185 réponses à ce sujet

[SinerAthin]

Human sentinels are pretty badass at holding the line.


They can virtually spam tech armor & grab whenever the enemy tries to storm their position.


It's especially effective versus massed waves of super fast Geth hunters.

[Ayeba]

Since this seems like a good place to ask: How do you deal quickly with Banshees, short of a missile launcher? I mean, with any class? I consider Banshees the ultimate bunker buster. While it's not extremely dangerous on their own (fairly easy to avoid attacks), the fact that they force you out of cover makes you easy pickings for lesser enemies (Marauders in particular). Hints, please?

[EvilGeth]

UK Wildcat wrote...

*cropped*

-Krogan Soldier: Simply put, inferior to the Sentinel.  Inferno grenade is okay.  Carnage is bad.  I see no reason to play a Krogan Soldier on Gold over a Sentinel UNLESS you want to make Krogan Youtube videos or something.

At level 11 in gold carnage was ripping through armored targets like no tommorow :/   Brutes, Banshees(when barrier removed) and ravagers became easy -.-

[mysticforce42]

HaesoME3 wrote...

mysticforce42 wrote...

HaesoME3 wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

The DPS figures listed on that spreadsheet are wrong.

Regardless of how accurate or inaccurate the listed DPS is - the ROF and raw damage is accurate - the Saber is a terrible weapon.

DPS on that spreadsheet is inaccurate and rounds per clip is inaccurate for some weapons as well. 

I wasn't terribly impressed with the Sabre when I first got it, but wait until it levels a bit and use it with Marksman - 8 shots means you don't waste time reloading, which improves overall RoF over each reload.  Use it with AR and take down a shielded mob on Gold with 4 shots to the Black Widow's 3...and you still have another 4 shots before you have to reload.  In general, higher clip gives you more flexibility and advantage over shield mechanics on Gold.

It's easier to think of it as a sniper rifle with high clip and high RoF (for sniper rifles), or a Canifax with higher clip, higher damage but slower RoF.

The only inaccuracies stem from it being datamined and not updated since demo.

Except it's significantly worse than the carnifex and paladin. It fires slower, is only marginally more accurate, and has comparable damage. All for weighing about 100% recharge more.

Though it's becoming outdated with mp adjustments, it's still overall a good representation - I can go ahead and datamine the RoF and damage/hit if you like and show you quite plainly it's a terrible weapon.

If you're using the black widow with AR and taking three shots to kill something you're doing something horribly wrong. Not to mention with a soldier you can reload using AR and reload-cancel with grenades... Reload times are almost entirely inconsequential.  Not to mention even further the Falcon weighs the same as a saber, has marginally less damage, fires much faster, has only two less rounds to a clip - but is AoE and only a silver or gold weapon, not an N7 weapon.

The saber is a terrible weapon compared to alternatives, the paladin/carnifex both make better snipers for less weight, especially with soldiers or any class that can grenade reload. The falcon makes a better basically everything but headshot sniper.

I agree that the spreadsheet is generally a good guide, but I think you are missing the forrest for the trees.

Damage and RoF are good indicators when comparing weapons when looking purely at DPS, which is an accurate measure if we ignore shield mechanics in Gold.  The fact that a single point of shield/barrier will absorb all damage from one shot makes weapons with higher clips more efficient.  If you can manage to kill, say, a Phantom with 2 shots on a Black Widow with AR then please share your secret, because I don't see how you can get past the shields with less than 2 shots.  Remember, we are talking Soldiers here, not Infiltrators so there's no ED to fall back on.

I don't think anyone's going to argue that the Falcon is by far the best assult rifle - and probably one of the best weapons in general right now.  My original post was addressed to a poster who believed Soldiers would be useless when the Falcon gets nerfed, so I was presenting the Sabre as another example of a weapon that synergizes with Soldiers very well.

Reload times can be cut with the reload trick - but it is still a break in damage, and potentially leaving a priority enemy alive and letting those pesky close-combat variants get closer to you.  How many times have you had to reload when your target would be dead with another shot when running around witha  Carni or Paladin? I know it certainly happens to me quite a bit.  This is when 8 rounds work better than 6 (or fewer).

Yeah, it's heavy.  Yeah, it'll take forever to level.  Arguing about Sabre vs Carni vs Paladin is like arguing about Mantix vs Widow vs Black Widow - they all can work and each has their strengths and weaknesses based on situation.

[PluralAces]

I would understand this thread if I knew what the abbreviations meant...smh

[UK Wildcat]

Due to popular demand, I have changed the relative rating of the Human Sentinel and updated the initial page with the following entry:

-Human Sentinel: Only has warp throw combo combined with tech armor.  No point in selecting a human sentinel over an asari adept, but still not horrible.  class moved to the middle of the pack.  Biotic explosions are good, but a lack of any CC makes this class inferior to others that can fill the same role with more useful abilities.

Human Sentinel isn't as bad as I initially rated it.  I rated it too low based on the fact that it is 100% inferior to asari adept, but it is still more useful than the others in the worst category, while not good enough to qualify for the best category in terms of GOLD CLEARING EFFICIENCY.

Modifié par UK Wildcat, 15 mars 2012 - 03:00 .

[HaesoME3]

mysticforce42 wrote...

HaesoME3 wrote...

mysticforce42 wrote...

HaesoME3 wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

The DPS figures listed on that spreadsheet are wrong.

Regardless of how accurate or inaccurate the listed DPS is - the ROF and raw damage is accurate - the Saber is a terrible weapon.

DPS on that spreadsheet is inaccurate and rounds per clip is inaccurate for some weapons as well. 

I wasn't terribly impressed with the Sabre when I first got it, but wait until it levels a bit and use it with Marksman - 8 shots means you don't waste time reloading, which improves overall RoF over each reload.  Use it with AR and take down a shielded mob on Gold with 4 shots to the Black Widow's 3...and you still have another 4 shots before you have to reload.  In general, higher clip gives you more flexibility and advantage over shield mechanics on Gold.

It's easier to think of it as a sniper rifle with high clip and high RoF (for sniper rifles), or a Canifax with higher clip, higher damage but slower RoF.

The only inaccuracies stem from it being datamined and not updated since demo.

Except it's significantly worse than the carnifex and paladin. It fires slower, is only marginally more accurate, and has comparable damage. All for weighing about 100% recharge more.

Though it's becoming outdated with mp adjustments, it's still overall a good representation - I can go ahead and datamine the RoF and damage/hit if you like and show you quite plainly it's a terrible weapon.

If you're using the black widow with AR and taking three shots to kill something you're doing something horribly wrong. Not to mention with a soldier you can reload using AR and reload-cancel with grenades... Reload times are almost entirely inconsequential.  Not to mention even further the Falcon weighs the same as a saber, has marginally less damage, fires much faster, has only two less rounds to a clip - but is AoE and only a silver or gold weapon, not an N7 weapon.

The saber is a terrible weapon compared to alternatives, the paladin/carnifex both make better snipers for less weight, especially with soldiers or any class that can grenade reload. The falcon makes a better basically everything but headshot sniper.

I agree that the spreadsheet is generally a good guide, but I think you are missing the forrest for the trees.

Damage and RoF are good indicators when comparing weapons when looking purely at DPS, which is an accurate measure if we ignore shield mechanics in Gold.  The fact that a single point of shield/barrier will absorb all damage from one shot makes weapons with higher clips more efficient.  If you can manage to kill, say, a Phantom with 2 shots on a Black Widow with AR then please share your secret, because I don't see how you can get past the shields with less than 2 shots.  Remember, we are talking Soldiers here, not Infiltrators so there's no ED to fall back on.

I don't think anyone's going to argue that the Falcon is by far the best assult rifle - and probably one of the best weapons in general right now.  My original post was addressed to a poster who believed Soldiers would be useless when the Falcon gets nerfed, so I was presenting the Sabre as another example of a weapon that synergizes with Soldiers very well.

Reload times can be cut with the reload trick - but it is still a break in damage, and potentially leaving a priority enemy alive and letting those pesky close-combat variants get closer to you.  How many times have you had to reload when your target would be dead with another shot when running around witha  Carni or Paladin? I know it certainly happens to me quite a bit.  This is when 8 rounds work better than 6 (or fewer).

Yeah, it's heavy.  Yeah, it'll take forever to level.  Arguing about Sabre vs Carni vs Paladin is like arguing about Mantix vs Widow vs Black Widow - they all can work and each has their strengths and weaknesses based on situation.

I'd take a X Carn/paladin over X Saber any day of the week, the speed at which you rank it up is not the reason - the reason is it's worse, it just also happens to be N7 and rank up slowly to put salt in the wound.

You talk about the magazine size, lets talk reload time. 1.5 vs 2.9. Both can be cut in around half with the various reload tricks, saber benefits slightly more than the carnifex and double the paladin from AR reload but almost half for grenade reload. You'll be reloading manually more often than AR reloading if constantly firing. Plus a faster RoF. I can put out more rounds with a paladin than you can with a saber in the same period, each dealing more damage. Or a carnifex for slightly less damage and even higher effective RoF.

The paladin between reload speed and fire rate will put out around as many bullets - All while weighing 90% less and dealing the same damage. 


I don't recall if a headshot with a BW removes all of a phantom's barrier, I know a regular widow does, I also don't have BW X to tell if it does then. It doesn't really matter - play with a team and let someone stasis for you or overload for you, or simply pick a target that's better suited to your weapon. You don't pick off random assault troopers in the back when there's an atlas on top of the group, do you? Priorities. I'd still rather three shot the phantom with a BW and reload, then put over double the DPS of a saber into say an atlas, or get an assault trooper multi-kill, or put down a brute with a few shots -> adrenaline rush -> a few shots without reloading. The saber might get more rounds from the AR reload, but it's effective DPS is utterly terrible, it tries to fill a niche in it's damage/speed that the Carnifex and Paladin both surpass it in, and it's total DPS against large enemies is awful.


In all but the longest range situations I'd rather have a claymore wielding soldier than a saber even. Or a turian with a hornet. The saber is simply an ineffective weapon,

[-Jaren-]

Ayeba wrote...

Since this seems like a good place to ask: How do you deal quickly with Banshees, short of a missile launcher? I mean, with any class? I consider Banshees the ultimate bunker buster. While it's not extremely dangerous on their own (fairly easy to avoid attacks), the fact that they force you out of cover makes you easy pickings for lesser enemies (Marauders in particular). Hints, please?

Reave followed up by a Throw or Warp makes short work of Brutes, Ravagers, and Banshees.  My friends and I completed a Gold Reaper run on White last night with 3 Drell and 1 Asari Adept.  Definitely the most fun I have had playing this game yet.

Basically any reaper (and any enemy frankly) gets decimated very quickly by biotic explosions.  But Shhhhhhh! everyone!  Bioware/EA will hear you....

[-Jaren-]

UK Wildcat wrote...

Due to popular demand, I have changed the relative rating of the Human Sentinel and updated the initial page with the following entry:

[/b]

[b]-Human Sentinel: Only has warp throw combo combined with tech armor.  No point in selecting a human sentinel over an asari adept, but still not horrible.  class moved to the middle of the pack.  Biotic explosions are good, but a lack of any CC makes this class inferior to others that can fill the same role with more useful abilities.

Human Sentinel isn't as bad as I initially rated it.  I rated it too low based on the fact that it is 100% inferior to asari adept, but it is still more useful than the others in the worst category, while not good enough to qualify for the best category in terms of GOLD CLEARING EFFICIENCY.

lol I told you this on page 3.  And biotic explosions are CC fyi.

Modifié par -Jaren-, 15 mars 2012 - 04:13 .

[UK Wildcat]

-Jaren- wrote...

Ayeba wrote...

Since this seems like a good place to ask: How do you deal quickly with Banshees, short of a missile launcher? I mean, with any class? I consider Banshees the ultimate bunker buster. While it's not extremely dangerous on their own (fairly easy to avoid attacks), the fact that they force you out of cover makes you easy pickings for lesser enemies (Marauders in particular). Hints, please?

Reave followed up by a Throw or Warp makes short work of Brutes, Ravagers, and Banshees.  My friends and I completed a Gold Reaper run on White last night with 3 Drell and 1 Asari Adept.  Definitely the most fun I have had playing this game yet.

Basically any reaper (and any enemy frankly) gets decimated very quickly by biotic explosions.  But Shhhhhhh! everyone!  Bioware/EA will hear you....

In controlled environments any class can appear to be great.  Drell adepts have good utility against reapers.  However, across all maps, and across all factions, when taken not as part of a team designed for biotic explosions, I believe they are appropriately rated on the list.

There are a lot of fun and effective team comps which are absolutely amazing which prove that the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts, but that's a different analysis honestly.

[UK Wildcat]

-Jaren- wrote...

UK Wildcat wrote...

Due to popular demand, I have changed the relative rating of the Human Sentinel and updated the initial page with the following entry:

[/b]

[b]-Human Sentinel: Only has warp throw combo combined with tech armor.  No point in selecting a human sentinel over an asari adept, but still not horrible.  class moved to the middle of the pack.  Biotic explosions are good, but a lack of any CC makes this class inferior to others that can fill the same role with more useful abilities.

Human Sentinel isn't as bad as I initially rated it.  I rated it too low based on the fact that it is 100% inferior to asari adept, but it is still more useful than the others in the worst category, while not good enough to qualify for the best category in terms of GOLD CLEARING EFFICIENCY.

lol I told you this on page 1.  And biotic explosions are CC fyi.

Biotic explosions are a decent CC/damage ability, but this is not instant crowd control, nor anywhere near as reliable as Stasis, and not technically an ability but rather an effect, and not as reliable as on command crowd control.  If this is CC in your mind, then so are things like the falcon chain stun, and any damage ability that causes a delay.

Jaren you may have said similar things before about the place on the list, but at the end of the day, whether this class is best average or worst, it won't change the clearing time this class brings individually, which simply won't be as effective in most situations as an Asari.

Modifié par UK Wildcat, 15 mars 2012 - 04:16 .

[-Jaren-]

UK Wildcat wrote...

-Jaren- wrote...

UK Wildcat wrote...

Due to popular demand, I have changed the relative rating of the Human Sentinel and updated the initial page with the following entry:

[/b]

[b]-Human Sentinel: Only has warp throw combo combined with tech armor.  No point in selecting a human sentinel over an asari adept, but still not horrible.  class moved to the middle of the pack.  Biotic explosions are good, but a lack of any CC makes this class inferior to others that can fill the same role with more useful abilities.

Human Sentinel isn't as bad as I initially rated it.  I rated it too low based on the fact that it is 100% inferior to asari adept, but it is still more useful than the others in the worst category, while not good enough to qualify for the best category in terms of GOLD CLEARING EFFICIENCY.

lol I told you this on page 1.  And biotic explosions are CC fyi.

Biotic explosions are decent CC.  Jaren you may have said similar things before about the place on the list, but at the end of the day, whether this class is best average or worst, it won't change the clearing time this class brings individually, which simply won't be as effective in most situations as an Asari.

So we are in essence talking about solo runs then?  I'm a little confused by your logic saying classes are "best" based on clear times and not overall functionality with a TEAM.

Oh and Reave is the best biotic ability in the game.  No question.  "How's that Stasis working out for you on that armor Ms. Asari?  Oh it's not?  Let me just pop a Reave on there then..."  As far as I'm concerned Asari for the most part are relegated to Warp/Throw detonate spammers on anything in Gold on any other enemy but Cerberus.

There are just better ways to do things.  And I think that's what you are talking about...?

[UK Wildcat]

-Jaren- wrote...

So we are in essence talking about solo runs then?  I'm a little confused by your logic saying classes are "best" based on clear times and not overall functionality with a TEAM.

Oh and Reave is the best biotic ability in the game.  No question.  "How's that Stasis working out for you on that armor Ms. Asari?  Oh it's not?  Let me just pop a Reave on there then..."  As far as I'm concerned Asari for the most part are relegated to Warp/Throw detonate spammers on anything in Gold on any other enemy but Cerberus.

There are just better ways to do things.  And I think that's what you are talking about...?

I've attempted to analyze the effectiveness of a class added to a team by generalizing across maps / possible team members / factions.

Reave is no doubt a great ability.  However, Drell don't bring enough survivability on Gold to increase their efficiency to best, and with pull being nearly useless, and cluster grenade being great but situational, there are too many factors that bring the Drell to a longer average clearing time.

One point I think people overlook is that certain class, particularly those in the middle of the list, can be much more effective in the hands of a great player.  That same player could be doing 20 min clears playing a Drell Adept, whereas a less skilled player could be playing a Quarian Infiltrator versus geth doing 35 min clears.

^ That, however, is not an effective way to reach general conclusions about efficiency accounting for the most amount of variables and player skill.  This list is an attempt to average efficiency.

[-Jaren-]

UK Wildcat wrote...

-Jaren- wrote...

So we are in essence talking about solo runs then?  I'm a little confused by your logic saying classes are "best" based on clear times and not overall functionality with a TEAM.

Oh and Reave is the best biotic ability in the game.  No question.  "How's that Stasis working out for you on that armor Ms. Asari?  Oh it's not?  Let me just pop a Reave on there then..."  As far as I'm concerned Asari for the most part are relegated to Warp/Throw detonate spammers on anything in Gold on any other enemy but Cerberus.

There are just better ways to do things.  And I think that's what you are talking about...?

I've attempted to analyze the effectiveness of a class added to a team by generalizing across maps / possible team members / factions.

Reave is no doubt a great ability.  However, Drell don't bring enough survivability on Gold to increase their efficiency to best, and with pull being nearly useless, and cluster grenade being great but situational, there are too many factors that bring the Drell to a longer average clearing time.

One point I think people overlook is that certain class, particularly those in the middle of the list, can be much more effective in the hands of a great player.  That same player could be doing 20 min clears playing a Drell Adept, whereas a less skilled player could be playing a Quarian Infiltrator versus geth doing 35 min clears.

^ That, however, is not an effective way to reach general conclusions about efficiency accounting for the most amount of variables and player skill.  This list is an attempt to average efficiency.

I think someone who regularly completes Gold runs could argue about a Drell's survivability.  Fastest character in the game, the most elusive, and Reave offers damage reduction.  And my freakin shields don't deplete when I "roll" out of harm's way...

[SuperADJ]

Human Sentinels are not "100% inferior" Asari Adepts. Not even against Cerberus. They only have 2 biotic powers to level, and as a result will be able to max both plus AT and put 5/6 points into fitness (depending if one uses a respec or not). This will usually give them greater passive bonuses to Health, Shields, Weapon Damage, Melee and Weight Capacity than the Asari Adept receives, UNLESS she neglects Stasis - which I have never personally seen as it is most AA's go-to power. If the AA neglects Warp or Throw then they are not able to perform anything as potent as the Warp-Throw combo of the Human Sentinel (where both powers are rank 6 and specced for synergy). Which, as has already been pointed out, IS CC.

I agree that the AA is better, but the difference isn't as clear cut as most people seem to believe - especially versus Reapers. Please also understand many people do not have the AA. In which case, the argument for a Human Sentinel on a team is quite a strong one.

[RSZambo]

Are Krogan Soldiers really that bad in gold runs? I have only played mine on silver and he's a beast on certain maps, specially on Firebase White.

I usually go near a crowd, throw one Inferno Grenade and let my enemies burn while I use Carnage and shoot them with my Geth Plasma Shotgun. If there's anything left after all that I will simply melee them to death, which will be much easier if there are enough left for me to get my rage on.

Is it THAT different on gold that it makes them useless?

[UK Wildcat]

RSZambo wrote...

Are Krogan Soldiers really that bad in gold runs? I have only played mine on silver and he's a beast on certain maps, specially on Firebase White.

I usually go near a crowd, throw one Inferno Grenade and let my enemies burn while I use Carnage and shoot them with my Geth Plasma Shotgun. If there's anything left after all that I will simply melee them to death, which will be much easier if there are enough left for me to get my rage on.

Is it THAT different on gold that it makes them useless?

They are a lot less effective on Gold.  Let's say you are farming credits and you want to clear as rapidly as you can.  I can't think of a scenario where you would choose a Krogan Soldier over any other class. 

Krogans don't survive as much as other classes despite their upgraded health/shields, they don't have useful abilities for damage that help the team clear more rapidly than any other class.

I love Krogans, I just don't believe time-wise they are efficient in multi-player.  You could play an extremely cautious and protracted approach while shotgun camping and still win a match, but that won't help you farm credits more rapidly.

[RSZambo]

UK Wildcat wrote...

RSZambo wrote...

Are Krogan Soldiers really that bad in gold runs? I have only played mine on silver and he's a beast on certain maps, specially on Firebase White.

I usually go near a crowd, throw one Inferno Grenade and let my enemies burn while I use Carnage and shoot them with my Geth Plasma Shotgun. If there's anything left after all that I will simply melee them to death, which will be much easier if there are enough left for me to get my rage on.

Is it THAT different on gold that it makes them useless?

They are a lot less effective on Gold.  Let's say you are farming credits and you want to clear as rapidly as you can.  I can't think of a scenario where you would choose a Krogan Soldier over any other class. 

Krogans don't survive as much as other classes despite their upgraded health/shields, they don't have useful abilities for damage that help the team clear more rapidly than any other class.

I love Krogans, I just don't believe time-wise they are efficient in multi-player.  You could play an extremely cautious and protracted approach while shotgun camping and still win a match, but that won't help you farm credits more rapidly.

I see your point, but I think saying they aren't efficient in multi-player is a bit too much. Most times I end up as the top scorer (not that it means anything game-wise) on any silver run on Firebase White, being able to clear mobs quite fast doing what I said on my previous post.

I'll admit I have never played them on gold though so I'll give you that they are probably not as efficient when it comes to farming credits compared to most classes. Too bad they are so much fun to play with that I always get bored when on my Asari Adept or my Infiltrator guy

[UK Wildcat]

Yep. I'd like them to be more efficient (efficiency is how fast you clear gold as a basic explanation of what I mean), but other classes clear gold more rapidly.

[Sereaph502]

Apologies if this has been pointed out before, and I'm not going to discredit your work. However, there are a few things people have to keep in mind with these efficiency lists.

-Is the person doing the list actually playing all these separate classes, giving personal experiences to the list, or is he crunching numbers in a spreadsheet all day?

-If they're actually playing each race/class combo, that opens up even more questions, such as: Are they playing optimally against the different enemy types? Surprise surprise, but playing against the geth is a lot different than playing against the reapers, for example.

-If he's playing optimally, does he have any biases against certain race/class combos from forum posts and the like? If so, that could alter the list. Is he naturally better at once class type than another? That can also alter the list, listing a class as worse than another because the person in question isn't as good at class A while he's best at class B.

-Is he getting into good teams for every race/class combination, or is he getting into a mixture of good/bad teams?  That also will alter the list, as a bad team can make you think that one class is useless when in it is not.

Of course, if the list is just all about looking at spreadsheets and crunching numbers, I personally have to take it with a grain of salt, because I've seen people crunch numbers all day and fill out spreadsheets and come to the conclusion that class X is underpowered or ability Y is useless to said class, when it actual gameplay experience class X is NOT underpowered and ability Y is actually vital to the class.

Modifié par Sereaph502, 15 mars 2012 - 05:25 .

[RamsenC]

Another bonus for Human Sentinel (and all humans) is the 20% weight reduction turns into 40% when you equip two weapons. So for example you can equip the Disciple for close range CC and damage along with a leveled phalanx/predator and remain very close to 200% cooldowns. Once you have more weapons at X you can have two serious weapons and still remain close to 200%.

This makes Human Sentinel the better dedicated Warp/Throw/Fitness class imo.

[UK Wildcat]

RamsenC wrote...

Another bonus for Human Sentinel (and all humans) is the 20% weight reduction turns into 40% when you equip two weapons. So for example you can equip the Disciple for close range CC and damage along with a leveled phalanx/predator and remain very close to 200% cooldowns. Once you have more weapons at X you can have two serious weapons and still remain close to 200%.

This makes Human Sentinel the better dedicated Warp/Throw/Fitness class imo.

Completely agree that weapon X balance and respec cards has potential to alter some of the positioning for clear times.

It may be the case at that point based on how I am tracking clear times it will become evident that Human Sentinel will get moved up on my list.

[UK Wildcat]

Sereaph502 wrote...

Apologies if this has been pointed out before, and I'm not going to discredit your work. However, there are a few things people have to keep in mind with these efficiency lists.

-Is the person doing the list actually playing all these separate classes, giving personal experiences to the list, or is he crunching numbers in a spreadsheet all day?

-If they're actually playing each race/class combo, that opens up even more questions, such as: Are they playing optimally against the different enemy types? Surprise surprise, but playing against the geth is a lot different than playing against the reapers, for example.

-If he's playing optimally, does he have any biases against certain race/class combos from forum posts and the like? If so, that could alter the list. Is he naturally better at once class type than another? That can also alter the list, listing a class as worse than another because the person in question isn't as good at class A while he's best at class B.

-Is he getting into good teams for every race/class combination, or is he getting into a mixture of good/bad teams?  That also will alter the list, as a bad team can make you think that one class is useless when in it is not.

Of course, if the list is just all about looking at spreadsheets and crunching numbers, I personally have to take it with a grain of salt, because I've seen people crunch numbers all day and fill out spreadsheets and come to the conclusion that class X is underpowered or ability Y is useless to said class, when it actual gameplay experience class X is NOT underpowered and ability Y is actually vital to the class.

I actually appreciate your constructive criticism/questions as they add to the dialogue in a great way. 

1) I am, in fact, playing every class on the list, using respec cards to test new things, chain promoting to unlock different talent allocation paths and I am in no way using a spreadsheet (only things I track at times are party composition / clear times / consumable usage, but that doesn't particularly sway me one way or the other).

2) I'm playing 'optimally' if that can be agreed upon as to what constitutes optimally, I'm playing sub-optimally, and I'm playing builds that have efficacy against all 3 factions but are not tailored to one specific faction.

3) It is impossible to eliminate biases in subjective ranking systems.  To protect against things of that nature, I've asked others to post rapid clear times, have tested all of the builds that people suggest deserve another look or where they've stated I'm flat out wrong, I remain willing to group with anyone who wants to test clearing times (My Origin is in my signature, I've posted in the gold clearing time thread), and I've altered rankings back and forth based on testing and insight from others (originally I had sentinel, engineer humans mid-level but moved them down, and later re-altered the order).

4) I am not, yet, tailoring this list to specific team class compositions for pre-made groups, although I can do that.  My list is based on experiences in part on quickmatching randomly, and playing with average players in a group consisting of 2-4 of us, and playing with excellent players in a group consisting of 2-4 of us.

Thank you for asking these questions.

[spirosz]

Krogan Soldier... bad?

Sir, have you seen four Krogans in action, on gold? It's carnage I tell you, carnage... no pun.

[mysticforce42]

HaesoME3 wrote...

mysticforce42 wrote...

HaesoME3 wrote...

mysticforce42 wrote...

HaesoME3 wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

The DPS figures listed on that spreadsheet are wrong.

Regardless of how accurate or inaccurate the listed DPS is - the ROF and raw damage is accurate - the Saber is a terrible weapon.

DPS on that spreadsheet is inaccurate and rounds per clip is inaccurate for some weapons as well. 

I wasn't terribly impressed with the Sabre when I first got it, but wait until it levels a bit and use it with Marksman - 8 shots means you don't waste time reloading, which improves overall RoF over each reload.  Use it with AR and take down a shielded mob on Gold with 4 shots to the Black Widow's 3...and you still have another 4 shots before you have to reload.  In general, higher clip gives you more flexibility and advantage over shield mechanics on Gold.

It's easier to think of it as a sniper rifle with high clip and high RoF (for sniper rifles), or a Canifax with higher clip, higher damage but slower RoF.

The only inaccuracies stem from it being datamined and not updated since demo.

Except it's significantly worse than the carnifex and paladin. It fires slower, is only marginally more accurate, and has comparable damage. All for weighing about 100% recharge more.

Though it's becoming outdated with mp adjustments, it's still overall a good representation - I can go ahead and datamine the RoF and damage/hit if you like and show you quite plainly it's a terrible weapon.

If you're using the black widow with AR and taking three shots to kill something you're doing something horribly wrong. Not to mention with a soldier you can reload using AR and reload-cancel with grenades... Reload times are almost entirely inconsequential.  Not to mention even further the Falcon weighs the same as a saber, has marginally less damage, fires much faster, has only two less rounds to a clip - but is AoE and only a silver or gold weapon, not an N7 weapon.

The saber is a terrible weapon compared to alternatives, the paladin/carnifex both make better snipers for less weight, especially with soldiers or any class that can grenade reload. The falcon makes a better basically everything but headshot sniper.

I agree that the spreadsheet is generally a good guide, but I think you are missing the forrest for the trees.

Damage and RoF are good indicators when comparing weapons when looking purely at DPS, which is an accurate measure if we ignore shield mechanics in Gold.  The fact that a single point of shield/barrier will absorb all damage from one shot makes weapons with higher clips more efficient.  If you can manage to kill, say, a Phantom with 2 shots on a Black Widow with AR then please share your secret, because I don't see how you can get past the shields with less than 2 shots.  Remember, we are talking Soldiers here, not Infiltrators so there's no ED to fall back on.

I don't think anyone's going to argue that the Falcon is by far the best assult rifle - and probably one of the best weapons in general right now.  My original post was addressed to a poster who believed Soldiers would be useless when the Falcon gets nerfed, so I was presenting the Sabre as another example of a weapon that synergizes with Soldiers very well.

Reload times can be cut with the reload trick - but it is still a break in damage, and potentially leaving a priority enemy alive and letting those pesky close-combat variants get closer to you.  How many times have you had to reload when your target would be dead with another shot when running around witha  Carni or Paladin? I know it certainly happens to me quite a bit.  This is when 8 rounds work better than 6 (or fewer).

Yeah, it's heavy.  Yeah, it'll take forever to level.  Arguing about Sabre vs Carni vs Paladin is like arguing about Mantix vs Widow vs Black Widow - they all can work and each has their strengths and weaknesses based on situation.

I'd take a X Carn/paladin over X Saber any day of the week, the speed at which you rank it up is not the reason - the reason is it's worse, it just also happens to be N7 and rank up slowly to put salt in the wound.

You talk about the magazine size, lets talk reload time. 1.5 vs 2.9. Both can be cut in around half with the various reload tricks, saber benefits slightly more than the carnifex and double the paladin from AR reload but almost half for grenade reload. You'll be reloading manually more often than AR reloading if constantly firing. Plus a faster RoF. I can put out more rounds with a paladin than you can with a saber in the same period, each dealing more damage. Or a carnifex for slightly less damage and even higher effective RoF.

The paladin between reload speed and fire rate will put out around as many bullets - All while weighing 90% less and dealing the same damage. 


I don't recall if a headshot with a BW removes all of a phantom's barrier, I know a regular widow does, I also don't have BW X to tell if it does then. It doesn't really matter - play with a team and let someone stasis for you or overload for you, or simply pick a target that's better suited to your weapon. You don't pick off random assault troopers in the back when there's an atlas on top of the group, do you? Priorities. I'd still rather three shot the phantom with a BW and reload, then put over double the DPS of a saber into say an atlas, or get an assault trooper multi-kill, or put down a brute with a few shots -> adrenaline rush -> a few shots without reloading. The saber might get more rounds from the AR reload, but it's effective DPS is utterly terrible, it tries to fill a niche in it's damage/speed that the Carnifex and Paladin both surpass it in, and it's total DPS against large enemies is awful.


In all but the longest range situations I'd rather have a claymore wielding soldier than a saber even. Or a turian with a hornet. The saber is simply an ineffective weapon,

It's certainly your perogative to use whatever weapon you feel best suite your needs. 

You are still quoting the DPS numbers from that spreadsheet which is clearly wrong in the case of the Sabre unless I am missing something (which is quite possible).

Take a look at the Average Damage per shot on the Sabre, Carnifax, and Paladin on the spreadsheet.  Then, take a look at the Rate of Fire...and then finally take a look at the listed DPS.  Notice something very, very odd?

Sabre: Avg. Dmg. per shot = 393.85.  Rate of fire = 80.  DPS as listed on the spreadsheet = 235
Carnifax: Avg. Dmg. per shot = 310.6.  Rate of fire = 100.  DPS as listed on the spreadsheet = 406
Paladin: Avg. Dmg per shot = 394.8.  Rate of fire= 100.  DPS as listed on the spreadsheet = 450

Would you care to explain how the Carnifax compared with the Sabre, with it's 79% dmage per shot at 125% RoF, manages to have 173% the DPS?  While I don't know what the RoF figure stands for (it would make sense to be the number of shots per minute), but that DPS figure is obviously completely wrong.

If the RoF is indeed the number of shots per minute, then we get 525.1 DPS for the Sabre, 517.7 DPS for the Carnifax, and 658 for the Paladin.  At that point it becomes a matter of choice in terms of weight and clip size.