205 réponses à ce sujet

[Peete]

111987 wrote...

I think the person whom mentioned the Reaper IFF is onto something. We know the Normandy was under Alliance control for 2 months. The Codex or the War Assets journal talked about how the Thanix cannons had been mass produced by the time of ME3. Taking the IFF would make sense too, and from their the Alliance could just provide all the other species with the IFF.

Excellent point! Although does the game itself even mention this? I think not.

I don't know, am I just being childish and missing the point of an RPG when want to be told everything?

As it is right now I'm calling it a plot hole. The second they make a statement on twitter about it and I'd say that the matter has been settled.
 

[Aimi]

Militarized wrote...

Javik states it was his Empires policy to fight a geurrila warfare fight though, fighting them through attrition. This plays to the Reapers advantage...which I outline in my thread that you can click in my signature.

Guerrilla warfare and attritive warfare don't mean the same thing. All warfare is fundamentally attritive; you want to kill more of the enemy, proportionately, than the enemy can kill of your own forces. Specific tactics or strategies or policies can act as force multipliers for this attritive force, but they do not redefine how war works.

Guerrilla warfare, is the extreme antithesis of the traditional force-on-force engagement. The guerrilla fighters break up their available forces into disparate groups and conceal themselves among the mass of the population, relying on ambushes and similar devices to make life uncomfortable for an occupying force that is forced to spread itself thin to control a given area. Since the Reapers ignore the civilian-military distinction and cannot be made "uncomfortable", such a policy would be worse than useless against them. Anderson, for instance, seems to be very clearly in command of organized regular military forces, not some sort of guerrilla group: several battalions take place in the assault on London, a relatively small-scale operation by modern standards but more than sufficient to render a "guerrilla" description false.

From the very fragmentary comments Javik makes, there is nothing to suggest that the Prothean military, such as it was, followed a program of asymmetric warfare against the Reapers either. He immediately follows his "attrition" description with a clarifier: "Whole worlds were sacrificed just to slow the Reapers down." That doesn't fit guerrilla warfare at all. Actually, it doesn't really indicate much of anything about the Prothean policy, just that they chose to pursue a rather extreme method of concentration of force. Which is odd, since Javik also states that there was no final battle in his cycle, meaning that whole worlds were sacrificed and the Prothean military's resources were husbanded to no apparent ultimate purpose.

[Reptilian Rob]

SandTrout wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Writers forgot.

These writers were apparently completely incompetent.

Yo dawg, I heard you don't like being killed by synthetics? So I made some synthetics/organics to kill you so you wont have to be killed by syththetics who try to ruin your organics with synthetics made by organics!

[Jake71887]

Vigil talks about what happened  with the Relays 

Modifié par Jake71887, 14 mars 2012 - 08:53 .

[Militarized]

daqs wrote...

Militarized wrote...

Javik states it was his Empires policy to fight a geurrila warfare fight though, fighting them through attrition. This plays to the Reapers advantage...which I outline in my thread that you can click in my signature.

Guerrilla warfare and attritive warfare don't mean the same thing. All warfare is fundamentally attritive; you want to kill more of the enemy, proportionately, than the enemy can kill of your own forces. Specific tactics or strategies or policies can act as force multipliers for this attritive force, but they do not redefine how war works.

Guerrilla warfare, is the extreme antithesis of the traditional force-on-force engagement. The guerrilla fighters break up their available forces into disparate groups and conceal themselves among the mass of the population, relying on ambushes and similar devices to make life uncomfortable for an occupying force that is forced to spread itself thin to control a given area. Since the Reapers ignore the civilian-military distinction and cannot be made "uncomfortable", such a policy would be worse than useless against them. Anderson, for instance, seems to be very clearly in command of organized regular military forces, not some sort of guerrilla group: several battalions take place in the assault on London, a relatively small-scale operation by modern standards but more than sufficient to render a "guerrilla" description false.

From the very fragmentary comments Javik makes, there is nothing to suggest that the Prothean military, such as it was, followed a program of asymmetric warfare against the Reapers either. He immediately follows his "attrition" description with a clarifier: "Whole worlds were sacrificed just to slow the Reapers down." That doesn't fit guerrilla warfare at all. Actually, it doesn't really indicate much of anything about the Prothean policy, just that they chose to pursue a rather extreme method of concentration of force. Which is odd, since Javik also states that there was no final battle in his cycle, meaning that whole worlds were sacrificed and the Prothean military's resources were husbanded to no apparent ultimate purpose.

It's 5 in the morning excuse me not using the exact word I meant.  Their main defense was wiped out immediatly when they came in, I'm sure by regroup he simply means going to the next planet or somewhere to just.. prepare, you know? 

Jake71887 wrote...

Vigil talks about what happened  with the Relays 

 

That's what I said he said... he doesn't say they shut them down, he immediatly follows "control of the relays" by saying they shut communication and trade down. In space communication is, from what I see in ME3 as well, a HUGE deal. They may as well have shut the relay down if you can't talk to the person on the other side to assertain any valuable information.. they're effectly cut off. Knowledge is power. 

Modifié par Militarized, 14 mars 2012 - 08:58 .

[Madecologist]

Took control off can go either way "Requiring the IFF" or as you said, kill the comm bouy and park an Angry Reaper on it. Knowing the Reapers they know their stuff, it probably even knows where a ship would come out at (predicting the drift). So a single Reaper (capitol ship class) could probably ambush even a small fleet easily.

Blockade the major transit hubs with Caps, and place Destroyer sized on smaller relays.

[Peete]

SandTrout wrote...

 
Remeber that Sovereign initially intended to use the Citadel to shut down the Relay Network so that the Reapers could isolate and sytematically destroy systems?

First of all let me say that I believe that this is a misunderstanding and that their plan was to hit the seat of government and then continue on to the other systems. I certainly don't remember Vigil or anyone else mentioning shutting down the relays.

That said I'm struck by how dangerous such a tactic is.

Lets say you're in a system that hasn't been attacked yet. If the relays go down your nr. 1 priority is to find a more effective way to travel.
Our history shows just how much we can achieve through desperation.
Once we have found a more efficient way we can then spread in all directions. The mass relays are imortant because we automatically base our entire civilisation around them. The reapers can pretty safely assume that where there are mass relays there's bound to be life. Where there aren't however, there's unlikely to be anything. Ending the mass relays changes all that.

Just my take on it.

[Militarized]

Madecologist wrote...

Took control off can go either way "Requiring the IFF" or as you said, kill the comm bouy and park an Angry Reaper on it. Knowing the Reapers they know their stuff, it probably even knows where a ship would come out at (predicting the drift). So a single Reaper (capitol ship class) could probably ambush even a small fleet easily.

Blockade the major transit hubs with Caps, and place Destroyer sized on smaller relays.

Actually.... there is a mention of the fact that the Reapers are much more accurate with their Mass Relay jumps.  

*edit* Peete that is... an outstanding point actually lol. 

Modifié par Militarized, 14 mars 2012 - 09:06 .

[Jake71887]

Militarized wrote...
That's what I said he said... he doesn't say they shut them down, he immediatly follows "control of the relays" by saying they shut communication and trade down. In space communication is, from what I see in ME3 as well, a HUGE deal. They may as well have shut the relay down if you can't talk to the person on the other side to assertain any valuable information.. they're effectly cut off. Knowledge is power. 

He actually says communication and TRANSPORTATION. Big difference.

[FaolonSD]

granyte wrote...

that ways the whole point of mass effect 1 sovreing was there to reactivate the relay manualy and deactivate the network

looks like they succeded in creating an awfull load of plot holes in so fcking little time

When you think about it, being able to create that many plotholes in such a short period of in game time, is quite an amazing feat.

[Jake71887]

Peete wrote...
First of all let me say that I believe that this is a misunderstanding and that their plan was to hit the seat of government and then continue on to the other systems. I certainly don't remember Vigil or anyone else mentioning shutting down the relays.

That said I'm struck by how dangerous such a tactic is.

Lets say you're in a system that hasn't been attacked yet. If the relays go down your nr. 1 priority is to find a more effective way to travel.
Our history shows just how much we can achieve through desperation.
Once we have found a more efficient way we can then spread in all directions. The mass relays are imortant because we automatically base our entire civilisation around them. The reapers can pretty safely assume that where there are mass relays there's bound to be life. Where there aren't however, there's unlikely to be anything. Ending the mass relays changes all that.

Just my take on it.

Any records of colonies, no matter where they were, that were on the Citadel, would be in reaper hands.

[Militarized]

Jake71887 wrote...

Militarized wrote...
That's what I said he said... he doesn't say they shut them down, he immediatly follows "control of the relays" by saying they shut communication and trade down. In space communication is, from what I see in ME3 as well, a HUGE deal. They may as well have shut the relay down if you can't talk to the person on the other side to assertain any valuable information.. they're effectly cut off. Knowledge is power. 

He actually says communication and TRANSPORTATION. Big difference.

Woops.. still, they'd still be blocking transportation with a blockade. 

[iSpitfireee]

Only sovereign could do that, he tried and died.

[Jake71887]

Militarized wrote...

Jake71887 wrote...

Militarized wrote...
That's what I said he said... he doesn't say they shut them down, he immediatly follows "control of the relays" by saying they shut communication and trade down. In space communication is, from what I see in ME3 as well, a HUGE deal. They may as well have shut the relay down if you can't talk to the person on the other side to assertain any valuable information.. they're effectly cut off. Knowledge is power. 

He actually says communication and TRANSPORTATION. Big difference.

Woops.. still, they'd still be blocking transportation with a blockade. 

A blockade is not nearly as effective as rendering a route completely inert. Han Solo can testify to that.

[Arios1570]

Saren had to give control to Sovreign. Without someone on the inside, they can't shut down the network.

[Peete]

Jake71887 wrote...

Peete wrote...
First of all let me say that I believe that this is a misunderstanding and that their plan was to hit the seat of government and then continue on to the other systems. I certainly don't remember Vigil or anyone else mentioning shutting down the relays.

That said I'm struck by how dangerous such a tactic is.

Lets say you're in a system that hasn't been attacked yet. If the relays go down your nr. 1 priority is to find a more effective way to travel.
Our history shows just how much we can achieve through desperation.
Once we have found a more efficient way we can then spread in all directions. The mass relays are imortant because we automatically base our entire civilisation around them. The reapers can pretty safely assume that where there are mass relays there's bound to be life. Where there aren't however, there's unlikely to be anything. Ending the mass relays changes all that.

Just my take on it.

Any records of colonies, no matter where they were, that were on the Citadel, would be in reaper hands.

Yes but after the mass relays go down, ergo after the citadel is taken finding another means to travel is the nr. 1 prority. 
If this is found, and remember there are many cycles so many chances of this happening, they can then spread everywhere. Suddenly the reapers are not just left with the task of going to a few specific points and then wiping these clean; they have an enitre galaxy to scrub clean. 

Modifié par Peete, 14 mars 2012 - 09:16 .

[111987]

I'm telling you guys, go with the IFF explanation. It's entirely plausible and I would say even likely, considering other tech from the Normandy was taken by the Alliance.

[goofyomnivore]

Saren had to give control to Sovreign. Without someone on the inside, they can't shut down the network.

Illusive Man? Random Indoctrinated Person #34595? Either could of worked.

[zimm2142]

 Space Magic:wizard:

[Peete]

111987 wrote...

I'm telling you guys, go with the IFF explanation. It's entirely plausible and I would say even likely, considering other tech from the Normandy was taken by the Alliance.

But is it mentioned anywhere in ME3?

[QuarianHIV]

This is why proper handover of work is important.

When the script got passed from Drew to Mac some pages dropped off and no one cared.

[Militarized]

Jake71887 wrote...

Militarized wrote...

Jake71887 wrote...

Militarized wrote...
That's what I said he said... he doesn't say they shut them down, he immediatly follows "control of the relays" by saying they shut communication and trade down. In space communication is, from what I see in ME3 as well, a HUGE deal. They may as well have shut the relay down if you can't talk to the person on the other side to assertain any valuable information.. they're effectly cut off. Knowledge is power. 

He actually says communication and TRANSPORTATION. Big difference.

Woops.. still, they'd still be blocking transportation with a blockade. 

A blockade is not nearly as effective as rendering a route completely inert. Han Solo can testify to that.

No it isn't... but we have no concept of how long it takes to shutdown/bootup said relay and we have no idea what their overarching plan is. Maybe THEY need the relay open for something we don't understand. As I said before though, I'm fairly sure our cycle was doing something unprecedented and they left it open for a reason. 

Modifié par Militarized, 14 mars 2012 - 09:20 .

[Jake71887]

Peete wrote...
Yes but after the mass relays go down, ergo after the citadel is taken finding another means to travel is the nr. 1 prority. 
If this is found, and remember there are many cycles so many chances of this happening, they can then spread everywhere. Suddenly the reapers are not just left with the task of going to a few specific points and then wiping these clean; they have an enitre galaxy to scrub clean. 

Some sites could escape(Like Ilos did), but the majority of people wouldn't know "Why" the relays were down till the reapers attacked... So why would the wander? Sure some would go off and try to make contact(Probably run out of fuel and drift in space till they died), but what reason would there be to colonize?

Now you could argue refugees could flee after a reaper attack, but both indoctrination, records, and the fuel problem means this isn't very viable. 

[Jake71887]

Militarized wrote...

No it isn't... but we have no concept of how long it takes to shutdown/bootup said relay and we have no idea what their overarching plan is. Maybe THEY need the relay open for something we don't understand. As I said before though, I'm fairly sure our cycle was doing something unprecedented. 

Of course we were doing soemthing unprecedented, we had foreknowledge, and a galaxy capable of uniting.... But it's been established shutting down relay use is standard procedure for reapers during an invasion, hence.. Why didn't they?

[Militarized]

Jake71887 wrote...

Peete wrote...
Yes but after the mass relays go down, ergo after the citadel is taken finding another means to travel is the nr. 1 prority. 
If this is found, and remember there are many cycles so many chances of this happening, they can then spread everywhere. Suddenly the reapers are not just left with the task of going to a few specific points and then wiping these clean; they have an enitre galaxy to scrub clean. 

Some sites could escape(Like Ilos did), but the majority of people wouldn't know "Why" the relays were down till the reapers attacked... So why would the wander? Sure some would go off and try to make contact(Probably run out of fuel and drift in space till they died), but what reason would there be to colonize?

Now you could argue refugees could flee after a reaper attack, but both indoctrination, records, and the fuel problem means this isn't very viable. 

They don't actually run out of fuel in game doesnt represent it very well but... most ships just discharge their magnetic build up into a planets atmosphere from their core don't they? Then they go on their merry way. 

Jake71887 wrote...

Militarized wrote...

No it isn't... but we have no concept of how long it takes to shutdown/bootup said relay and we have no idea what their overarching plan is. Maybe THEY need the relay open for something we don't understand. As I said before though, I'm fairly sure our cycle was doing something unprecedented. 

Of course we were doing soemthing unprecedented, we had foreknowledge, and a galaxy capable of uniting.... But it's been established shutting down relay use is standard procedure for reapers during an invasion, hence.. Why didn't they?

  

We're just going to keep arguing over semantics I guess, you say shut down I say control and by control I mean blockades and power of information. 

Modifié par Militarized, 14 mars 2012 - 09:22 .