other classes to create synergy. To further clarify things, maybe there should be two rankings - one for operating at base weapon levels, and one for having level 5+ weapons.

The second list rates the best group composition for Gold, where power and weapon combos can be rated with a reasonable metric.

This list was mostly tailored to individual performance on Gold based on having access potentially to certain weapon unlocks.  The read can adjust their opinions based on the level of unlocks they have.  Obviously Soldier will be sliding on relative effectiveness level based upon weapon access.

I will extensively test group combos now for synergy and see if I can deduce some form of rhyme or reason for ranking the class compositions in that fashion.

Testing Volunteers for Speed Runs appreciated.  Put your ninja alien suits on

[mysticforce42]

UK Wildcat wrote...

mysticforce42 wrote...

When you get right down to it, there ought to be two lists.

The first list rates how each class performs on Gold without having to rely on other classes to create synergy. To further clarify things, maybe there should be two rankings - one for operating at base weapon levels, and one for having level 5+ weapons.

The second list rates the best group composition for Gold, where power and weapon combos can be rated with a reasonable metric.

This list was mostly tailored to individual performance on Gold based on having access potentially to certain weapon unlocks.  The read can adjust their opinions based on the level of unlocks they have.  Obviously Soldier will be sliding on relative effectiveness level based upon weapon access.

I will extensively test group combos now for synergy and see if I can deduce some form of rhyme or reason for ranking the class compositions in that fashion.

Testing Volunteers for Speed Runs appreciated.  Put your ninja alien suits on

Oh I agree with your list (forgot to put that down in my original post), I was trying to figure out a way to address the points raised on the thread, and the best way to do that seems to just have clear-set categories and seperate lists.

Personally I am a little annoyed that the Krogan Soldier and Krogan Sentinel might as well be the same class on Gold.  Maxing tanking abilities and just rely on weapons works, at least for me, far better than Carnage spam.  Which is pretty sad considering Carnage is a good skill - but the Krogan's lack of mobility and size (it's a great feeling to duck behind cover to recharge shields...and realize things can still hit you) makes it far better to just bring somebody with mobility and Incinerate instead.

Modifié par mysticforce42, 14 mars 2012 - 05:36 .

[Sabresandiego]

Soldier is completely dependant on the falcon to be a competetive class. That gun is probably going to get nerfed, and soldier will end up near the bottom again. Thats why soldiers remain on the bottom on my ratings.

[COdeNameSly]

mysticforce42 wrote...
Personally I am a little annoyed that the Krogan Soldier and Krogan Sentinel might as well be the same class on Gold.  Maxing tanking abilities and just rely on weapons works, at least for me, far better than Carnage spam.  Which is pretty sad considering Carnage is a good skill - but the Krogan's lack of mobility and size (it's a great feeling to duck behind cover to recharge shields...and realize things can still hit you) makes it far better to just bring somebody with mobility and Incinerate instead.

I agree. In fact, Krogan Sentinel is pretty much hands down better, since Tech Armor provides a constant melee damage bonus and gives more DR. The Krogan Soldier needs some way to better scale with weapons. I've tried an all-out Carnage spam build and it does quite well on Silver, but the damage would be weak in Gold.

[UK Wildcat]

I'm planning on editing the original post again to allow for class synergy, I will make detailed notes explaining the potential variation on individual effectiveness in a group versus a group tailored to certain methods of efficiency (everyone chaining biotic explosions etc).

I think that will better remedy some of the discrepancies in opinions, and account more efficiently for group clears.

Modifié par UK Wildcat, 14 mars 2012 - 07:11 .

[Giantdeathrobot]

I've had a lot of success with my human engineer. Chain Overload + Neural Shock + Incinerate for tech comb makes for a very good support combo. I never have the most points (that goes to Salarian infiltrators with Widows/Black Widows, every time) but I usually hit 50 assists in the third or fourth wave, and especialy against Cerberus stun-locking entire groups can make things much, much easier.

Also, anyone has a video of Reapers being beaten on Gold? I simply can't see how it's possible unless everybody has +2 missile capacity or something. 4 Banshees at once on wave 6???

[woah_geez]

RamsenC wrote...

Human Sentinel deserves to be on the list of best imo. If you use a respec card you can completely ignore tech armor, which allows you to max out throw/warp and your two passives. You also get 20% weight reduction to all weapons, unlike the Asari.

Yes the Asari has stasis, but no fitness is rough if you also want to be exploding things. I'd rather have one teammate focus on warp exploding, while the other focuses on stasis. Doing both can be rough on the cooldowns.

This, human sentinel can do more damage and have more health and shields than an asari adept. I would still say stasis makes the asari adept better overall though.

[Nocturnalfox]

My problem with this silly little list is people WILL read into it to much and assume that if you like one of the "least" characters you may end up getting kicked by some A hole who cant play that class and reads and thinks that all players are who pick that are bad.
I use my Quarian Infiltrator for gold on everything, even the reapers and I regularly get to wave 8 without being left behind in points (usually second).

Example, Krogan soldiers, have you not seen the vid of 4 Krogan soldiers completing gold? According to this list it should of taken forever or they should of got slaughtered, they cleared it in 34 minutes.

[UK Wildcat]

Nocturnalfox wrote...

My problem with this silly little list is people WILL read into it to much and assume that if you like one of the "least" characters you may end up getting kicked by some A hole who cant play that class and reads and thinks that all players are who pick that are bad.
I use my Quarian Infiltrator for gold on everything, even the reapers and I regularly get to wave 8 without being left behind in points (usually second).

Example, Krogan soldiers, have you not seen the vid of 4 Krogan soldiers completing gold? According to this list it should of taken forever or they should of got slaughtered, they cleared it in 34 minutes.

One video of krogan soldiers beating gold in 34 mins is irrelevant.  Picking the exception to a rule to disprove a generality regarding effectiveness if humorous or 'silly' as you put it.

34 mins is terrible.  it's funny that they beat gold.  Anyone can beat gold.  I beat gold on level 1 characters.  If I post a screenshot of all level 1's beating a gold will that mean level 1s are great to take along?

[Nocturnalfox]

My point is any class can be good provided it is used in the right hands by the right person, this list is just YOUR preferences on what you think is good.

One exception doesn't make sense either, this wasn't 1 krogan in a squad, it was 4 and they still pulled it off in good time.

[UK Wildcat]

Nocturnalfox wrote...

My point is any class can be good provided it is used in the right hands by the right person, this list is just YOUR preferences on what you think is good.

One exception doesn't make sense either, this wasn't 1 krogan in a squad, it was 4 and they still pulled it off in good time.

Efficiency.  Post pictures of krogans clearing all the stages rapidly.  This is a guide about efficiency, not about which classes can clear gold.  All classes/levels can clear gold.

[Malanek]

royard wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Diablerist666 wrote...

Every Adept is good on Gold. Especially if u got someone to detonate. Detonating yourself is a little less efficient. And only the Drell Adept can't detonate protected enemies by himself. Well he can with Grenades, but running for Grenades is a little tedious.

Reave detonates pull doesn't it?

See bolded words. 

 I played through the entire game as an adept and didn't realise you could create warp explosions off protected enemies. That is a huge change from ME2. My bad.

[Nocturnalfox]

UK Wildcat wrote...

Nocturnalfox wrote...

My point is any class can be good provided it is used in the right hands by the right person, this list is just YOUR preferences on what you think is good.

One exception doesn't make sense either, this wasn't 1 krogan in a squad, it was 4 and they still pulled it off in good time.

Efficiency.  Post pictures of krogans clearing all the stages rapidly.  This is a guide about efficiency, not about which classes can clear gold.  All classes/levels can clear gold.

 
Go watch it.37 minutes is still pretty efficient.

Modifié par Nocturnalfox, 14 mars 2012 - 08:27 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

Nocturnalfox wrote...

UK Wildcat wrote...

Nocturnalfox wrote...

My point is any class can be good provided it is used in the right hands by the right person, this list is just YOUR preferences on what you think is good.

One exception doesn't make sense either, this wasn't 1 krogan in a squad, it was 4 and they still pulled it off in good time.

Efficiency.  Post pictures of krogans clearing all the stages rapidly.  This is a guide about efficiency, not about which classes can clear gold.  All classes/levels can clear gold.

 
Go watch it.37 minutes is still pretty efficient.

UK is super arrogant and annoying, but you're missing the point still. Very efficient teams can win almost 2 golds in 37 minutes