176 réponses à ce sujet

[Reptilian Rob]

I'll repost another time with an edited format, as of now it's unreadable. Serves me right for using Word.

[Militarized]

Why put all that effort into a torch and burn... sigh.

I found it readable, but I'm a stubborn ****. 

I have to admit... as a history major myself, I'm fascinated to see how his turns out and if there are any implications in the future. XD 

Modifié par Militarized, 14 mars 2012 - 04:40 .

[LordHuffnPuff]

RubiconI7 wrote...

That was very well written. It offered perspectives that we, not being Literature Majors, lack.

"We" is awfully sweeping.  I asked him where he had published, having been of a similar inclination, and recieved no response.  My curiosity remains unsatisfied.

[NitrAce]

JediMasterAlex1138 wrote...

If this had been in any other form of media it would have been
declared a travesty and a massive disaster akin to the Star Wars prequels or
the end of the Sopranos. Bioware accomplished in FIVE minutes what took Lucas
three films to do, destroy an entire franchise to its literal foundation.

This statement is absolutely ridiculous.  What the Star Wars prequels did is add additional layers of depth and explanatory power to the original trilogy.  The ending of Mass Effect did the exact opposite, by leaving more questions than answers.  Hatred towards the prequels is completely unjustified.  The only reason people do not like them is because they "ruin" what people mistakenly think Star Wars is supposed to be, rather than what it actually is.  I know this is a bit off topic, but as a Star Wars fan, this type of slander incenses me.  To compare the prequels to the horrific ending of Mass Effect is disingenuous.

Man the hypocritical nature of this post. Jeez. I'm a Star Wars fan and while I agree that the prequels weren't bad, just the way you got enflamed amuses me. Seriously, you're going to argue with him about a difference of perception, saying that you enjoyed the prequels so should he. Then the very next sentence you blanket the ending of ME3 and go on to say it was "horrible" for everyone. GG.

[Cosmar]

OP, I have a degree in Writing and agree with everything you said. I'm not sure how these writers, who did a much better job with the rest of the series, managed to drop the ball so hard with this ending.

The only explanations I can think of are that they either literally ran out of time and just had to cobble the current ending together to meet the deadline, or they wrote themselves into a corner and honestly couldn't think of how to best end the series (this is the least plausible, but hey, it happens to most writers at some point), or they wrote it with the "hallucination/indoctrination" theory in mind and will finish it later.

In any case, it's not good...

[superchevy999]

I really think the comparison to the way The Sopranos ended is the best example of what happened.  Critics and casual watchers loved the ending but the really hardcore fans, the ones who had been along for the ride all those years absolutely hated not having closure on all the characters they had come to love or hate.  I personally think thats whats happened on here.  Most of the ppl complaining the loudest are the ones who have become so invested in this series that well honestly it was going to be very hard to make us happy.

Modifié par superchevy999, 14 mars 2012 - 04:43 .

[DarkBladeX98]

I read the whole thing. That was nice. and true.
It also really makes me wonder how a handful of people can just sit back and say the ending was fantastic, but I guess there will always be "those people."
A question to the OP, do you believe this is similar to what happened with Halo Reach? The game contradicts the book pretty well.

[Lyrandori]

JediMasterAlex1138 wrote...

If this had been in any other form of media it would have been
declared a travesty and a massive disaster akin to the Star Wars prequels or
the end of the Sopranos. Bioware accomplished in FIVE minutes what took Lucas
three films to do, destroy an entire franchise to its literal foundation.

This statement is absolutely ridiculous.  What the Star Wars prequels did is add additional layers of depth and explanatory power to the original trilogy.  The ending of Mass Effect did the exact opposite, by leaving more questions than answers.  Hatred towards the prequels is completely unjustified.  The only reason people do not like them is because they "ruin" what people mistakenly think Star Wars is supposed to be, rather than what it actually is.  I know this is a bit off topic, but as a Star Wars fan, this type of slander incenses me.  To compare the prequels to the horrific ending of Mass Effect is disingenuous.

I agree, with the exception of explaining " The Force ".

We didn't need to know "how it worked". It was merely "The Force", as powerful as its very mystery suggested. We had a brief "description" of "it" by Yoda in Empire Strikes Back, and it was a spiritual description ("It's around you, in the rock, in the air, it listens to you").Trying to explain the Reapers' "reasons" or "origins" in the Mass Effect universe is just as bad, if not worse. It made them [Reapers] intimidating in ME1 for that reason (and in ME2 to some extent, but it went a bit downhill from there). Just listen to Sovereign's speech on Virmire, NOW, after ME3's "explainations" of them, that speech doesn't have the same impact at all.

Modifié par Lyrandori, 14 mars 2012 - 04:47 .

[JediMasterAlex1138]

Man the hypocritical nature of this post. Jeez. I'm a Star Wars fan and while I agree that the prequels weren't bad, just the way you got enflamed amuses me. Seriously, you're going to argue with him about a difference of perception, saying that you enjoyed the prequels so should he. Then the very next sentence you blanket the ending of ME3 and go on to say it was "horrible" for everyone. GG.

No, his analogy is wrong.  The Star Wars prequels did not do to Star Wars what the ending of Mass Effect does to Mass Effect.  Whether you like the prequels or the ending of Mass Effect is beside the point.  To not like the Star Wars prequels is a legitimate opinion to be had, but it is not legitimate to say that they utterly ruined the franchise.  However, it is possible to argue that point when it comes to Mass Effect, because the very fabric of the Mass Effect universe, the Mass Relays and their technology which gives its name to the universe, are destroyed.  If Lucas had decided to somehow end the Force in Star Wars, that would be a proper analogy.

[TremulantOne]

This is what frustrates me so much. Much of the writing in smaller, seemingly inconsequential, scenes in the game was phenomenal. To see the caliber of writing take such a nose dive in the last 10 minutes just doesn't make any sense.

I also see a few people saying they liked the endings and saying that the majority just didn't "get it."

Honestly, I would contest, that if you liked the endings, perhaps you never got it. Perhaps you never got Mass Effect at all. This game series enthralled me like none other and I even overlooked design decisions that would normally ****** me off (like the inventory revamp/planet scanning) in ME2 because the story was so well developed. This game played like an interactive book, to see it end this way makes me just wonder what the hell happened.

Although, like you said, if the indoctrination theories are true.... I may not agree with how they handled this, but I'll accept the story.

[Statulos]

You can take a different angle on explaining why the end does not work, you can analize the whole trilogy in terms of a myth. Excuse the incoming wall of text and the lousy English (it´s not my first language and I don´t have a corrector in this computer) so here we go.

Mass Effect combines two myths, in one hand we have a cosmogony and on the other, a monomith (in Campbellian terms), that is, a hero´s journey.

The first element is the most evident: in Mass Effect we are shown a myth about time and cycles. We have the reapers as the destroyers of a universe and by destroying that universe, they allow the creation of a new one. This is the basic asumption of a lot of beliefs; that time is circular and the pattern is inevitable and unstoppable.

On the other hand, the monomyth is a classic one: a hero becomes something bigger than himself/herself by performing something extremely changing and bringing something new to the universe. In this case, the basic premise is breaking that cycle of destruction and rebirth, thus allowing a new universe to exist. Possibilities? Well, one is simply breaking the cycle, not allowing the destruction to happen. Another option is delaying it but allowing the posibility to happen in the future and the final one, is simply creating a new canvas for the old existing elements to start again.

The problem here is not the idea or possibilities of that change, the problem is that we simply do not know what we did. The actions of the hero in this narration "work against nature" and because they do, we are supposed to know what has exactly happened, what has changed and how we have done it.

The whole crucible thing is simply a terrible McGuffin that in the last moment tries to actually have a real role. But which one? We simply don´t know to its full extent. Not knowing what the future will bring was a nice idea for the first two games but the third is the closing chapter. We are simply denied the option to know the full impact of our choice and this time, it is important to know.

Incompatibility of synthetics and organics? Well, I have arrived at the point of helping one find love for another, to the point of self-sacrifice (SID and Joker). Even more, I have demonstrated that they can coexist (geth and quarians) and the end forces me to decide in favor of one or the other. Yes, there is a synthesis option but does that really help both sides? Not really; synthesis simply obliterates the future for organics. Even if we merge both, it´s very possible that destroying the basic framework that allows comunications (mass relays) and with them, trade, information sharing and relationships in general, we have not succedded in creating a new universe, but forcing technology back to pre-space age for everyone.

Why so? Well, the idea of torching the series due to lack of control is not new. Cervantes did that in El Quijote, arround that time when copyright did not exist. This leads us to the notion that Bioware wants to start anew in the future or create prequels to the series. On both cases, the argumentation feels simply economic and not artistic.

I know this is bussines, but bussines works due to good narration. And this is not good narration.

[Reptilian Rob]

Ok, I threw it up on Google doc because the forum here is lame at Word transfer.

[Reptilian Rob]

Cosmar wrote...

OP, I have a degree in Writing and agree with everything you said. I'm not sure how these writers, who did a much better job with the rest of the series, managed to drop the ball so hard with this ending.

The only explanations I can think of are that they either literally ran out of time and just had to cobble the current ending together to meet the deadline, or they wrote themselves into a corner and honestly couldn't think of how to best end the series (this is the least plausible, but hey, it happens to most writers at some point), or they wrote it with the "hallucination/indoctrination" theory in mind and will finish it later.

In any case, it's not good...

It's more or less just bad writing, just horrible...

And to clarify I'm not mainstream published, only in the student UCSD stacks. It's not something however, that one simply just walks in and is accepted. There is an editing process, as with any publication. 

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 14 mars 2012 - 04:55 .

[LordHuffnPuff]

TremulantOne wrote...

Honestly, I would contest, that if you liked the endings, perhaps you never got it.

This is sort of a slap in the face.  Your assumption that you percieve the ultimate truth about Mass Effect and the implicit statement that anybody who disagrees with your statement does not Get It is awfully No True Scotsman.

In fact, I would posit that the majority of people who play[ed] Mass Effect 3 were perfectly happy with the resolution, and that there is a very loud vocal minority that have taken to the internet to complain.  When your game is selling millions of copies and only a few thousand people actively express disappointment, those thousands are not a very strong presence regardless of how loudly they yell.  I would be curious to know how many of my supposed silent majority are looking at these boards going down in metaphorical flames and thinking of posters, in the words of another science fiction captain, "What a whiner."

Modifié par LordHuffnPuff, 14 mars 2012 - 05:00 .

[Tzupi88]

The torch and run part makes me very sad, because, if true, no amount of us holding the line would get us anywhere.


EDIT:

LordHuffnPuff wrote...

This is sort of a slap in the
face.  Your assumption that you percieve the ultimate truth about Mass
Effect and the implicit statement that anybody who disagrees with your
statement does not Get It is awfully No True Scotsman.

In fact,
I would posit that the majority of people who play[ed] Mass Effect 3
were perfectly happy with the resolution, and that there is a very loud
vocal minority that have taken to the internet to complain.  When your
game is selling millions of copies and only a few thousand people
actively express disappointment, those thousands are not a very strong
presence regardless of how loudly they yell.  I would be curious to know
how many of my supposed silent majority are looking at these boards
going down in metaphorical flames and thinking of posters, in the words
of another science fiction captain, "What a whiner."

Actually, statistically speaking, a few thousand people out of a group of 3 million gives you a very good picture of what they think. Quoting myself:

Tzupi88 wrote...

I'd
like to elaborate on that. Using the calculator at:
http://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm and assuming that 3 million
people play the game, to get a 95% +/- 1% accurate result on an opinion
of those people, you would need a sample size of less than 10k people.

We have surpassed that long ago. Don't trust me? Go to the link and do it yourself.

Modifié par Tzupi88, 14 mars 2012 - 05:02 .

[Reptilian Rob]

LordHuffnPuff wrote...

Honestly, I would contest, that if you liked the endings, perhaps you never got it.

This is sort of a slap in the face.  Just saying.

In fact, I would posit that the majority of people who play[ed] Mass Effect 3 were perfectly happy with the resolution, and that there is a very loud vocal minority that have taken to the internet to complain.  When your game is selling millions of copies and only a few thousand people actively express disappointment, those thousands are not a very strong presence regardless of how loudly they yell.  I would be curious to know how many of my supposed silent majority are looking at these boards going down in metaphorical flames and thinking of posters, in the words of another science fiction captain, "What a whiner."

I don't think you truly ever "grapsed" what a lot of people did within Mass Effect, what the majority did. It's not about what we want, it's about what Mass Effect deserves. 

The silent, are the minortiy for a reason.

[Drak41n]

Okay, I didn't read everything you wrote, but I do want to respond to something you said. Someone that purports to be an expert on literature shouldn't say grammar doesn't matter. Grammar matters. It's important. Just because you choose express yourself in a casual format doesn't mean it's pointless. If your argument is,"hey, I'm an expert on literature, you should listen to me on this subject" don't tell us that how words are used and sentences constructed doesn't matter.

I don't expect Internet forum posts to be something worthy of Wordsworth or Elements of Style. I'm usually just happy that people try to punctuate and use paragraphs. But you, who is supposed to understand the importance of language and how it's employed, I expect more from. This is just my crazy, and probably unique, point of view. Disregard at your leisure.

[Reptilian Rob]

Drak41n wrote...

Okay, I didn't read everything you wrote, but I do want to respond to something you said. Someone that purports to be an expert on literature shouldn't say grammar doesn't matter. Grammar matters. It's important. Just because you choose express yourself in a casual format doesn't mean it's pointless. If your argument is,"hey, I'm an expert on literature, you should listen to me on this subject" don't tell us that how words are used and sentences constructed doesn't matter.

I don't expect Internet forum posts to be something worthy of Wordsworth or Elements of Style. I'm usually just happy that people try to punctuate and use paragraphs. But you, who is supposed to understand the importance of language and how it's employed, I expect more from. This is just my crazy, and probably unique, point of view. Disregard at your leisure.

William Wordsworth, along with Sameul Taylor Coleridge consistently used false grammar as a way to create subtle plot deviations. This can be seen in Rime of the Ancient Mariner as well as Kubla Khan.

As for the grammatical sense on a forum, it really doesn't matter, only the message does. You don't have to believe that I am a literature major, as long as the message is heard. But I agree that the format is very wonky, thus me throwing it up on Google Docs. 

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 14 mars 2012 - 05:05 .

[oneyedjohn]

thanks for the prospective.

[DarkBladeX98]

I love how instead of trying to support what this guy wrote and/or pointed out everyone is out to critique the guy just because he stated he is a literature major. Im pretty sure he's not in class right now, guys.

[Sidra2099]

LordHuffnPuff wrote...

TremulantOne wrote...

Honestly, I would contest, that if you liked the endings, perhaps you never got it.

This is sort of a slap in the face.  Your assumption that you percieve the ultimate truth about Mass Effect and the implicit statement that anybody who disagrees with your statement does not Get It is awfully No True Scotsman.

In fact, I would posit that the majority of people who play[ed] Mass Effect 3 were perfectly happy with the resolution, and that there is a very loud vocal minority that have taken to the internet to complain.  When your game is selling millions of copies and only a few thousand people actively express disappointment, those thousands are not a very strong presence regardless of how loudly they yell.  I would be curious to know how many of my supposed silent majority are looking at these boards going down in metaphorical flames and thinking of posters, in the words of another science fiction captain, "What a whiner."

Ah, that that assumes that the silent majority who do not actively express disappointment are, in fact, not disappointed. You don't know. In fact, you hypothesize that they are in fact strongly against, the complaints of the 'vocal minority'.  This argument seems somewhat colored by your own personal opinion, and assumes a 'silent majority' who share your views.
 I don't think anyone can ever really 'know' what ALL the fans think, but if a statistically significant portion are complaining, then it seems to be a reasonable asumption that there is a flaw in the product.

[LordHuffnPuff]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

LordHuffnPuff wrote...

Honestly, I would contest, that if you liked the endings, perhaps you never got it.

This is sort of a slap in the face.  Just saying.

In fact, I would posit that the majority of people who play[ed] Mass Effect 3 were perfectly happy with the resolution, and that there is a very loud vocal minority that have taken to the internet to complain.  When your game is selling millions of copies and only a few thousand people actively express disappointment, those thousands are not a very strong presence regardless of how loudly they yell.  I would be curious to know how many of my supposed silent majority are looking at these boards going down in metaphorical flames and thinking of posters, in the words of another science fiction captain, "What a whiner."

I don't think you truly ever "grapsed" what a lot of people did within Mass Effect, what the majority did. It's not about what we want, it's about what Mass Effect deserves. 

The silent, are the minortiy for a reason.

I actually edited my post a bit while you were typing this, you can go back and check the differences.  I think it applies here as well.  To claim that a person didn't "grasp" Mass Effect simply because he or she did not have the seemingly earth-shattering problems that what I maintain is a vocal minority (and which if you compare the number of posters complaining to the total sales figures, you will see this is borne out -- any arguments to the contrary must ignore the hard facts that millions are greater than thousands*) had is presumptuous.  I understand, you love Mass Effect.  It is a series that you have sunk literally thousands of dollars worth of your own money into, if your claims of purchasing all of the merchandice are true.  You feel betrayed.  There is nothing wrong with that.  The problem is when people start launching personal attacks on others for having a differing opinion.  Saying "I disagree with you for liking [or even just not disliking] the ending, and this is what I think" is a fair and decent way to agree to disagree.  Good, constructive discussion can come out of that.  Saying "you just don't get it" is reductive and nonproductive. 

To address your specific argument about what people want vs. what Mass Effect deserves, I find this concept a bit hard to swallow.  The entire franchise is a media object produced solely for the consumption of the consumer.  You can make highflown arguments about creative expression or the purpose of art, but when it comes down to it, nothing is art without a person to observe it.  Thus Mass Effect does not inherently deserve anything; people want Mass Effect to resolve a certain way, or at the very least not resolve the way it did.  As a result, it is entirely about what people want.  When a product of culture which has reached the level of popularity that Mass Effect has reached ends, there are always people who grab their torches and pitchforks due to dissatisfaction over the conclusion.  If you are currently in college, you may recall the level of outrage leveled at the Seinfeld finale, not to mention the Sopranos which has already been discussed in prior posts.  The same old saws are brought out about bad writing, how this moment has ruined everything prior to it, &c.  Yet in the long term, even the poorest endings don't damage the overall product as a cultural artifact.  It lives or dies on its own merits.  Seinfeld is still running in reruns.

I am sure this post will get flamed or
simply lost in the sea of bile that currently comprises these forums,
but this is the internet, so ce la vie.

*One might make the argument that many of these silent millions are also discontent and simply do not voice their opinions.  If one does not complain, then it is assumed that nothing is wrong.  This is how decisionmaking processes occur.  EDIT: It seems somebody did post something to this effect this while I was typing.  I would argue that less than, say, 40,000 out of multiple millions, in terms of sales figures, is not a truly significant statistic.   Especially when those copies are already paid for anyway, and the majority of those upset will not actually translate into lost sales.

Modifié par LordHuffnPuff, 14 mars 2012 - 05:17 .

[vigna]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Drak41n wrote...

Okay, I didn't read everything you wrote, but I do want to respond to something you said. Someone that purports to be an expert on literature shouldn't say grammar doesn't matter. Grammar matters. It's important. Just because you choose express yourself in a casual format doesn't mean it's pointless. If your argument is,"hey, I'm an expert on literature, you should listen to me on this subject" don't tell us that how words are used and sentences constructed doesn't matter.

I don't expect Internet forum posts to be something worthy of Wordsworth or Elements of Style. I'm usually just happy that people try to punctuate and use paragraphs. But you, who is supposed to understand the importance of language and how it's employed, I expect more from. This is just my crazy, and probably unique, point of view. Disregard at your leisure.

William Wordsworth, along with Sameul Taylor Coleridge consistently used false grammar as a way to create subtle plot deviations. This can be seen in Rime of the Ancient Mariner as well as Kubla Khan.

As for the grammatical sense on a forum, it really doesn't matter, only the message does. You don't have to believe that I am a literature major, as long as the message is heard. But I agree that the format is very wonky, thus me throwing it up on Google Docs. 

It does matter.  When you insert credibilty into a debate the listeners/debaters make assumptions based on the quality of the message--even minutia.  I never use my 'credibilty' because, frankly, it often detracts more than it adds, and people nitpick things like grammar.  if you claimed you were a published astrophysicist and made an error about  some aspect of light speed people would be more apt to take you to task.

That's my two cents. Good read though.

[NitrAce]

I like how this started as a discussion on the literary mistakes of ME3's endings but now has turned into a fallacy fest. People can never focus can they.

[LordHuffnPuff]

vigna wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Drak41n wrote...

Okay, I didn't read everything you wrote, but I do want to respond to something you said. Someone that purports to be an expert on literature shouldn't say grammar doesn't matter. Grammar matters. It's important. Just because you choose express yourself in a casual format doesn't mean it's pointless. If your argument is,"hey, I'm an expert on literature, you should listen to me on this subject" don't tell us that how words are used and sentences constructed doesn't matter.

I don't expect Internet forum posts to be something worthy of Wordsworth or Elements of Style. I'm usually just happy that people try to punctuate and use paragraphs. But you, who is supposed to understand the importance of language and how it's employed, I expect more from. This is just my crazy, and probably unique, point of view. Disregard at your leisure.

William Wordsworth, along with Sameul Taylor Coleridge consistently used false grammar as a way to create subtle plot deviations. This can be seen in Rime of the Ancient Mariner as well as Kubla Khan.

As for the grammatical sense on a forum, it really doesn't matter, only the message does. You don't have to believe that I am a literature major, as long as the message is heard. But I agree that the format is very wonky, thus me throwing it up on Google Docs. 

It does matter.  When you insert credibilty into a debate the listeners/debaters make assumptions based on the quality of the message--even minutia.  I never use my 'credibilty' because, frankly, it often detracts more than it adds, and people nitpick things like grammar.  if you claimed you were a published astrophysicist and made an error about  some aspect of light speed people would be more apt to take you to task.

That's my two cents. Good read though.

While I find the defence of poor grammer in a forum post via citation of canonical authors engaging in practices not even remotely analagous somewhat ridiculous, we are not here to debate whether Rob is a good writer or not.  We are discussing the qualities of the ideas, not their vehicle.

Modifié par LordHuffnPuff, 14 mars 2012 - 05:20 .