319 réponses à ce sujet

[Noelemahc]

So as not to be empty-worded, some of those dialogues (yes, reconstructed badly by hand because I really don't want to save-edit the game -- but there ARE videos of these on YouTube done by people who have fiddled their saves): clickie-click!

[Noelemahc]

It just seems to me that at the point where you decide to go cross-species, since you won't be able to procreate anyway (unless the other side is an asari), does it really matter what gender either of you is? Love is love, it isn't gender-dependant (or race-dependant, for that matter), and sex, when separated from the element of procreation, is about giving the other party enjoyment, preferrably in a mutual way, that is generally enhanced if there's underlying positive emotions.

Tl;dr: Unless you're a prude, there was no real justification for cutting this from the game =)

[TeaCokeProphet]

Noelemahc wrote...

It just seems to me that at the point where you decide to go cross-species, since you won't be able to procreate anyway (unless the other side is an asari), does it really matter what gender either of you is? Love is love, it isn't gender-dependant (or race-dependant, for that matter), and sex, when separated from the element of procreation, is about giving the other party enjoyment, preferrably in a mutual way, that is generally enhanced if there's underlying positive emotions.

Tl;dr: Unless you're a prude, there was no real justification for cutting this from the game =)

That's kinda like saying once you go gay, you might as well go s&m. Sexual fetishes (alien races) and sexual preferences (sexuality) are just entirely different things. It doesn't work like that.

[Mev186]

As much as I would like Tali to be romancable to FemShep (Jenifer Hale would be great!) I have to agree with the sentiment that not everybody swings both ways. It would seem forced if everyone was romancable.

[Noelemahc]

TeaCokeProphet wrote...
That's kinda like saying once you go gay, you might as well go s&m. Sexual fetishes (alien races) and sexual preferences (sexuality) are just entirely different things. It doesn't work like that.

Nah, by your comparison, that's kinda like saying if you don't like people of colour, why do you tolerate the existance of gingers and blondes? They're genetic aberrations also, let's burn them at the stake.

Mine was more about "what do gender roles in sex matter at this point if there's mutual affection and even if you were the right matchup of genders, you wouldn't have offspring anyway?"  Please note that affection is a prerequisite. As long as its consensual and doesn't affect anyone else, why should you care if something's going on in someone's bedroom when you're not looking?

I'm for self-determination. If a given FemShep wants to boink Morinth, by all means, let her go to her doom. If she'd rather risk Tali's health... well, it's between her and Tali, and Tali, as we know, doesn't actually mind.

I have to agree with the sentiment that not everybody swings both ways. It would seem forced if everyone was romancable.

The standing issue (for me, at least) is that they forgot to remove the bit where Tali implies that she kinda does, and that's sad. You can see she's in the closet, you can touch the closet, but Saren forbid you try to open it.

Jack's justification for cutting off the bisexuality was at least more plausible.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 23 avril 2012 - 08:28 .

[Edolix]

Honestly can't imagine Tali going lesbian. It really doesn't fit her character. As mentioned by many people above, it would be a forced romance at best.

I even thought making Kaidan gay was a bit of a stetch on BioWare's part, considering he was completely hetero in ME1. But w/e.

[Noelemahc]

I even thought making Kaidan gay was a bit of a stetch on BioWare's part, considering he was completely hetero in ME1. But w/e.

Again, he wasn't originally intended to be, it was cut. I understand that it looks funny that Shepard works as a sex magnet -- a lot of people complained about that in DA2, AFAIK -- but it's not my fault that they kept adding new bi and gay LIs instead of fleshing out the existing potential. Traynor and Cortez stand well as their own characters even if you don't sleep with them. Varric and Vega, however, could have benefitted from being at least hetero romance options =) As it is, the farthest you get with Vega is friendzoning him (and then watching him fumble around Ash, which, while funny, is also never resolved to anyone's satisfaction), and with Varric you don't even get that. He's like the Garrus of DA2, the ultimate bro that you can't touch because he's a bro =)

Modifié par Noelemahc, 23 avril 2012 - 08:33 .

[5083100]

I felt femshep/Tali relationship grew to be more like that of sisters', so it didn't seem so necessary. Especially for earthborn and colonist background, I kind of hoped for a dialogue suggesting Tali and Shepard seeing each other as a good friend and a family, a.k.a. 'sistah from anotha motha' sort of thing.

[TeaCokeProphet]

Noelemahc wrote...
Nah, by your comparison, that's kinda like saying if you don't like people of colour, why do you tolerate the existance of gingers and blondes? They're genetic aberrations also, let's burn them at the stake.

Mine was more about "what do gender roles in sex matter at this point if there's mutual affection and even if you were the right matchup of genders, you wouldn't have offspring anyway?"  Please note that affection is a prerequisite. As long as its consensual and doesn't affect anyone else, why should you care if something's going on in someone's bedroom when you're not looking?

I'm for self-determination. If a given FemShep wants to boink Morinth, by all means, let her go to her doom. If she'd rather risk Tali's health... well, it's between her and Tali, and Tali, as we know, doesn't actually mind.

I don't understand the jump in logic there with the racism analogy. I'm just saying that having an attraction to a member of a different species isn't the same as seeing past gender boundaries in regards to sex. Being attracted to an alien is more akin to a fetish, like sadomasichism. Gender roles have nothing to do with that.

This is probably going to turn into one of those debates where we're arguing a different subject than the other entirely. Might already be happening.

[SimonTheFrog]

I don't get the "both ways" argument.

If you play the story, Tali is just Tali at first. You don't know anything about her sexuality until you either can romance her or not.

"swinging both ways" would only apply if you see her from a meta-game perspective, just like Shepard is both female and male, krogans are both sterile and fertile... it doesn't make sense to see it that way.

[TeaCokeProphet]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

I don't get the "both ways" argument.

If you play the story, Tali is just Tali at first. You don't know anything about her sexuality until you either can romance her or not.

"swinging both ways" would only apply if you see her from a meta-game perspective, just like Shepard is both female and male, krogans are both sterile and fertile... it doesn't make sense to see it that way.

That's a pretty good point. A universe in which Shepard is female, the geth and quarians made peace, and the krogan are sterile is fundamentally different than the universe in which Shepard is male, the quarians destroy the geth, and the genophage is cured. It's not hard to conclude that someone's sexual orientation was changed along the way.

[Volumes]

No thanks.

[Noelemahc]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

I don't get the "both ways" argument.

If you play the story, Tali is just Tali at first. You don't know anything about her sexuality until you either can romance her or not.

"swinging both ways" would only apply if you see her from a meta-game perspective, just like Shepard is both female and male, krogans are both sterile and fertile... it doesn't make sense to see it that way.

That... makes a lot of sense. I concede that within the set boundaries we might have to accept Tali as hetero in the universes where Shepard is male, and either hetero or unrecoverably deep in the closet where Shepard is female.

Which doesn't make me lament that fact any less, of course =)

[Vapaa]

Edolix wrote...

Honestly can't imagine Tali going lesbian. It really doesn't fit her character. As mentioned by many people above, it would be a forced romance at best.

Tali was a forced/retconed romance for Maleshep in ME2 as well. I can totally see Tali as bi, especially given the amout of Les yay between her and Femshep

5083100 wrote...

I felt femshep/Tali relationship grew to be more like that of sisters', so it didn't seem so necessary.

I can say this for Maleshep as well, anyway, romance aren't necessary to begin with, it's just some kind of neat feature to customize your Shepard, so I thing every LI should be bi, and if you want something like a bro-sis/sis-sis relationship, you can always go for it

Modifié par Vapaä, 23 avril 2012 - 10:15 .

[Edolix]

Vapaä wrote...

Edolix wrote...

Honestly can't imagine Tali going lesbian. It really doesn't fit her character. As mentioned by many people above, it would be a forced romance at best.

Tali was a forced/retconed romance for Maleshep in ME2 as well. I can totally see Tali as bi, especially given the amout of Les yay between her and Femshep

Mabye you're right, I wouldn't know though. Never played as a female Shep myself, so I don't know how her relationship with Tali plays out. Tali never struck me as someone that would swing that way though.

I definately wouldn't say the Male Shep romance with her was forced, quite the opposite actually. It felt very natural to me.

[Vapaa]

Edolix wrote...

I definately wouldn't say the Male Shep romance with her was forced, quite the opposite actually. It felt very natural to me.

What I mean by "forced" is more the fact that Tali's LI status is something the fans wanted but was not part of her character at first, the fact that Tali even consider interspecies relationship, in itself, is a change in her charcter

(and to be clear: I totally support this type of character evolution )

Modifié par Vapaä, 23 avril 2012 - 11:33 .

[daecath]

As much as I like Tali, it doesn't make sense for her character. Which is ok, I'd rather see them be true to the characters than try to fit in some contrived "oh suddenly he/she is gay". Oh wait, they already did. Well, it was just kaiden, and frankly, I can actually see that one.

The one that does kind of tick me off is Jack. I was so ready to try and romance Jack. Then, nothing. Hello, she already admitted she's bi. What, FemShep not good enough for her? She's not into chicks with scars and glowing red eyes that save the galaxy? So disappointed about that one.

[Noelemahc]

Mabye you're right, I wouldn't know though. Never played as a female Shep myself, so I don't know how her relationship with Tali plays out. Tali never struck me as someone that would swing that way though.

Exactly the same as for MaleShep, except that you don't get to agree to see where "joining suits" would lead. That's it. Everything else is identical, down to the wording of the lines. You only get the friendzoning and "oh noes, alien cooties" dialogue options.

Which is ok, I'd rather see them be true to the characters than try to fit in some contrived "oh suddenly he/she is gay". Oh wait, they already did. Well, it was just kaiden, and frankly, I can actually see that one.

As I said, this is open to interpretation, but since they took the meat cleaver to the dialogue instead of stitches and patches, it feels for some of us as if there's subtext and willingness, but we can't take it anywhere. It's the same for Ash and Kaidan in ME1 - since you get the EXACT SAME DIALOGUE sans the "Nice shoes, wanna frell?" options, right down to the winks and nudges and whatnot. The hurting point is that ME3 is the first one to introduce gender-specific moments for dialogues with Sheppy Shep, and even then, there's still subtext between her and Tali present.

The one that does kind of tick me off is Jack. I was so ready to try and romance Jack. Then, nothing. Hello, she already admitted she's bi. What, FemShep not good enough for her? She's not into chicks with scars and glowing red eyes that save the galaxy? So disappointed about that one.

Same thing, meat cleaver to the dialogue. Instead of the dialogue branch where you'd try and convince her to one-night-stand you or try the long approach, you are shunted into the "screwed around and left it at that" resolution dialogue at once. This also kills any fun in talking to Jack as FemShep from around the middle of the game onwards - she doesn't have much in the way of non-personal-quest-or-Romance dialoguing outside of the Collector Base resolution.

They didn't even try to salvage it by adding a bit line about how her prior experience with women had left her wanting something else, a simple and believable justification.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 23 avril 2012 - 11:40 .

[Baihu1983]

lillitheris wrote...

Baihu1983 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Baihu1983 wrote...

Why should every character suddenly be BI?

They're not bisexual…they're either straight or gay, depending on which you play.

I mean, you're not arguing about Mordin being both alive and dead at the same time because that can happen in different playthroughs?

Also, Tali was supposed to be romanceable by both – you can actually see it in the parts that didn't get cut out of ME2. (She's got some suggestive dialogue, plus the LotSB dossier gives you some more details regardless of Shepard's sex.)

But if you dont romance her she will go with Garrus, so she would be BI in a femshep game.

Ah, but she wouldn't go with Garrus.

Says who? If Male shep does not romance her she goes with Garrus if both are alive.

[DevilBeast]

Heavvy Metall wrote...

I've got a quick question, how do qaurian's determine attractiveness? They're all in the same suits and look exactly the same. Do the better looking quarians have better suits? or do they smell better? i'm confused.

By looking at each others photoshopped pictures, of course

[Noelemahc]

Says who? If Male shep does not romance her she goes with Garrus if both are alive.

And so she does if FemShep doesn't romance Garrus. My Liaramancer Shep was happy for them =)

DevilBeast wrote...

Heavvy Metall wrote...

I've
got a quick question, how do qaurian's determine attractiveness?
They're all in the same suits and look exactly the same. Do the better
looking quarians have better suits? or do they smell better? i'm
confused.

By looking at each others photoshopped pictures, of course../../../images/forum/emoticons/happy.png

Or like dwarves of the Discworld guess each other's gender -- judge by the personality and hope for the best =)
There, BTW, is a fun example of a fantasy/sci-fi culture where gender is irrelephant if two people love each other (although for the simple reason that revealing your gender publicly is considered shameful).

Modifié par Noelemahc, 23 avril 2012 - 12:14 .

[Baihu1983]

Noelemahc wrote...

Says who? If Male shep does not romance her she goes with Garrus if both are alive.

And so she does if FemShep doesn't romance Garrus. My Liaramancer Shep was happy for them =)

I know, read the other quotes. If Tali was a fem shep LI aswell that would make her BI. My original question is why people want so many bi characters now?

[Dendio1]

Baihu1983 wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...

Says who? If Male shep does not romance her she goes with Garrus if both are alive.

And so she does if FemShep doesn't romance Garrus. My Liaramancer Shep was happy for them =)

I know, read the other quotes. If Tali was a fem shep LI aswell that would make her BI. My original question is why people want so many bi characters now?

Funny thing is there was criticism for the dragon age team making all of the love interests go both ways depending on the player input. YOU CANT WIN.

People literally complained on both sides of the fence for this one

Modifié par Dendio1, 23 avril 2012 - 01:50 .

[DistantUtopia]

MerchantGOL wrote...
 Nods 

every one being magicly bi was some thing i hated about  da 2 

Space Magic!

[Noelemahc]

Funny thing is there was criticism for the dragon age team making all of the love interests go both ways depending on the player input. YOU CANT WIN.

People literally complained on both sides of the fence for this one

That was more about DA2 than DAO, however. I'd kill to have Alistair as a same-sex option. That dude is totally a sub =3

What I'd LOVE to see is if a game would make you WORK for that bi option. The girl is straight, she identifies as straight, you fight for her anyway. (Or vice versa if it's a dude and you're a dude, and he thinks you're looking at him the wrong way) Go that extra mile, navigate those complex dialogue options.... Leliana's romance in DAO felt somewhat like that, in fact. Or Isabela's (still in DAO), if you consider vying for the foursome "romance" =) Conversely, getting into a threesome in DA2 is as easy as being on Isa's "frell list" when you run into Zevran. No effort at all.

The most sexual orientation doubting we've ever had in a video game before was Juhani in KotOR, and even that was ruined by the bug which made her romanceable by guys. And the retcons about "no gay Jedi, bad, bad BioWare".

I have this laundry list of dream RPG elements and I keep realizing that it's less and less of a WRPG and more of a JRPG or (gasp) Visual Novel. Then again, it's not a bad thing. Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor is practically a visual novel with the occasional interactive combat scene, and it has more RPG depth than Mass Effect 3.

But I digress.

I think everyone wants the bi option because it makes them look sophisticated and not perverted at all.
"Sure, you guys can still totally bang Tali so long as I get her to eat me out if I want to"

Since a significant portion of ME players are guys, you really gotta wonder how many of them are doing this for in-universe Rule 34?

Modifié par Noelemahc, 23 avril 2012 - 02:03 .