220 réponses à ce sujet

[Gemini1179]

Meshaber wrote...

The massive explosion in Arrival is the result of all the energy dormant in the Alpha relay being released as the structure holding it together collapses. That energy is being directed through the relay network in the ME3 ending.

As for the visuals that we can see from across the galaxy:

1: They change colour according to the ending you chose, they are not the same explosion as the one in arrival (or larger). They are control/synthesis/destruction (of synthetics) explosions, or so I would assume (yes, that sounds ridiculous, but you get the point).

2: The explosions visual on the galaxy map (or whatever) are MASSIVE. If these were indeed of a similar nature to the one in arrival, there is no way in hell the normandy would survive and land on some planet, because there would be nothing left to land on. The conclusion that those explosions are the same as the one in arrival is demonstrably false.

The Normandy bit makes no sense any way you slice it. Please explain how and why Joker had the Normandy through a relay before Shepard activated the Crucible.

Again, you're inferring 'how' the energy transfer through the relay works and what kinds of explosions are the result based on color-coded visual cues.

[The Rezonator]

You have missed the point. The ending in 2 could have been happy or sad (i.e. which team members survived), and you would have understood why they did or didnt.

The problem is that you could do absolutely everything wrong, kill everybody, sabotage everything, and still be presented with these decisions. Deus Ex HR had the same thing. In one of the endings, the character said something along the lines of "I've tried to use my abilities for good, havent I?". And thinking about how i played that game, I stole things, I killed people, I extorted people, I knocked out or killed civilians because they were annoying, how the hell can that be interpreted as "doing good"?

Same thing here. I sacrificed Mordin so that the Krogan would be cured of the Genophage. Not that it mattered in the end because either everyone becomes a hybrid, (and the relays are destroyed), or the relays are destroyed anyway and galactic civilisation crumbles, and Shepard isnt even around to see what the Krogan do sans genophage.

I barely even feel like replaying to save Mordin, for the same reasons, at the end of the day galactic civilisation is still screwed.

The endings in and of themselves are not bad. But in relation to ME, they are pathetic. You fought for three or four years to 'save the galaxy', only to hamstring everyone living in it. Especially post-war, dozens or hundreds or worlds and outposts will die from lack of external resources, so what have you saved exactly?

In Deus Ex, I didnt care (especially as a stand alone game with only 1 really interesting and invest-worthy character). I made choices to make money, buy new upgrades and play the game a bit differently, trying things to challenge myself, not because the game was challenging, then end with a button press and switch to a new game.

In ME, i actually replayed the first 2 games from scratch leading up to the release of ME3 to ensure i made the decisions i thought would result the best (i.e. most interesting) in the last game. At the end of the game, it was an absolute waste of time.

And that is what people are upset about.

[Tequila Man]

DirectorStormchaser1 wrote...

Tequila Man wrote...

HOW MANY TIMES....

WHY....

STRENGTH! Give me STRENGTH....


YOU... YOU.... NERFHERDER.


We don't want Cindarella endings. WE WANT ONES THAT MAKE SENSE AND RESPECT US AS CUSTOMERS AND ADULTS.

It did make sense it was final Indoctrination.

Here since you are an obviously drunk from Tequila.

Proof the ending is Indoctrination.

Let us start with Mass Effect 1. EDEN PRIME. "When the ship landed it emitted some type of signal that bore into my head". That was the start of Indoctrination on Shepherd.

Mass Effect 1 Virmire. Again the signal was emitting when Saren fled from battle. Shepherd again being close to signals which caused indoctrination.

Mass Effect 2: The implants Reaper Tech.

Mass Effect 2: Arrival locked in a Reaper artifact room which bore into Shepherd's head the Reaper fleet coming.

Mass Effect 2: Collector Base with human Reaper attacking Shepherd. More and more Shepherd will somehow be affected by Indoctrination.

Mass Effect 3: The attack Shepherd knew they were already at Earth.

And, all the encounters with Reapers and Reaper Tech would have been too much for Shepherd to handle why he had those "dreams".

Which brings this up.

After being hit by Harbinger's laser, look behind you. There are 3 trees from the dream which were not there running down the hill.

Going through Conduit with no vehicle. Need protection from vehicle armor to go through Conduit. Please refer to Mass Effect 1. Mass Effect 1 you run through Conduit on Ilum, you die.

Illusive Man has gun just appear in his hand. All NPCs has visible weapons where they were if they were being used. Illusive Man is a dream.

And, best of all when he meets Catalyst. "I am the one that Controls the Reapers". In reality Harbinger "Controls the Reapers".

What does Legion say in the Geth Playform interface "I appear as a pleasant form to your eyes".

Shepherd saw that Catalyst was Harbinger he would not be so eager to be indoctrinated.

Psychology 101: Dreams are in reverse of reality. The colors would be reverse. Destroying Repears, Paragon which makes Shepherd not become indoctrinated. Controlling Reapers, Renegade which makes Shepherd become indoctrinated. Third choice is what Saren probably chose when becoming indoctrinated.

The crash on Normandy on a strange world is a dream. Having Shepherd think they are safe when in reality probably crashing onto Earth with 2 real endings, crew surviving or dying.

And, lastly. The part Catalyst was on was not protected by a dome and Shepherd is somehow surviving in the vacuum of space with no helmet and a destroyed environmental suit.

Which brings to the last scene. The camera goes up a small hill exactly like where they fought Harbinger and see Shepherd take a breath of air. Meaning he decided to destroy the Reapers which made Shepherd not become indoctrinated. While the other 2 leads to indoctrination.

Sorry to argue like a troll, but...

All that? Fanfiction. You've created a universe/world/excuse that simply doesn't exist on any intellectual level aside from "maybe."

Modifié par Tequila Man, 14 mars 2012 - 05:37 .

[xeNNN]

Jarlaxlecq wrote...

loved it! like a kick to the balls.....

your avatar implies you dont have balls to be kicked

[GodChildInTheMachine]

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...

healed1337 wrote...

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...

But you would literally have to be brain dead to accept the ME3 ending for its (lack of) complexity and narrative logic.

Uh, being literally brain dead would mean that your brain doesn't function at all. It means that you can't even comprehend the difference between red and blue even if your eyes can sense the difference.

Don't get me wrong, the ending does have problems, but I appreciate the concept behind it and haven't seen many complaints that can't be defended against.

I can see how one would appreciate the concept behind the ending, and I could too if they were delivered in a different context.

But there really isn't a solid defense for the ending on a critical level.

Just to define the terms by which I am judging the ending, here is a quote from Aristotle's Poetics:

In the characters too, exactly as in the structure of the incidents, [the poet] ought always to seek what is either necessary or probable, so that it is either necessary or probable that a person of such-and-such a sort say or do things of the same sort, and it is either necessary or probable that this [incident] happen after that one. It is obvious that the solutions of plots too should come about as a result of the plot itself, and not from a contrivance... A contrivance must be used for matters outside the drama—either previous events which are beyond human knowledge, or later ones that need to be foretold or announced... There should be nothing improbable in the incidents; otherwise, it should be outside the tragedy...

Emphasis placed on the part which I think has the most bearing to my argument.

I do not mind that the ending attempted to be profound or "tragic" if you can define it that way. I often enjoy fiction that tries to communicate complex messages, but it is very easy for such an attempt to fail if it disregards the internal consistency of the narrative in favor of some grander artistic statement.

The reason the ending is poor is because it does not rise naturally out of the threads that lead to it, nor does it conclude them that way.

It introduces a new character, who by the logic of the narrative is the prime antagonist, without any ceremony or explanation. Instead of showing through the events of the narrative who this character is and what its motivations are, it has to explain them itself through expositionary dialogue. That kind of exposition needs to be done earlier in the story and is almost universally avoided in the final act.

This mysterious antagonist then issues a new understanding of the fictional world which runs counter to what has been naturally revealed to the audience by the events of the preceding story. To this end it applies logic which can demonstrably be proven false and thoughtless.

(i.e. I heard you didn't want to be killed by synthetics, so I created synthetics to kill you every 50k years so you don't have to be killed by synthetics)

The tone and theme of its message directly contraverts the themes explored in the Mass Effect series, the most of which in my eyes are the ideas of free will, unity, tolerance and what it means to be alive or sentient. It goes so far as to tell you in no uncertain terms that what you have accomplished and the things you have seen (i.e. the peace of the Geth and Quarians and the friendship of EDI) is in fact false or meaningless. (You could honestly make the arguement that this thing is an illogical little space Hitler)

And of course, the protagonist turns from an uncomprimising type of person who will do things by his/her terms or not at all, into a complacent and unscrupulous sucker who does not even question what he is being told when it has the highest consequences ever.

How would you reply to that in defense of the ending?

[DirectorStormchaser1]

Tequila Man wrote..

Sorry to argue like a troll, but...

All that? Fanfiction. You've created a universe/world/excuse that simply doesn't exist on any intellectual level aside from "maybe."

Nope those are from all 3 games.  If you paid attention and got off the Tequila.  Bioware did it right. 

[GodChildInTheMachine]

Why does it do that when I edit? Is there any way to delete double posts?

[Meshaber]

Gemini1179 wrote...

The Normandy bit makes no sense any way you slice it. Please explain how and why Joker had the Normandy through a relay before Shepard activated the Crucible.

Again, you're inferring 'how' the energy transfer through the relay works and what kinds of explosions are the result based on color-coded visual cues.

No, the normandy bit doesn't make sense, but it directly contradicts the idea that the Mass relays destroyed everything. So they didn't. And since the method by which they are destroyed are completely different from each other, we can conclude that this is the explanation.

[MaverickPerry]

skaye wrote...

I absolutely adored the ending to this game.

Each option gave a sense of finality, a real commitment to the science fiction that underpins the series: that the galaxy is locked in a cycle where organics and synthetics contend for supremacy. And this game lets me completely rewrite the future of that universe. 

The option I chose for my 'primary' playthrough (spoiler!) was the synergy (middle) route. Haunting, shaking, and with that great kicker after the credits.

What did people want? What were people expecting? A kind of "and then Shepard killed the reapers and everyone was okay and there was another sex scene with Liara rainbows butterflies medals Chewbacca roar end credits" sort of thing?

What we get here is far better - an opportunity to have a powerful impact on the universe, and to make a kind of concluding judgement about the series' principle themes.

I don't accept some of the arguments floating around, that the final choices didn't reflect the series' 'paragon/renegade' duality. We got given some very complex options, with massive iceburgs of unforeseen consequences in each one. What, did people want a drop-down menu, listing the effects?

I loved this series, but its not until these endings that Mass Effect is elevated to the status of powerful science fiction. I for one would be very upset if Bioware changed them even a jot. They're beautiful just as they are.

Anyway, this thread is just to congratulate Bioware - I've been following you guys since Baldur's Gate, and I can't wait to see what happens next - and to see if anybody else has a more positive response to the endings.

Congratulations. You just missed the entire point of why the ending (singular, not plural, stop lying to yourself) sucked. For the thousandth time, it's not the tone of the ending that 99% of us have a problem with. It's 1.) our choices over the last six years meant dicks, and 2.) the ending can't even stand on it's own merits. It's full of plot holes, illogical and impossible scenes, and doesn't resolve anything because it was intentionally made to be vague and convoluted.

[Meltemph]

Sparkky wrote...

When will people realize that everyone is not upset about it not being a happier ending... They are upset about the ending not reflecting any of their choices over the 3 games.

You forgot about the fact that the ending makes no-literary sense, when compared to the rest of the game and this time when people say plot holes, THEY ACTUALLY MEAN, plot holes..

[x-Killision-X]

To the OP

 I'm glad you liked them. I'm envious. I would like these ending if A) The plotholes were fixed and they were a choice among others. And again. . . envious that you found closure.

[jules_vern18]

Quite a few people didn't mind Jar Jar Binks either, if I recall.

[Tequila Man]

DirectorStormchaser1 wrote...

Tequila Man wrote..

Sorry to argue like a troll, but...

All that? Fanfiction. You've created a universe/world/excuse that simply doesn't exist on any intellectual level aside from "maybe."

Nope those are from all 3 games.  If you paid attention and got off the Tequila.  Bioware did it right. 

*facepalm*

Okay. Fair enough, I guess. Fanfiction it is.

Hey, everyone. Shepard was indoctrinated. A non-canon idea says so.


If it's any consolation, man, I wish your ending was the one Bioware went with. But, alas, they didn't.

Modifié par Tequila Man, 14 mars 2012 - 05:46 .

[AtreiyaN7]

shadey wrote...

prepare for a heap of people calling you a troll

I liked it, though alot of people can't accept the fact other people were satisfied with the way it ended

Mmm, yes, I wouldn't be surprised if that happened. I too liked the ending for my Shepard, but those of us who are actually okay with the endings are in the minority.

[SignorMagnifico]

Maj.Pain007 wrote...

This guy is the 1%

This ^

[Meshaber]

DirectorStormchaser1 wrote...

Tequila Man wrote..

Sorry to argue like a troll, but...

All that? Fanfiction. You've created a universe/world/excuse that simply doesn't exist on any intellectual level aside from "maybe."

Nope those are from all 3 games.  If you paid attention and got off the Tequila.  Bioware did it right. 

The total time period Shepard spends close to indoctrination devices is pretty low, especially since half of those examples we have no idea if they actually would have any effect (we don't know the range for example, or if proto reapers can indoctrinate). Also, TIM took the gun from Andersson, that was pretty clear to me.

[Soaringeagle78]

Shqkw62849277hsnwlqpocyeb6382 Sorry, I just threw up a little from the complete shock as to the blasphemy that I just read.

[ed87]

There will always be someone out there that liked it and expected less than most of us.

However, the widespread disappointment from fans will be too great to ignore in the end

[Gemini1179]

Meshaber wrote...

Gemini1179 wrote...

The Normandy bit makes no sense any way you slice it. Please explain how and why Joker had the Normandy through a relay before Shepard activated the Crucible.

Again, you're inferring 'how' the energy transfer through the relay works and what kinds of explosions are the result based on color-coded visual cues.

No, the normandy bit doesn't make sense, but it directly contradicts the idea that the Mass relays destroyed everything. So they didn't. And since the method by which they are destroyed are completely different from each other, we can conclude that this is the explanation.

We could argue this ad infinitem. If the Normandy scene makes no sense, how can you use it as justification for anything? Honestly, it's not even that important. The endings still are terrible and left me asking myself "Why would I play this again? Why would I buy DLC? None of it matters." I LOVED the game up until that final moment. I don't know how to play it again knowing that I'm not achieving anything in the end.

[ed87]

jules_vern18 wrote...

Quite a few people didn't mind Jar Jar Binks either, if I recall.

Funilly enough, i was one of them

[DirectorStormchaser1]

Meshaber wrote...

No, the normandy bit doesn't make sense, but it directly contradicts the idea that the Mass relays destroyed everything. So they didn't. And since the method by which they are destroyed are completely different from each other, we can conclude that this is the explanation.

The Relays were not destroyed.  When a prisoner is brainwashed in real lfie.  They will have dreams within dreams.  Abnormakl Psychology teaches you this. 

So when Shepherd went for whatever choice, Shepherd makes would be a dream of where his crew and squad mates are safe. 

In reality the Relays are not destroyed and war wages on. 

As Bioware stated the Trilogy is "Shepherd's Story"  big hint Shepherd was not going to be in the whole Mass Effect Series.

Shepherd would be the one that warned paving way for another Legend.  Since it is obvious from Epilogue that Shepherd Story was the one that is known best.

I cannot wait for Mass Effect 4.   Bioware left a clue what Mass effect 4 would be.  "The best tactic against the Reapers is hit and run."  So to make Mass Effect 4 best game possible, Bioware, please hire Chris Roberts to make this series even better than Freelancer.  Give the fans what we wanted in Mass Effect 1.  Space Combat.

[SirCrimz]

I'm not entirely sure anyone could like an ending that doesn't make sense (not even symbolically).

[noobcannon]

skaye wrote...

I absolutely adored the ending to this game.

Each option gave a sense of finality, a real commitment to the science fiction that underpins the series: that the galaxy is locked in a cycle where organics and synthetics contend for supremacy. And this game lets me completely rewrite the future of that universe. 

The option I chose for my 'primary' playthrough (spoiler!) was the synergy (middle) route. Haunting, shaking, and with that great kicker after the credits.

What did people want? What were people expecting? A kind of "and then Shepard killed the reapers and everyone was okay and there was another sex scene with Liara rainbows butterflies medals Chewbacca roar end credits" sort of thing?

What we get here is far better - an opportunity to have a powerful impact on the universe, and to make a kind of concluding judgement about the series' principle themes.

I don't accept some of the arguments floating around, that the final choices didn't reflect the series' 'paragon/renegade' duality. We got given some very complex options, with massive iceburgs of unforeseen consequences in each one. What, did people want a drop-down menu, listing the effects?

I loved this series, but its not until these endings that Mass Effect is elevated to the status of powerful science fiction. I for one would be very upset if Bioware changed them even a jot. They're beautiful just as they are.

Anyway, this thread is just to congratulate Bioware - I've been following you guys since Baldur's Gate, and I can't wait to see what happens next - and to see if anybody else has a more positive response to the endings.

no

[GodChildInTheMachine]

ed87 wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

Quite a few people didn't mind Jar Jar Binks either, if I recall.

Funilly enough, i was one of them

Meesa thinks tha ending is greeeeaaaaaat!

[The Real Bowser]

I think the ending was 'okay'. I don't think the ending was great, or even good. I expect a lot more from Bioware than this half-assed, extremely short, confusing ending.

I don't want a perfectly happy ending. I just want one that makes sense, and is long and thorough. Shepard surviving to enjoy and see what he has accomplished would be nice but just being able to see the consequences of our actions would have been nice.

I mean seriously. All the fleets from every planet are stranded on earth. Even with FTL travel, they are still stranded. Why did Joker run from the battle? Man I have more questions from the ending than I ever had answered in this game. I am not at all content with the ending.

If Bioware respects us at all, they will listen to us and give us a better ending. I would have rather had the ending be Shepard being zapped by Harbinger's laser and saying "Critical Mission Failure" than this.  Bioware could have done better, Bioware SHOULD have done better.  It remains to be seen if they'll do anything to amend this massive slight to our community.

Modifié par The Real Bowser, 14 mars 2012 - 05:51 .