275 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

here’s so much throwaway entertainment out there. I didn’t just want to make something that was essentially the videogame version of a popcorn movie. I wanted to make something huge and exciting and the biggest thing possible that felt like a blockbuster and had that big action science fiction feel.

Bwahahahhahaaa.... Oy Casey, but you did. Oh, how much you did.

[Farbautisonn]

-Its bull****e. Pure and simple.

Even if its corporate hot air, its still taking the mickey on the fans who spent hard cash and waited for so long for this.

Most polls have ME3 with 75-95% of the clientbase being dissatisfied with the product, despite the fact that the declared goal of Bioware was to leave us satisfied (see sig and look around). Amazon product reviews and prices have dropped "like they were in a high gravety envirionment". Fans are organizing and actively lobbying for alternate endings/an epilogue/ anything better than what we have. Complaints reach from buggy software, gameplay inconsistences, lore and logic inconsistencies, writing inconsistencies, character and dialogue issue etc. Infact the only part of the game that hasnt been subjected to intense critizism is the voiceover and the musical score. People are threatening boycot, have cancelled TOR subcriptions and are using social mediea to lobby against the product.

Casey hasnt got a clue what "polerized" means. Its not polerized when a vast majority of your client base isnt satisfied with the product you deliver.

This is a public relations nightmare. And we have "comical casey" stating that all is good and that Bioware had this planned all along. Its striking how out of touch with his client base and indeed relality this interview makes him appear to be. And the only thing this interview will do is further drive the fanbase away from him and his company.

I dont know who is in charge of public relations at Bio/Ea... but they need to brush up on their skills.

[CaptainRegor]

Well, he does have good point!

[Dansayshi]

What a useless interview.

The ending sucked, no matter how you attempt to dress it up with PR.

[cabbagered]

BioWare reminds me of George W Bush when there was increasing concern that he was being shielded from public opinion to such a degree that he had no idea what was going on in his own country. BioWare just seems so dazed and out of touch that I don't know what to make of it.

[Coreniro]

stop using the word "fiasco" like that. It's irritating

[Arcanus5]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Most polls have ME3 with 75-95% of the clientbase being dissatisfied with the product, despite the fact that the declared goal of Bioware was to leave us satisfied (see sig and look around). Amazon product reviews and prices have dropped "like they were in a high gravety envirionment". Fans are organizing and actively lobbying for alternate endings/an epilogue/ anything better than what we have.

Not that I don´t appreciate devoted fans of a series and their passion for a product. But I always have a problem when people actually believe that those internet polls, product reviews or forum threads are representative of the general opinion of a product or represent the "clientbase" of the product.
For that to work you have to assume that the majority of people playing the game actually visit these forums and gamesites. They don´t. There are statistics (please don´t kill me because I can´t provide the internet link!) stating that, regarding blockbuster games, a maximum 4-5% of the people buying and playing these games are using forums, costumer reviews, polls, petitions etc. to voice their opinion.
A lot of my friends are playing Mass Effect 3 right now. They didn´t join any forums, they didn´t read every bit of news about the game. They didn´t know about any Day1 DLC controversy, simply because they aren´t interested or don´t have the time. They just bought the game because they liked ME1+2. And if they don´t like the ending they hope the next game will be better and buy it anyway. That´s the audience a company wants to appeal to. And sadly, they are the majority of people playing this game. So, even if there are 40.000 people participating on a poll or a few hundred people complaining in this forum...we are talking about a game that will easily sell more than a million copies...so what seems like a united front against the Mass Effect 3 ending, actually isn´t, because 95% of the costumers don´t participate in these discussions, so we don´t actually know if the majority of the people did not like the ending...

I work in marketing myself, so I know from experience that the core audience or hardcore fanbase of a product is generally not the target audience, because they will buy the product anyway, even if they think it´s flawed. Just throw em a few bones and gimmicks, so that they have something to discuss in their forums. And the problem of a core audience/fanbase is: "The more you give ´em, the more they think they are entilted to get..." :-)
My guess is, they will give us a few DLCs with an epilogue and some hints regarding a sequel/prequel of some sort and that´s it.

I don´t wanna defend the ending, although I liked the fact that my Sheppard died (but I´m also the one always thinking the LOTR ending would be better with Frodo dying in Mordor or one of the SW heroes dying in episode VI), I just think some people need to gain some perspective. And suing Bioware for false advertisement, like I read in another thread?!? That´s like suing McDonalds because my cheeseburger did not look like the one in the picture...[and it never does :-)]

Modifié par Arcanus5, 14 mars 2012 - 11:05 .

[Farbautisonn]

Arcanus5 wrote...
Not that I don´t appreciate devoted fans of a series and their passion for a product. But I always have a problem when people actually believe that those internet polls, product reviews or forum threads are representative of the general opinion of a product or represent the "clientbase" of the product.
For that to work you have to assume that the majority of people playing the game actually visit these forums and gamesites. They don´t. There are statistics (please don´t kill me because I can´t provide the internet link!) stating that, regarding blockbuster games, a maximum 4-5% of the people buying and playing these games are using forums, costumer reviews, polls, petitions etc. to voice their opinion.

-Not gonna kill you.
Well. In statistics for elections in my nation of 5 million you can claim a reasonable accuracy with a poll base of about 1k individuals. I believe presidential polls in the US is below the 10k mark. 40k people threw a vote. Lets for the sake of fairness, buggyness and to be on the safe side that 10k of those votes can be discarded. Thats still 30k votes You work marketing. 30k people polled is a massive undertaking and is usually considered way overkill to rate a product. I have a formal background in Pol sci (european) and polling and statistics was a part of my education. You can voice alot of reasons why  the polls arent accurate but still the number is staggering.

A lot of my friends are playing Mass Effect 3 right now. They didn´t join any forums, they didn´t read every bit news about the game. They didn´t know about any Day1 DLC controversy, simply because they aren´t interested or don´t have the time. They just bought the game because they liked ME1+2. And if they don´t like the ending they hope the next game will be better and buy it anyway. That´s the audience a company wants to appeal to. And sadly, they are the majority of people playing this game. So, even if there are 40.000 people participating on a poll or a few hundred people complaining in this forum...we are talking about a game that will easily sell more than a million copies...so what seems like a united front against the Mass Effect 3 ending, actually isn´t, because 95% of the costumers don´t participate in these discussions, so we don´t actually know if the majority of the people did not like the ending...

-Youre right. Most consumers for this game will be the mainstream crowd. The "pew pew mp" crowd who buy several games a year and who are every game studios wet dream because they empower you with a high fiscal turnover. However they too read reviews when they shop at Amazon or other places. They too do look up information and if they come to these boards, the fanbase boards, the impression will not be very favorable. Thats one thing.

Another is that whilst they buy many games, they are fickle. Their loyalty to the product or studio is ziltch. They play it and wait for the next glitzy title. If the game in anyway makes them bored or makes them feel unhappy, they turn it in or leave it to collect dust. Thats ok if you have an EA sports title. But if you do not churn out a new product once or twice a year then you cant collect. And whilst bioware has cut considerable in its dev time it cannot compete. And EA needs a title a year minium from Bioware, or it will get scrapped. So. Bio has to cut corners. That will not appease the loyal fanbase, but the average casual gamer wont care anyway.

I work in marketing myself, so I know from experience that the core audience or hardcore fanbase of a product is generally not the target audience, because they will buy the product anyway, even if they think it´s flawed. Just throw em a few bones and gimmicks, so that they have something to discuss in their forums. And the problem of a core audience/fanbase is: "The more you give ´em, the more they think they are entilted to get..." :-)
My guess is, they will give us a few DLCs with an epilogue and some hints regarding a new sequel of some sort and that´s it.

-Sure. Its the same as in politics. You reach for the middle (or which side you need to cater to) whilst trying to appease your own target group so they are satisfied. However if your core electorate base feels dissatisfied with you or feel that you have spread yourself too thin (flip-flopping) then we have what is currently a republican candidates very serious problem. Then the client base goes shopping elsewhere.

I dont really like the word "entitlement" here. Because I do not think it fits. A company that survives long enough producing a single type of product or service usually gains a following, a loyal fan base, based on that repuation. The client base expects that this reputation is honored. That the clients sometimes presumes too much is another thing, but thats YOUR (as it was mine) job to explain to them. That was not done in this case. In fact it wasnt even attempted. Communication/branding of the product and service is in sometimes alot more important than the product or service itself.

I think they will give us DLC... but with a focus on the "new" target group (MP/pew pew crowd)  and the "sim-skins" that EA do so very successfully push. An "ending tweak" will have to be made from scratch and whilst it usually wouldnt be that big of a deal, this one has to be somewhat impressive to win back the formerly loyalists. It has to be at least a proper dlc or even an expansion. And it has to be communicated just right how and why they do it. That takes time. A public relations push can take weeks, months to prepare, as can the programming and writing. The timeframe for an ending dlc /tweak is 2months plus (as I see it). Thats one hell of alot of time in public relations to be living with snowballing critizism. So in all earnesty based on their current performance I dont think we will get one for a long time... if at all. Instead they might decide to pour everything into DA3 to try to win back what was lost.

I don´t wanna defend the ending, although I liked the fact that my Sheppard died (but I´m also the one always thinking the LOTR ending would be better with Frodo dying in Mordor or one of the SW heroes dying in episode VI), I just think some people need to gain some perspective. And sueing Bioware?!? That´s like suing McDonlads because my cheeseburger did not look like the one on the picture...[and it never does :-)]

-I like tragic endings myself. I wont mind Shep dying. But he has to die for something. If he dies for nothing and there is no narrative extrapolation on the effects that his sacrifice has, then the client will find that his "sacrifice" was in vain, and indeed that his entire effort throughout the game series was in vain. Thats whats happened here. Thats whats caused the uproar. Not the crap writing or the bugs. The feeling of it all being for nothing.

Well... if you ever visit japan, enter a Mc Donalds. Your Big Macs will look precisely like they do in the commercials and you will get just as many fries as the commercial gives you. But then the japanese do have a tradition for that sort of thing. Your cheeseburger should look like the ones in the commercials.

[Ben Shep]

loungeshep wrote...

After seeing threads bashing them, whining, and now one where someone wants to sue (!) Bioware, I can understand why Hudson acts the way he does.

Agreed!

[RVallant]

Ben Shep wrote...

loungeshep wrote...

After seeing threads bashing them, whining, and now one where someone wants to sue (!) Bioware, I can understand why Hudson acts the way he does.

Agreed!

Good luck to whoever wants to sue them, if you study law you'd see it's not so clear cut as "oooh he said X and it turned out to be Y therefore I can sue him".

It has to be something wholly different.

[SinerAthin]

Biggest danger with success is that you can get a warped image of your own capabilities.

[ToJKa1]

Soverign 666 wrote...

Ok I just finished the games the endings werent great but no where near as bad as i expected reading reaction here? Maybe were overreacting a little bit because its something were so passionate about?

Overreacting? On the internet? Much less BSN? Nah, doesn't happen

[Darth Malignus]

RVallant wrote...

Ben Shep wrote...

loungeshep wrote...

After seeing threads bashing them, whining, and now one where someone wants to sue (!) Bioware, I can understand why Hudson acts the way he does.

Agreed!

Good luck to whoever wants to sue them, if you study law you'd see it's not so clear cut as "oooh he said X and it turned out to be Y therefore I can sue him".

It has to be something wholly different.

Depends. Actually, different laws in different countries sometimes make verbal agreements just as legally valid as written ones. Now, being totally oblivious to what American legislation says about that (I figure that since BioWare is a division of EA, perhaps American laws would apply. Or Canadian. Whatever.), if some person could present the case in a way that a judge would bite that hook, then maybe. You'd have to pull off one hell of a speech, though. And convince him/her that a public statement of a company's lead designer etc. somehow constituted as a verbal agreement.

And besides, if people can sue McDonalds for serving hot coffee, nothing would really surprise me.

[MICHELLE7]

E-Type XR wrote...

It will be remembered... as the worse ending of all time.

Not a good legacy, really

Yeah that "remembered" line was what stuck out to me as well...and that's exactly what I thought too...worse ending of all time.

As for the interview it really does sound like "between the lines" there is no plan for an ending dlc... like they like the controversy and discussions as to what it was really all about...that if it provoked any kind of emotion good or bad then it achieved its purpose...to them that is a well written ending. Or at least that's what I made of the interview.

[AlexMBrennan]

Of course there's no legal case here (if a car is faulty then there'll a massive recall and/or expensive lawsuits, but if software is faulty then... too bad) - but it's a legitimate reason for people to be angry

[Arcanus5]

Farbautisonn wrote...
Well. In statistics for elections in my nation of 5 million you can claim a reasonable accuracy with a poll base of about 1k individuals. I believe presidential polls in the US is below the 10k mark. 40k people threw a vote. Lets for the sake of fairness, buggyness and to be on the safe side that 10k of those votes can be discarded. Thats still 30k votes You work marketing. 30k people polled is a massive undertaking and is usually considered way overkill to rate a product. I have a formal background in Pol sci (european) and polling and statistics was a part of my education. You can voice alot of reasons why  the polls arent accurate but still the number is staggering.  

First of all, thank you for a very interesting post...and I mean that without the usual sarcasm found in forums...
Glad to see there is another pol sci guy here (got my M.A. degree in Germany, although I avoided polling and statistics wherever I could, kinda hate numbers).

You´re right, 40k votes is an impressive number. But my guess, although I don´t know that for sure, is that the people posting on internet forums are the mainly same people participating in these polls, so it is still not respresentative for the whole clientbase, it is more representative of the (larger) fanbase opinion.
It is not like Bioware called these people (regarding age, gender, income etc. like in political polls) and asked for their opinion, here we have people actively looking these polls up. And, like I stated, these active participants are only a small percentage of the real clientbase. And we all know that dissatisfied people always voice there opinion much louder than satisfied costumers :-)
We had such a case recently in Germany, where the whole Internet community was against a project, then the local government let the people vote on it, the result being the majority voting in favor of the project, leavin the internet community baffled. So, although it is an impressive number, I´m not sure you can call it accurat...

Youre right. Most consumers for this game will be the mainstream crowd. The "pew pew mp" crowd who buy several games a year and who are every game studios wet dream because they empower you with a high fiscal turnover. However they too read reviews when they shop at Amazon or other places. They too do look up information and if they come to these boards, the fanbase boards, the impression will not be very favorable. Thats one thing. 

You sure? Aren´t these the guys thinking: Oh, it´s just a bunch of nerds nitpicking and bashing a 40h game because of a 10 minute cutscene ;-)

-I like tragic endings myself. I wont mind Shep dying. But he has to die for something. If he dies for nothing and there is no narrative extrapolation on the effects that his sacrifice has, then the client will find that his "sacrifice" was in vain, and indeed that his entire effort throughout the game series was in vain. Thats whats happened here. Thats whats caused the uproar. Not the crap writing or the bugs. The feeling of it all being for nothing.

Sometimes sacrifices are in vain :-), just like in real life. But I get what you mean...

[Viyu]

I hope nobody's referring to my False advertising thread. I was in no way saying I was going to sue Bioware.

[Farbautisonn]

Arcanus5 wrote...

First of all, thank you for a very interesting post...and I mean that without the usual sarcasm found in forums...
Glad to see there is another pol sci guy here (got my M.A. degree in Germany, although I avoided polling and statistics wherever I could, kinda hate numbers).

-And likewise. Germany is a very good place to pick up a pol-sci degree. It was considered the top place to get a degree in Copenhagen where I studied. We ofcourse consider ourselves a close second

You´re right, 40k votes is an impressive number. But my guess, although I don´t know that for sure, is that the people posting on internet forums are the mainly same people participating in these polls, so it is still not respresentative for the whole clientbase, it is more representative of the (larger) fanbase opinion.
It is not like Bioware called these people (regarding age, gender, income etc. like in political polls) and asked for their opinion, here we have people actively looking these polls up. And, like I stated, these active participants are only a small percentage of the real clientbase. And we all know that dissatisfied people always voice there opinion much louder than satisfied costumers :-)
We had such a case recently in Germany, where the whole Internet community was against a project, then the local government let the people vote on it, the result being the majority voting in favor of the project, leavin the internet community baffled. So, although it is an impressive number, I´m not sure you can call it accurat...

-Which in my humble opinion only makes it worse. Because then its a sign that the "loyalists" are in uproar. Your "safe bread and butter" as it were. As for the term "real" clientbase... sorry for nitpicking... but thats a logical fallacy (sided in Rhetoric).  I suppose you could call it the "overall" clientbase and be right though. However they are a significant target group. They are the ones you usually take for granted. Alienating them is not a good idea, especially in a time of fiscal crisis. Any first year student of economics should be able to figure that out. And sure. The internet community isnt infallible. We have the same issue here. The "left" is traditionally very strong and outspoken in the electronic media, however the "right" has an electorial foothold that has forced the current leftist government to lead a "rightist" policy. It has cost them. Dearly. They campained on a ticket of traditional socialist values and have not delivered on one single promise. The rightist opposition leader was on holiday for 3 months and came back as the most popular politician in half a decade. Thats unheard of in politics here.

You sure? Aren´t these the guys thinking: Oh, it´s just a bunch of nerds nitpicking and bashing a 40h game because of a 10 minute cutscene ;-)

-Pretty sure. Because the campaning and the lobbying against the whole of their game has snowballed from nothing to something in a week. Ten days perhaps. Regardless of how they feel about it, they have to act upon it. If they do not act, things will likely only get worse. Not better.

Sometimes sacrifices are in vain :-), just like in real life. But I get what you mean...

-I know what you mean. I wrote whitepapers on sub sahara (specialized in mid east studies... dont speak arabic, or farsi though) and the mid east. Most sacrifices are in vain. But thats in real life. In fiction we want something that gives us a sense of accomplisment, a reward a sense of closure. We were not given such.

[Warlock Angel22]

Arcanus you make a great point about the hardcore fanbase buying the game anyway. I wish there was a poll on how much of the dlc these people will buy. I remember the uproar about ME2 not being enough of a rpg and people saying they wouldn't buy but the same people who complained bought the game and are now complaining about the ending of ME3. At some point you have to speak with your $$$ or you just aren't going to be heard.

If you want to see true change then you have to force yourself not to purchase the new gun or the next side mission. It's silly to be online complaining about day one dlc on BSN while at the same time it's downloading on the screen right next to you. I personally think their should be a Director's cut adding more endings to the current slate of endings we have. Bioware can always have a canon ending. But ultimately I think all the uproar is a bunch of hot air because Bioware/EA are going to make their money and if a ME expansion pack comes out, the complainers will purchase it day one.

[Lobinic]

Bioware, you lose a fan and customer.

[Chaoswind]

I guess the problem is that they want to continúe the mass effect franchise while giving closure to the Shepard's history, and their execution was uber poor...

what mass effect 3 lacks is the sense of accomplishment, you don't have to win to feel you accomplished something, and BW utterly failed in that aspect.

Give the Shepard's that went after Miranda a son, give the Shepard that went after Liara a daughter, give the tali worshipers a prologue of QUARIANS talking about him, Femsheps would need other forms of closure, but giving our decisions some matter of importance (aside victory or defeat) was a must...

"Victory or defeat it ends here"

Honestly I recived the game today (now I am at work), so i only know what others have spoiled to me (my fault for lurking online), so I don't know if they did this, but judging the rage online seems like they didn't.

[Viyu]

*Points to sig* They promised. They need to deliver. There's nothing "entitled" about expecting people to keep their word.

Modifié par Viyu, 14 mars 2012 - 02:42 .

[Sentr0]

I am in for suing bioware, no kidding

[Elite Midget]

This is just the first stage...

Denial.

Give it time.