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A credentialed literature major, and his take on the ending.


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#76
Reptilian Rob

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LordHuffnPuff wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

LordHuffnPuff wrote...

Honestly, I would contest, that if you liked the endings, perhaps you never got it.


This is sort of a slap in the face.  Just saying.

In fact, I would posit that the majority of people who play[ed] Mass Effect 3 were perfectly happy with the resolution, and that there is a very loud vocal minority that have taken to the internet to complain.  When your game is selling millions of copies and only a few thousand people actively express disappointment, those thousands are not a very strong presence regardless of how loudly they yell.  I would be curious to know how many of my supposed silent majority are looking at these boards going down in metaphorical flames and thinking of posters, in the words of another science fiction captain, "What a whiner."


I don't think you truly ever "grapsed" what a lot of people did within Mass Effect, what the majority did. It's not about what we want, it's about what Mass Effect deserves. 

The silent, are the minortiy for a reason.


I actually edited my post a bit while you were typing this, you can go back and check the differences.  I think it applies here as well.  To claim that a person didn't "grasp" Mass Effect simply because he or she did not have the seemingly earth-shattering problems that what I maintain is a vocal minority (and which if you compare the number of posters complaining to the total sales figures, you will see this is borne out -- any arguments to the contrary must ignore the hard facts that millions are greater than thousands*) had is presumptuous.  I understand, you love Mass Effect.  It is a series that you have sunk literally thousands of dollars worth of your own money into, if your claims of purchasing all of the merchandice are true.  You feel betrayed.  There is nothing wrong with that.  The problem is when people start launching personal attacks on others for having a differing opinion.  Saying "I disagree with you for liking [or even just not disliking] the ending, and this is what I think" is a fair and decent way to agree to disagree.  Good, constructive discussion can come out of that.  Saying "you just don't get it" is reductive and nonproductive. 

To address your specific argument about what people want vs. what Mass Effect deserves, I find this concept a bit hard to swallow.  The entire franchise is a media object produced solely for the consumption of the consumer.  You can make highflown arguments about creative expression or the purpose of art, but when it comes down to it, nothing is art without a person to observe it.  Thus Mass Effect does not inherently deserve anything; people want Mass Effect to resolve a certain way, or at the very least not resolve the way it did.  As a result, it is entirely about what people want.  When a product of culture which has reached the level of popularity that Mass Effect has reached ends, there are always people who grab their torches and pitchforks due to dissatisfaction over the conclusion.  If you are currently in college, you may recall the level of outrage leveled at the Seinfeld finale, not to mention the Sopranos which has already been discussed in prior posts.  The same old saws are brought out about bad writing, how this moment has ruined everything prior to it, &c.  Yet in the long term, even the poorest endings don't damage the overall product as a cultural artifact.  It lives or dies on its own merits.  Seinfeld is still running in reruns.

I am sure this post will get flamed or
simply lost in the sea of bile that currently comprises these forums,
but this is the internet, so ce la vie.

*One might make the argument that many of these silent millions are also discontent and simply do not voice their opinions.  If one does not complain, then it is assumed that nothing is wrong.  This is how decisionmaking processes occur.  EDIT: It seems somebody did post something to this effect this while I was typing.  I would argue that less than, say, 40,000 out of multiple millions, in terms of sales figures, is not a truly significant statistic.   Especially when those copies are already paid for anyway, and the majority of those upset will not actually translate into lost sales.

It's not going to be flamed, at least not by me. I actually like different opinions because they make us think and rethink, in turn creating better ideas and logic.

The Sopranos was a bad example, I'll agree with that. But think of it like this, what is 2001 ended with the kaleidoscope scene and everything up until that point was nothing more than a dream? What if, none of the context ever made sense, do you think if would be the masterpeice it is today? 

#77
Darthlawsuit

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Some of these organics do not make logical sense. Writing is a form of communication and if one is able to write in a way that everyone understands them then what is the error there?

#78
Harbinger of Hope

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A great read. I do however think that a second proof-reading pass would make it seem more professional. And right now, with the media bashing us, that is something we could use on our side.

#79
Tzupi88

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LordHuffnPuff wrote...

that what I maintain is a vocal minority (and which if you
compare the number of posters complaining to the total sales figures,
you will see this is borne out -- any arguments to the contrary must
ignore the hard facts that millions are greater than thousands*)


So statistics ignores basic number theory. News to me.

#80
Dreogan

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I'm not going to outright call the poster a liar, but I am concerned there are two (and a half) grammatical errors in the thread title.

#81
Reptilian Rob

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Harbinger of Hope wrote...

A great read. I do however think that a second proof-reading pass would make it seem more professional. And right now, with the media bashing us, that is something we could use on our side.

Alright, would you guys be open to helping me edit and add things to the doc?

Lets make this a group effort! I'll even make a group is you guys want.

#82
LordHuffnPuff

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Reptilian Rob wrote...

It's not going to be flamed, at least not by me. I actually like different opinions because they make us think and rethink, in turn creating better ideas and logic.

The Sopranos was a bad example, I'll agree with that. But think of it like this, what is 2001 ended with the kaleidoscope scene and everything up until that point was nothing more than a dream? What if, none of the context ever made sense, do you think if would be the masterpeice it is today? 


Let's not create a quote tunnel now.  Snipped.

I am not sure that 2001 is quite the comparison you're looking for.  The kaleidoscope scene is a non-narrative sequence*.  It is a lot of flashing lights.  The ending of Mass Effect 3, even if you claim that it was incoherent, still contained more narrative than that.  It showed the conclusion to a story that despite how you felt about it and how many questions it left you with, contained a narrative thread.  The same could not be said of 2001 if it were to end with a seemingly random sequence of flashing lights, though I would suspect that quite a few thesis papers on science fiction and popular culture would attempt to make sense of it.

*I do not want to get into a debate over whether there is a narrative to the kaleidoscope sequence.  I am aware that one could make that argument.  For the sake of the discussion here let us not be pedantic.  Well, more pedantic than it already has become.

Tzupi88 wrote...

LordHuffnPuff wrote...

that what I maintain is a vocal minority (and which if you
compare the number of posters complaining to the total sales figures,
you will see this is borne out -- any arguments to the contrary must
ignore the hard facts that millions are greater than thousands*)


So statistics ignores basic number theory. News to me.


Your seemingly willful ignorance of the specific framing of my argument elucidated in the footnote leads me to believe you are simply attempting to troll.  I don't plan on addressing your subsequent posts as a result.

Modifié par LordHuffnPuff, 14 mars 2012 - 05:32 .


#83
Reptilian Rob

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Dreogan wrote...

I'm not going to outright call the poster a liar, but I am concerned there are two (and a half) grammatical errors in the thread title.

Totally entitled to your opinion, no flak from me. 

#84
Dreogan

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Am I the only person on earth that thought 2001 was absolute ****?

Oh god, please dear baby Jesu don't let this become a "It's so deep (hipster eyeglass shove)" Donnie Darko/Brazil response.

Modifié par Dreogan, 14 mars 2012 - 05:34 .


#85
Zolt51

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A few comments:

" EA influenced Bioware"
==> I think mostly on the release date, which might have caused a rush in certain areas.
From the latest Casey Hudson interview, he says that it was their intention all along to cause a bit of an uproar. Wanted the game to be "remembered". Ex-bioware lead writer Drew also seems to confirm that the ending is consistent with the themes they had in mind all along.

"The franchise might as well never have existed".
==> Except for the millions of dollars it has reaped you mean. Continuing the franchise after ME3 was not in the original plans anyway.

"Torch the franchise and run?"
==> This is not a closed ending with everyone dead. In fact most people complain that the ending is too open and vague. In any case, there is no evidence of major conflict between the creative people and the business side so this is in nobody's interest.

Personally I just think the ending was just poorly executed. They had a grand, intricate concept for it, but they did a poor job of explaining that concept in terms that the masses could understand or empathize with. That's too bad because they had most of the groundwork done right with the Tuchanka episode, then the Geth and Quarian thing.

If you're serious about SF, you know that plot holes are inevitable when you develop a new concept. The more daring and innovative the concept, the more plot holes it creates. Hell, the most admired Sci-fi and fantasy franchises of all time have plot holes you could drive a Death Star through.
These just take work and time to fill in with something credible and they were short on that.

But mostly, you make good and well constructed points in your essay. What it lacks is a practical way for Bioware to address the problems. That should be addressed, unless you never intended you r essay to generate any concrete action.

Modifié par Zolt51, 14 mars 2012 - 05:34 .


#86
Reptilian Rob

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LordHuffnPuff wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

It's not going to be flamed, at least not by me. I actually like different opinions because they make us think and rethink, in turn creating better ideas and logic.

The Sopranos was a bad example, I'll agree with that. But think of it like this, what is 2001 ended with the kaleidoscope scene and everything up until that point was nothing more than a dream? What if, none of the context ever made sense, do you think if would be the masterpeice it is today? 


Let's not create a quote tunnel now.  Snipped.

I am not sure that 2001 is quite the comparison you're looking for.  The kaleidoscope scene is a non-narrative sequence*.  It is a lot of flashing lights.  The ending of Mass Effect 3, even if you claim that it was incoherent, still contained more narrative than that.  It showed the conclusion to a story that despite how you felt about it and how many questions it left you with, contained a narrative thread.  The same could not be said of 2001 if it were to end with a seemingly random sequence of flashing lights, though I would suspect that quite a few thesis papers on science fiction and popular culture would attempt to make sense of it.

*I do not want to get into a debate over whether there is a narrative to the kaleidoscope sequence.  I am aware that one could make that argument.  For the sake of the discussion here let us not be pedantic.  Well, more pedantic than it already has become.

Tzupi88 wrote...

LordHuffnPuff wrote...

that what I maintain is a vocal minority (and which if you
compare the number of posters complaining to the total sales figures,
you will see this is borne out -- any arguments to the contrary must
ignore the hard facts that millions are greater than thousands*)


So statistics ignores basic number theory. News to me.


Your seemingly willful ignorance of the specific framing of my argument elucidated in the footnote leads me to believe you are simply attempting to troll.  I don't plan on addressing your subsequent posts as a result.

The 2001 scene in question would have made a poor ending, as in the case of ME3. It leaves a lot of holes open, and a lot of substance misplaced.

This wasn't a labor of complete ambition, I wasn't trying to write an exposition or a profession break down. This was just a fan, speaking out. 

#87
Reptilian Rob

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Dreogan wrote...

Am I the only person on earth that thought 2001 was absolute ****?

Oh god, please dear baby Jesu don't let this become a "It's so deep (hipster eyeglass shove)" Donnie Darko/Brazil response.

Not at all, a lot of people agree it's not the film people make it out to be. Same with Alien or Forbidden Planet.

#88
Tzupi88

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LordHuffnPuff wrote...

Your seemingly willful ignorance of the specific framing of my argument elucidated in the footnote leads me to believe you are simply attempting to troll.  I don't plan on addressing your subsequent posts as a result.


Yeah, calling me a troll is easier than admitting statistics backs up your opponents argument.

#89
Reptilian Rob

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And to clarify I'm not an english major, I'm a literature major. Thus the process of editing for us writers, and why we hate it so.

#90
Billabong2011

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Can you please send this to Bioware? I mean, not just spam their inboxes, but like, make a billboard just outside their office building and fly in multiple packets of this document by helicopter to be dropped onto the HQ roof?
I'm being completely sincere here. Please, I beg!!

Modifié par Billabong2011, 14 mars 2012 - 05:37 .


#91
LordHuffnPuff

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Reptilian Rob wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

Am I the only person on earth that thought 2001 was absolute ****?

Oh god, please dear baby Jesu don't let this become a "It's so deep (hipster eyeglass shove)" Donnie Darko/Brazil response.

Not at all, a lot of people agree it's not the film people make it out to be. Same with Alien or Forbidden Planet.


I did not find it nearly as impressive as I had anticipated.  

Let me throw out a thought-bomb for the masses: I enjoyed Mass Effect 3, including the ending, more than I enjoyed the novel Ender's Game, another seemingly-beloved piece of science fiction. 

Modifié par LordHuffnPuff, 14 mars 2012 - 05:38 .


#92
Dreogan

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Zolt51 wrote...

A few comments:

" EA influenced Bioware"
==> I think mostly on the release date, which might have caused a rush in certain areas.
From the latest Casey Hudson interview, he says that it was their intention all along to cause a bit of an uproar. Wanted the game to be "remembered". Ex-bioware lead writer Drew also seems to confirm that the ending is consistent with the themes they had in mind all along.

"The franchise might as well never have existed".
==> Except for the millions of dollars it has reaped you mean. Continuing the franchise after ME3 was not in the original plans anyway.

"Torch the franchise and run?"
==> This is not a closed ending with everyone dead. In fact most people complain that the ending is too open and vague. In any case, there is no evidence of major conflict between the creative people and the business side so this is in nobody's interest.

Personally I just think the ending was just poorly executed. They had a grand, intricate concept for it, but they did a poor job of explaining that concept in terms that the masses could understand or empathize with. That's too bad because they had most of the groundwork done right with the Tuchanka episode, then the Geth and Quarian thing.

If you're serious about SF, you know that plot holes are inevitable when you develop a new concept. The more daring and innovative the concept, the more plot holes it creates. Hell, the most admired Sci-fi and fantasy franchises of all time have plot holes you could drive a Death Star through.
These just take work and time to fill in with something credible and they were short on that.

But mostly, you make good and well constructed points in your essay. What it lacks is a practical way for Bioware to address the problems. That should be addressed, unless you never intended you r essay to generate any concrete action.


I always hate to read your comments, since I always end up agreeing with you slightly. I think that's a compliment! I agree even the current endings could be salvaged with more effective storytelling. I do know, after what I saw with several vignettes throughout ME3, that the talent is there-- I'm just unsure if the talent is in enough of a position of authority for it to cause change.

If the lead writer wrote the ending, then I'm tempted to say he's better at managing other writers than storytelling himself. I don't know who actually wrote each scene, though, so I'll withhold that particular low blow.

I did not find it nearly as impressive as I had anticipated.  

[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">Let me throw out a thought-bomb for the masses: ]Ender's Game[/color], another seemingly-beloved piece of science fiction.   


I hated that story with every fibre of my being. Mostly for the spandex battle suits; they painted such an uncomfortable mental image. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (no relation, obviously) also suffered from the Spandex Problem.

Modifié par Dreogan, 14 mars 2012 - 05:41 .


#93
AlphaJarmel

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Reptilian Rob wrote...

Ok, well I just threw it up on Google docs. Here's the link if you want to read the edited version with fixed format. 

https://docs.google....YfJrHiifMQ/edit


I would have liked to hear the professor's analysis of the ending.  Too bad you didn't record him or something.

#94
Archereon

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superchevy999 wrote...

I really think the comparison to the way The Sopranos ended is the best example of what happened.  Critics and casual watchers loved the ending but the really hardcore fans, the ones who had been along for the ride all those years absolutely hated not having closure on all the characters they had come to love or hate.  I personally think thats whats happened on here.  Most of the ppl complaining the loudest are the ones who have become so invested in this series that well honestly it was going to be very hard to make us happy.


Well, game critics usually don't factor in story all that much. It's mostly about how the game plays, and how much the game's publisher is paying them for ads.

#95
Thompson family

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You lost me at "UCSD," which I presume is University of California, San Diego. Don't read authors who can't even rise above jargon because they assume everyone knows what they're talking about. They have nothing to say about good writing that deserves attention.

#96
SpartanChiva

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Rob... Good read and great analysis.

Wish this was published on a serious gaming magazine.

#97
Reptilian Rob

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Thompson family wrote...

You lost me at "UCSD," which I presume is University of California, San Diego. Don't read authors who can't even rise above jargon because they assume everyone knows what they're talking about. They have nothing to say about good writing that deserves attention.

Until you can write something on par or a counter statement, we will agree to dissagree with that blanket statement. 

#98
Lugaidster

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LordHuffnPuff wrote...

I actually edited my post a bit while you were typing this, you can go back and check the differences.  I think it applies here as well.  To claim that a person didn't "grasp" Mass Effect simply because he or she did not have the seemingly earth-shattering problems that what I maintain is a vocal minority (and which if you compare the number of posters complaining to the total sales figures, you will see this is borne out -- any arguments to the contrary must ignore the hard facts that millions are greater than thousands*) had is presumptuous.  I understand, you love Mass Effect.  It is a series that you have sunk literally thousands of dollars worth of your own money into, if your claims of purchasing all of the merchandice are true.  You feel betrayed.  There is nothing wrong with that.  The problem is when people start launching personal attacks on others for having a differing opinion.  Saying "I disagree with you for liking [or even just not disliking] the ending, and this is what I think" is a fair and decent way to agree to disagree.  Good, constructive discussion can come out of that.  Saying "you just don't get it" is reductive and nonproductive. 

To address your specific argument about what people want vs. what Mass Effect deserves, I find this concept a bit hard to swallow.  The entire franchise is a media object produced solely for the consumption of the consumer.  You can make highflown arguments about creative expression or the purpose of art, but when it comes down to it, nothing is art without a person to observe it.  Thus Mass Effect does not inherently deserve anything; people want Mass Effect to resolve a certain way, or at the very least not resolve the way it did.  As a result, it is entirely about what people want.  When a product of culture which has reached the level of popularity that Mass Effect has reached ends, there are always people who grab their torches and pitchforks due to dissatisfaction over the conclusion.  If you are currently in college, you may recall the level of outrage leveled at the Seinfeld finale, not to mention the Sopranos which has already been discussed in prior posts.  The same old saws are brought out about bad writing, how this moment has ruined everything prior to it, &c.  Yet in the long term, even the poorest endings don't damage the overall product as a cultural artifact.  It lives or dies on its own merits.  Seinfeld is still running in reruns.

I am sure this post will get flamed or
simply lost in the sea of bile that currently comprises these forums,
but this is the internet, so ce la vie.

*One might make the argument that many of these silent millions are also discontent and simply do not voice their opinions.  If one does not complain, then it is assumed that nothing is wrong.  This is how decisionmaking processes occur.  EDIT: It seems somebody did post something to this effect this while I was typing.  I would argue that less than, say, 40,000 out of multiple millions, in terms of sales figures, is not a truly significant statistic.   Especially when those copies are already paid for anyway, and the majority of those upset will not actually translate into lost sales.


You hold a very good point about "vocal minorities" but you can't dismiss the voice of few because of the silence of many, it's not logical. The only logical argument that you can make is that they don't dislike it enough to actually bother complaining, and that's a very true statement. As much as I didn't like the ending on Lost, I wasn't a fan, it didn't displease me enough to actually make a statement. 

It is very easy to claim that any poll taken here on the forum is going to be biased, but do not dismiss the voice because of bias. Even if only "a few" out of the million copies sold are vocal, there's still other observable effects that validate the claims. Case in point, the price reductions in several retail sites.

In the end, the real outcome of this debacle is only going to be seen when this is over and done with, any premature attempt from either party to interpret the outcome is going to be unfounded.

#99
Sc2mashimaro

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I thought it was very well written and I linked it on Mass Effect's facebook for them. Politely, of course, so hopefully someone will read it there.

Also, I don't think we're just a vocal minority. Vocal minorities don't police themselves very well and you end up with the threats and other things we've been very successful at pushing back against. We all know the score here, renegades and paragons, malesheps and femsheps, krogans and asari, long time bioware fans and newcomers. We're standing together like Shepard would have us do because this game was inspiration-ally good until the last 10 minutes where it took everything we loved about it and burned it. That's why we all keep saying that we will hold the line. So, keep up the good work everyone and hold the line.

#100
logan23tom78

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You should place this on reddit!

Great job!