205 réponses à ce sujet

[Jake71887]

Nefelius wrote...

If the Protheans altered the ability to lock-off all the Relays, then Why did Sovereign even tried to activate it MANUALLY.
The fact that Sovereign did try leads to the conclusion that this ability is still intact.

TBH my entire walkthrough i was wandering what am i doing at the citadel? How come it still belongs to us?? It's the main point of the Reapers plan, yet they do not bother themselves to wipe everything there and proceed with their plan that...um.... THEY REPEATED FOR BILLIONs OF YEARS.

The protheans interfered with the Keepers ability to receive the reaper's signal... The Reapers could still control the citadel and relays, they just could send the signal remotely to have the keepers unlock the citadel as a mass relay.

[Apocsapel91]

I can't believe I didn't realize that... I guess I've just been so preoccupied with the ending being... well... what it is.

[Nefelius]

Jake71887 wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

If the Protheans altered the ability to lock-off all the Relays, then Why did Sovereign even tried to activate it MANUALLY.
The fact that Sovereign did try leads to the conclusion that this ability is still intact.

TBH my entire walkthrough i was wandering what am i doing at the citadel? How come it still belongs to us?? It's the main point of the Reapers plan, yet they do not bother themselves to wipe everything there and proceed with their plan that...um.... THEY REPEATED FOR BILLIONs OF YEARS.

The protheans interfered with the Keepers ability to receive the reaper's signal... The Reapers could still control the citadel and relays, they just could send the signal remotely to have the keepers unlock the citadel as a mass relay.

Exactly. What the Prothys did altered the keepers thus ensuring they won't receive the signal. Sovereign tried to activate it manually. We stopped him.


And then when the whole Reaper armada invades, suddenly none of them bothers to control it. As it never was their plan all along. And they were not DOING IT FOR FREAKING COUNTLESS TIMES.

Modifié par Nefelius, 14 mars 2012 - 02:46 .

[blah64]

Jake71887 wrote...

merylisk wrote...

But didn't the Protheans shut down that protocol? Hence why Sovereign couldn't just pop in and do that in the first place? Just cause the Reapers can move it doesn't mean they fixed that, too.

They shut down the keeper's ability to receive the signal, Sovereign(And I imagine other reapers) could take control manually.

Exactly. Saren went in during game 1 to do just this. All the reapers would need was one indictrinated servant to do it again.

[Atarun]

Nefelius wrote...
Exactly. What the Prothys did altered the keepers thus ensuring they won't receive the signal. Sovereign tried to activate it manually. We stopped him.


And then when the whole Reaper armada invades, suddenly none of them bothers to control it. As it never was their plan all along. And they were not DOING IT FOR FREAKING COUNTLESS TIMES.

My understanding of it was:
- the Reapers' plan was to start the invasion through the Citadel
-t hey were blocked from it by who knows what (Protheans make no sense, since they lost the Citadel long before they went extinct, so the Reapers had all the time in the world to fix whatever they did in there)
- Sovereign was sent alone to fix the Citadel (because evil always sends warnings and baddies always come one by one, at least at first)
- Sovereign failed (whole point of ME1), so they switched to plan B and started their systematic invasion by the Terminus Systems - through the Omega-4 Relay - instead of the Citadel
- Reborn Shepard delayed that plan somewhat by destroying the Collector Base
- Six months later, the Reapers have dropped all pretense of stealth and caution, are all out of dark space and busy harvesting every civilization under the sun (thankfully, thresher maws do not count as a civilization, 'cause they'd be PWND)
- The whole galaxy FINALLY listens to Shepard and unites against the Reapers
- The indoctrinated Illusive Man tells the Reapers about the Crucible (it makes very little sense for the Reapers to be surprised by that info, as the project has been put in place every 50k years for who knows how long)
- The Reapers invade the Citadel and move it to Earth... ... ... because the whole pitch of ME3 is "Take Back the Earth"? That'd be my guess...

So, by the time the Reapers take back the Citadel, they don't need it anymore (in the way they did in their original plan), because they've already traveled all the way from dark space (wherever that is) to the Milky Way.

Oh my, I see holes, am I hallucinating? 

[Andur4]

The more holes we find the more the ending sequence looks like Swiss cheese.

[Aedan276]

SandTrout wrote...

 Sorry to do this, but I may have just realized that there is One Plot Hole to Rule them all, and really just nails the coffin shut on ME3 as just utter incompotence in the plot. Then again, with as fast as this forum is moving right now, this idea may have just been buried with uncanny speed. Here goes.

Remeber that Sovereign initially intended to use the Citadel to shut down the Relay Network so that the Reapers could isolate and sytematically destroy systems?

Well, the Reapers had such full control over the Citadel that they could move it to the Sol system, yet they didn't even think to do that, and allowed the massive fleet and Crucible to engage their force.

I'm sorry, but I now must simply write off the ending as they actually thought that it was good and couldn't come up with anything better. I'm not sure why I didn't see it sooner, but I'd chalk it up to the pacing of the game followed by the trauma of the ending. I can't even write this one off as potential Hallucination fodder because it happens too early.

Serriously, the more I think about this game, the worse I realize the plot was. I guess I was just distracted by the pretty lights before to not notice the holes, but this really is turning out to be inexcusable, to the point of being irredeemable for me. The writing of the Characters was generally good to great, but the plot just unravels more and more as you inspect it.

Maybe I'll feel better in the morning.

That killed your hope? 

Sure, its a plot hole, but glaring plot holes can be overlooked if player choice is respected. 

The most important thing is Shepard is a cool person in cool places doing cool stuff. 

[FlyinElk212]

WWWOOOOOWWWWW...

Okay, you know what, I was one of the few that accepted the ending for what it is, but after this revelation, I gotta say...this is pretty unacceptable. I refuse to believe that the all-powerful Reapers were THAT stupid to overlook that...

...unless the Reapers PURPOSELY wanted someone to help in the creation of the Crucible, in order to finish the Catalyst in an attempt to Synthesize all life...

............which would give them a 66% chance of being utterly destroyed (Control, Destroy). *facepalm*

[Jake71887]

Atarun wrote...

My understanding of it was:
- the Reapers' plan was to start the invasion through the Citadel
-t hey were blocked from it by who knows what (Protheans make no sense, since they lost the Citadel long before they went extinct, so the Reapers had all the time in the world to fix whatever they did in there)
- Sovereign was sent alone to fix the Citadel (because evil always sends warnings and baddies always come one by one, at least at first)
- Sovereign failed (whole point of ME1), so they switched to plan B and started their systematic invasion by the Terminus Systems - through the Omega-4 Relay - instead of the Citadel
- Reborn Shepard delayed that plan somewhat by destroying the Collector Base
- Six months later, the Reapers have dropped all pretense of stealth and caution, are all out of dark space and busy harvesting every civilization under the sun (thankfully, thresher maws do not count as a civilization, 'cause they'd be PWND)
- The whole galaxy FINALLY listens to Shepard and unites against the Reapers
- The indoctrinated Illusive Man tells the Reapers about the Crucible (it makes very little sense for the Reapers to be surprised by that info, as the project has been put in place every 50k years for who knows how long)
- The Reapers invade the Citadel and move it to Earth... ... ... because the whole pitch of ME3 is "Take Back the Earth"? That'd be my guess...

So, by the time the Reapers take back the Citadel, they don't need it anymore (in the way they did in their original plan), because they've already traveled all the way from dark space (wherever that is) to the Milky Way.

Oh my, I see holes, am I hallucinating? 

The citadel is a relay, that's activated when the keepers receive a signal from the reapers, that's why they were blocked. 

They invaded the terminus systems through the batarian relay(Don't recall the relay's name), the whole premise of the second game was stopping the collectors from harvesting humans and making a human reaper. Arrival focused on the reaper invasion. 

But the rest seems right 

Modifié par Jake71887, 14 mars 2012 - 03:16 .

[Candidate 88766]

That is a pretty massive plot hole. If they had enough control of the Citadel to close the arms, they had enough control to use its primary function - that of controlling the Relays.

Why, for that matter, didn't they put a huge number of Reapers around the Charon Relay. If they knew a fleet was on the way, why give it time to prepare? If the Reapers attack them the moment they arrive at the Relay's exit, they won't have time to organise themselves and will be decimated.

I would've been able to overlook this though if the endings had been satisfying.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 14 mars 2012 - 03:23 .

[Meltemph]

Umm, watching that video, Joker clearly says "unlock the relays to the citadel"... All we know is that taking control of the citadel relay locks the relay to the citadel... Which would make sense, since transportation, communication and ect would be cut off, form the citadel.

[dreaming_raithe]

Not that I really buy it, but if the indoctrination/hallucination theory is actually true, they basically *did* shut down all the relays at the end of the game. And not only that: a large majority of their resistance is all in one place, conveniently ready to be obliterated with no means of escape.

But I seriously doubt that's what the writers were thinking. They probably just forgot.

[Der Estr Bune]

Why don't we just assume the current Cycle changed the ability to do that? We knew it was possible after #1, and clearly some of the Citadel has been retooled in the last 2 1/2 years. For all we know, the races got together and said, "His stated goal was to do this thing. We should probably make sure that can't happen".

How did they do it? I'm not sure that matters, and if it does, it's another issue entirely.

[Leafs43]

I believe in Mass Effect 1 you figured out how to interrupt the reapers ability to do so. Something with a signal to the keepers.


So in the end, the reapers lost control of the mass relays.

[Meshaber]

I think we've been misinterpreting the idea that the reapers ever shut down the relays. Javik talks about sacrificing entire worlds to slow the reapers down a little while the protheans regroup, clearly not a strategy that would've worked if they couldn't use the relays.

[Dusty Boy T]

...dammit.
Now I'm just more depressed than I was before. No amount of DLC shall fix this hole in my heart now...

[Atarun]

Jake71887 wrote...
The citadel is a relay, that's activated when the keepers receive a signal from the reapers, that's why they were blocked.

Yes, I know. That's what I meant by "invading through the Citadel". As in "through the Citadel relay".
Once that plan was undone (in ME1), they were left with... all other relays. And in the end it only delayed them what? 2 years and a half? Three years?

A lot of people are complaining about the Reapers taking control of the Citadel as being a plot hole. "If they can teleport/close/use the Citadel, then why did they not do it before?" Well, they took control of the Citadel right after the Illusive Man told them about the Crucible. That much is explicit. Taking control means you didn't have that control beforehand. I don't see a hole there.

I see holes in lots of other places however... 

[SandTrout]

Aedan276 wrote...

That killed your hope? 

Sure, its a plot hole, but glaring plot holes can be overlooked if player choice is respected. 

The most important thing is Shepard is a cool person in cool places doing cool stuff. 

It killed my hope that this was some sort of PR stunt and that they have a well-written ending up their sleeve, or that they might be able to create one if we pushed them for it.

No, its not just the ending that they screwed up. They've been screwing up the plot since the MacGuffin was introduced, thoroughly and consistantly.

[SandTrout]

Atarun wrote...

Yes, I know. That's what I meant by "invading through the Citadel". As in "through the Citadel relay".
Once that plan was undone (in ME1), they were left with... all other relays. And in the end it only delayed them what? 2 years and a half? Three years?

A lot of people are complaining about the Reapers taking control of the Citadel as being a plot hole. "If they can teleport/close/use the Citadel, then why did they not do it before?" Well, they took control of the Citadel right after the Illusive Man told them about the Crucible. That much is explicit. Taking control means you didn't have that control beforehand. I don't see a hole there.

I see holes in lots of other places however... 

The point is not the Citadel's Relay function. The point is that the Citadel can, and has in the past, been used to disable the other Relays, yet the Reapers didn't use it to prevent the fleet and cruicible from getting through the Charon Relay.

Remember that Saren Shut Off the relays around the Citadel to prevent the 5th Fleet from reinforcing until Shepard intervened.

[Militarized]

I still say, after sleeping on it... this can be over looked to just move the story along XD. Doesn't Hackett say the fleets are gathering near Sol before all the relays get shut down also?

[Lethys1]

SandTrout wrote...

 Sorry to do this, but I may have just realized that there is One Plot Hole to Rule them all, and really just nails the coffin shut on ME3 as just utter incompotence in the plot. Then again, with as fast as this forum is moving right now, this idea may have just been buried with uncanny speed. Here goes.

Remeber that Sovereign initially intended to use the Citadel to shut down the Relay Network so that the Reapers could isolate and sytematically destroy systems?

Well, the Reapers had such full control over the Citadel that they could move it to the Sol system, yet they didn't even think to do that, and allowed the massive fleet and Crucible to engage their force.

I'm sorry, but I now must simply write off the ending as they actually thought that it was good and couldn't come up with anything better. I'm not sure why I didn't see it sooner, but I'd chalk it up to the pacing of the game followed by the trauma of the ending. I can't even write this one off as potential Hallucination fodder because it happens too early.

Serriously, the more I think about this game, the worse I realize the plot was. I guess I was just distracted by the pretty lights before to not notice the holes, but this really is turning out to be inexcusable, to the point of being irredeemable for me. The writing of the Characters was generally good to great, but the plot just unravels more and more as you inspect it.

Maybe I'll feel better in the morning.

This is the first point that's been brought up where I think even the writers themselves would consider this an oversight....they're too proud to address the other issues IMO and would create new excuses for them.  This is just too glaring, however, since the entire plot of ME1 was based around this concept.

[Zyrious]

Umbrellamage wrote...

Militarized wrote...

Wait, your sentences read a little jumbled what exactly is your plot hole?

Basically that part of sovereign's plan was to shut down the mass relays via the citadel.

Reapers get the citadel, move it to earth, and don't think to shut down the relays.

Best I can come up with was that when they moved it to earth they just didn't care any more, they felt they had won, and had no idea about the crucible.

They move the citadel BECAUSE they find out about the crucible. Pretty big plot-hole. I brought it up before but i think people missed it. In ME1 a pretty big thing was that the reapers not only used the citadel as a relay, but use it to shut down all the relays.

The funny thing is, is that the crucible takes advantage of that programming, the ability to control all the relays, to use them against the reapers. So the writers remembered it...they just..kind of...ignored it...

[Arokel]

This is an interesting question. The problem is they didn't tell us how they moved it. Until we know that I don't think we can dismiss it as a plot hole.

[Urumashi]

 (dunno if someone's said this yet) based on the ending provided by using the crucible (and destroying all relays by fireing it) isnt it rather blatantly possible that the citadel only holds the ability to destroy said relays if the crucible is attached, i.e. the reapers we're planning on letting the crucible through so they could use it to destroy said relays? Since the space child controlls the reapers and the space child forces shep to make the decision to fire it, it wouldnt exactly be a stretch to assume this.

[Ryan546]

The universal laws of space magic clearly prevents that from happening