128 réponses à ce sujet

[Aracid]

I love Sten's racist remarks of the elves, it's too funny... Really.... x]



On the main topic, I have mixed feelings about Morrigan. If the option to kill her was there I would do so actually... though she does make a very powerful ally.

[Korva]

I tried to give Morrigan a chance, like with the other party members. I gave her the first tome, then (reluctantly) killed Flemeth and gave Morrigan the grimoire too. Hell, I even backtracked to Orzammar for the damn golden mirror. Yes, her awkward admission of friendship was somewhat touching. But if I softened up to her just a tiny bit, the endgame sure threw that out the window at Warp Ten.

So much for friendship. I hate the disgusting power-mad little b*tch with a passion, and seriously wish you could gut here there and then. Or earlier. I seriously regret breaking character to be nice to her and give her the damn tomes, just to see if there was something in her which I as a player could connect to. No dice. When I replay the game, it will be with less goody-goody characters than this paladin-like human warrior, and they sure will not give Morrigan the time of day for even a second.

I like strong women. And I liked Morrigan's line about men and what they think about women -- it seems dead-on for how many men treat women. But "strong" as in strong-willed and independent isn't worth crap without a decent personality. Morrigan is utterly unsympathetic, and extremely stupid about many things. Far as I'm concerned, Flemeth is welcome to shred her soul.

[Jahannam]

Just my opinion...I dont think Morrigan was Morrigan after Flemeth was dead. I think Flemeth played a big game and after she died Morrigan was Flemeth. The grimore ect was all part of the plan. Flemeth was twisting people for centuries.



You thought you were helping Morrigan, so did Morrigan...but in the end the winner was Flemeth.

[Korva]

That is quite possible, yes. Though I also wondered if the crow sitting in the rafters during the Landsmeet might be Flemeth. It was rather odd for the camera to pan up and focus on that bird.

[Jahannam]

Korva wrote...

That is quite possible, yes. Though I also wondered if the crow sitting in the rafters during the Landsmeet might be Flemeth. It was rather odd for the camera to pan up and focus on that bird.

I noticed that too. Guess we will have to wait and see what the bioware people have planned.

[nuculerman]

Jahannam wrote...

Just my opinion...I dont think Morrigan was Morrigan after Flemeth was dead. I think Flemeth played a big game and after she died Morrigan was Flemeth. The grimore ect was all part of the plan. Flemeth was twisting people for centuries.

You thought you were helping Morrigan, so did Morrigan...but in the end the winner was Flemeth.

The only problem with that theory is that Morrigan acts exactly the same whether you kill Flemeth, whether you just take the Grimoire to her, or whether you ignore the quest completely.  In fact, if you just take her the Grimoire the epilogue suggests she wasn't Flemeth..

Personally I'm a fan of Morrigan and her intelligence.  Yeah, she's kind of a b****, but you, her and Sten are the only ones that know you are being lied to in the Fade.  Sten wants to stay because he's such a big fan of punishing himself, but Morrigan seems to have just enjoyed talking to a demon.  And when you finally confront the Sloth, Wynne says something like "you can't stop us, we all found each other in this place."  Umm....  No you didn't, Wynne.  I found all of you.  Me.  It's all me.  Again.  In fact, I should probably solo this demon because you're an idiot.  Meanwhile, Morrigan doesn't make any such claim.  She just tells the demon it made a very powerful enemy: her.

Morrigan is awesome.  For the people that claim she's not evil, you're slightly wrong.  First of all, she wants to kill every mage in the circle.  Not because it's easier, just because she wants to put them out of their misery of being weak.  That's not neutral.  Second, she wants to kill all the Dalish elves in the camp.  Not because she thinks Werewolves are better allies against the Blight, but because she thinks it's funny.  That's not neutral.  Sure, she's closer to neutral than evil on the imaginary good/evil bar we've all imagined, but she's definitely not the unbiased, chaotic neutral woman most Morrigan supporters try to make her out to be.  Despite all that, she still has some of the best dialogue in the game, she's by far the most powerful member of your party besides the PC, and she helps you and Allistair live on past the Archdemon.  So to Morrigan; we salute you.

[Jahannam]

When you kill flemeth you go in and get..

Robes of possesion. Go figure. And do you think Morrigan would  act different? No...she would act just as usual. Flemeth had hundreds of years to perfect her "game". Oh no's the dialouge didnt change it must be the same person. Not.

Modifié par Jahannam, 06 décembre 2009 - 01:57 .

[Giygas Starman]

Morrigan is a foul, vile meanie but as soon as you... get on her good graces she will show you her innocent and childish girlie girl side. You WILL (grrr!) enjoy those times her heart of ice melts a little, especially when you give her a special item (no, not the grimoire) and she really loose her cynical defenses.



But as long as you will just have her there, not wanting to befriending her for various reasons, then she will always be "The B-witch" and can even become witchier when you ****** her off by telling her of her B-witchyness...

[Ferocious7]

i was able to romance her to 100% talk about love (can't do it too soon, gotta wait til after you slept together) and if you ask her to sleep with you, she is all giddy and stuff when u talk to her.. but she says no if you choose the first line, if you choose "get to the tent woman" or something like that, she will still sleep with u every time... LOL so u can have the "love" part with her being all nice and giddy AND still get some

although I found in my female playthrough, I liked Leliana's romance better... her voice was more soothing than morrigan's... but i do like both characters, both were very well done. Morrigan just wants you to take control and not agree with everything she says, only certain things. You gotta learn the characters well and know how to play their cards right to get max approvals with everyone as fast as possible, and having a high persuasion can really help sometimes depending on decisions you make, as well as certain characters can turn on you if u make a choice they are completely against and they are in the party LOL... although I usually beat them and reload, except Shale I just don't take along for that part and persuade my way out of it to gain approval and not lose her as a party member as well as activate a quest if I side with that certain someone during that other quest in orzammar.. same with leliana during the urn quest, although I never stick with that "choice", I tried it once and reloaded because I didn't like it anyway, I just wanted to see how it went, then i reloaded and did it the more "respectful" way being I don't like making evil characters.. who wants to run around being a total ***hole the entire time, there's enough of them in the game to fill that void no need to have to run one around the whole time... although some dialogue options are just too funny not to try out throughout the game

Modifié par Ferocious7, 06 décembre 2009 - 02:27 .

[Rimath]

Morrigan's rules of life: Survival is rule number 1.  Rule2:  Power.  These to her are constants in her life which
is what the Wilds have taught her.  This is basic survival to her.  She needs power to survive whatever is thrown at her.  She has no room for second guessing.  She is more entwined with basic instincts then the normal person. 

That is how her reasoning works and is applied to others. She sees the mages as people who deny themselves power, and practically live in slaves to the dictates the Chantry put on them. She sees it as a mercy to kill the circle mages. She respects Sten for his strength and maybe his honor for what I can judge of his character. She does not respect Allistar because he puts his life in the hands of others and complains WAY too much. I swear he needs to grow a pair. Up till Lothering Alistar seemed decent, after that, it was either whining or doom and gloom. That guy does not have one positive outlook about life, and he was just making it worse on himself with his own actions.

Lilianna was not bad till I romanced her and got the stupid giggles when I had to click on her to open locked treasure chests. Other than that she is just a tad too religious but over all a very caring person and not a bad girl to have in your corner.
Shale was cool and interesting and Oghrem or however you spell his name was a roll your eyes comic relief. Zevren at least you knew where he stood considering his background so you knew how to keep him under control and hopefully not turn on you, though some of his stories were interesting when you asked about his life experiences as an assassin.

Back to the topic once Morrigan starts to open up she is seeing life in a new view however she will not forsake what she learned in her life experiences. My only speculation on her and having the baby is that she wanted to preserve and possibly control the power that the child she will bare with the old gods soul in it. As of right now the baby will not be corrupted as from my understanding the darkspawn are what corrupted the old gods in the first place to make them the Archdemon. My only concern then is when the dark spawn search out the kid and it now will have human intelligence instead of the instincts of a dragon god. Her other motivation besides power is that she as either your friend or sees you as a person she loves and does not wish you to die. I have not yet seen the story in where I refuse the ritual, but she could be angry at you for refusing her help when she was trying to save your life as the only way she could come up with. She probably felt you would be the one to try to strike the final blow to kill the Archdemon. If you were not playing the honorable type and barely liked you then I would say it is just about controlling power of an old gods soul.

Modifié par Rimath, 06 décembre 2009 - 07:04 .

[EJ42]

This makes me laugh. For the guys who dislike Morrigan, I suppose you want an obedient little toy to fawn over you all day long. Get over it.

Morrigan has grown up under mostly intolerable conditions. She's damaged psychologically. If you feel that she's not worth your trouble, then I worry about your ability to deal with real women.

[Korva]

Nonsensical false dichotomy. Loathing self-absorbed power freaks who never have a kind word for even the people who save their fancy little arse every day is far from wanting everyone to be a doormat. I strongly dislike malleable-as-clay NPCs. But I hate intolerably selfish ego-wankers too, and Morrigan definitely qualifies. Psychologically damaged? So are (sadly true to form for a Bioware game) most of the other companions and probably the protagonist, as well. Yet most of them are at least tolerable, or smart enough to pretend to be tolerable.

Seriously, when I look at the dirty proposal she makes before the final battle, she is definitely showing her true colors in a way that made me regret breaking character earlier to be nice to her although she gives ZERO reason to do that, just to see if there was anything sympathetic in her. And her offer (or rather: demand) is manipulative to the point of emotional abuse. If there was an option to gut her then and there, I would pick it instantly. Makes no sense to let that freak walk away.

[JaegerBane]

EJ42 wrote...

This makes me laugh. For the guys who dislike Morrigan, I suppose you want an obedient little toy to fawn over you all day long. Get over it.
Morrigan has grown up under mostly intolerable conditions. She's damaged psychologically. If you feel that she's not worth your trouble, then I worry about your ability to deal with real women.

Not so much. I just want a team mate who can think things through before blurting them out. Morrigan only thinks ahead as far as a 6-year-old would. This is one of the reasons I went for Leliana. I assumed both women were roughly the same age, but in terms of maturity Leliana is decades ahead of Morrigan.

[Phil5000]

You feel the same way about her as I do about George Costanza from that old Seinfeld show. Brilliant character, superbly played by the actor... but I just can't freaking stand him.

As for Morrigan, I believe I'd like her less if it wasn't for her outfit.

[Hoffneous001]

the things Morrigan and big AL say to each other make it worth having them both together in a party...

[Hoffneous001]

Jahannam wrote...

Korva wrote...

That is quite possible, yes. Though I also wondered if the crow sitting in the rafters during the Landsmeet might be Flemeth. It was rather odd for the camera to pan up and focus on that bird.

I noticed that too. Guess we will have to wait and see what the bioware people have planned.

The crow traditionaly has been the harold of death... and the landsmeet could end in no other way... something dying.

[EJ42]

JaegerBane wrote...

EJ42 wrote...

This makes me laugh. For the guys who dislike Morrigan, I suppose you want an obedient little toy to fawn over you all day long. Get over it.
Morrigan has grown up under mostly intolerable conditions. She's damaged psychologically. If you feel that she's not worth your trouble, then I worry about your ability to deal with real women.

Not so much. I just want a team mate who can think things through before blurting them out. Morrigan only thinks ahead as far as a 6-year-old would. This is one of the reasons I went for Leliana. I assumed both women were roughly the same age, but in terms of maturity Leliana is decades ahead of Morrigan.

What makes you think she doesn't think things through before "blurting" them out?

She has a very clear view of how the world works.  Everything is very simple.  You and others like you cannot see it for what it really is, and think it is somehow more complicated.  When the world is black and white, it doesn't take much deliberation to tell which bucket to drop the marble into.

Morrigan is very self-reliant.  She has no patience for others who are not.  I get the impression that, were she alive today, she would advocate removing all warning labels from everything, and making the penalty, for filing a personal injury lawsuit, death.

She knows what she likes, and she knows what is the "right" thing to do in any situation.  Perhaps you would prefer a woman who wants to stare at a menu for half an hour before deciding what to order.  Morrigan would sit down, ignore the menu, tell the waiter exactly what to bring her, and simply glare at him/her until her requirements were met.

[Armiece]

EJ42 wrote...


She knows what she likes, and she knows what is the "right" thing to do in any situation.  Perhaps you would prefer a woman who wants to stare at a menu for half an hour before deciding what to order.  Morrigan would sit down, ignore the menu, tell the waiter exactly what to bring her, and simply glare at him/her until her requirements were met.

So she's a spoiled brat who thinks acting like an entitled **** will make the world bend to her will? HOT! What thinking man could resist?

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Korva wrote...

Seriously, when I look at the dirty proposal she makes before the final battle, she is definitely showing her true colors in a way that made me regret breaking character earlier to be nice to her although she gives ZERO reason to do that, just to see if there was anything sympathetic in her. And her offer (or rather: demand) is manipulative to the point of emotional abuse. If there was an option to gut her then and there, I would pick it instantly. Makes no sense to let that freak walk away.

While it is true, Morrigan had a goal from the very beginning. She wasn't show her "true colors" exactly, if you actually did continue the romance and was a bit less judgemental, you'd realize that indeed she does think of you as a lover or a friend. Depending on what you do. 

When I refused her offer, she got angry that at me. Not because I wouldn't go through her plan, but because I was going to throw away my life willingly for my pride. Then she specifically said this as she left and I asked her not to:

"Fare you well, my friend. I do what I must, now, and so shall you"

If you do agree to go through with the deal and have the child with her, right before you begin the siege of Denerim she reminds you that after all of this is over she will leave. If you select "Well than thank you for all that you have done" she says she would have done more for you, if you were two different people or at a different place. Then she says that if there was one thing she could say it is, that she was foolish but also can't come to regret what happened between you two and that she will always remember you my love.

I doubt that wasn't said out of sincerity, since she had all that she wanted.

Morrigan's character has faults in the sense of how she too consistently disapproves of any altruistic act. But at the same time, I really liked the character and I understand her nature and purpose in the plot. She was raised by Flemeth with absolutely no social skills because Flemeth only wanted her as a new vessel. No point in teaching her things like kindness, trust, respect, etc. 

Morrigan may be manipulative, but she isn't truly a bad person. Just was raised by an abomination.

As for the insistence that after killing Flemeth it is no longer Morrigan but the Witch, it is possible but I see no reason why anyone insists it is so. No changes occur in the dialogue and some things Morrigan says aren't what she should say if indeed Flemeth possessed her.

Flemeth probably isn't actually dead, but I think she needs more power before she possesses Morrigan through the robes... which by then Morrigan probably would have figured out the purpose of the outfit and/or a way to stop Flemeth.

[YR_Lim]

Crow could be flemeth in shapeshift.

[Love-Buzz]

I can understand why people hate her (especially women), but sort of like Viconia in BG2, I really enjoyed trying to find the good in her. While I never had the resolution I wanted, the bit of epilogue I got for clinging to my hopes was, dare I say it, a little touching, and has been far more resonant than any endings I've gotten since.

Modifié par Love-Buzz, 07 décembre 2009 - 09:45 .

[Messor8914]

Jahannam wrote...

Just my opinion...I dont think Morrigan was Morrigan after Flemeth was dead. I think Flemeth played a big game and after she died Morrigan was Flemeth. The grimore ect was all part of the plan. Flemeth was twisting people for centuries.

You thought you were helping Morrigan, so did Morrigan...but in the end the winner was Flemeth.

I really agree with that. I guess i wasn't the only one to notice that.

[Korva]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

When I refused her offer, she got angry that at me. Not because I wouldn't go through her plan, but because I was going to throw away my life willingly for my pride.

See, I had the exact opposite impression. She's manipulative in the extreme in the whole seen, calculating, trying to push all the buttons she can think of. First she tries to appeal to the Warden's ego, and when that does not work, she accuses her of being "selfish". She pretends she cares, then says she doesn't. She constantly disapproves of any tender feelings, then tries to use the Warden's love for, in my case, Leliana as emotional blackmail.

That is not the behavior of a friend, and it certainly is not credible for a second. Not to mention how rude she is to other companions who are, potentially, very close to the Warden, and dismissive of gaining much-needed allies. She doesn't give anything positive to anyone that I noticed, ever, is nothing but a source of insults and tensions and a lot of potential trouble. And I don't buy the excuse that she doesn't know better, because she has spent some time observing how people act and is not stupid.

It's utterly meaningless to me that she eventually says some nice words if you bend over backwards for her the whole game and don't care how she treats everyone else. As a player I can be very supportive towards NPCs who make at least a small effort to show they're worth it (though some of my characters aren't so kind). Morrigan doesn't. Getting her friendship-admission isn't possible for me without totally breaking character and metagaming. I did that once and felt crap about it, and in the end she wasn't even worth it.

Morrigan may be manipulative, but she isn't truly a bad person.

I disagree. Being manipulative, arrogant, egotistical and opposed to altruism or other acts of kindness does make one a bad person, as do some of the acts she demands or approves of.

As for the insistence that after killing Flemeth it is no longer Morrigan but the Witch, it is possible but I see no reason why anyone insists it is so. No changes occur in the dialogue and some things Morrigan says aren't what she should say if indeed Flemeth possessed her.

I don't believe she's actually Flemeth either (especially if the player kills Flemeth, that's gotta be a setback even for her) though I think Flemeth is likely so damn good at her game that she could take over and act like Morrigan so perfectly that no one would be the wiser. I like that old witch (which is weird, considering how much I hate her daughter) but she sure is one of the creepiest characters ever.

Flemeth probably isn't actually dead, but I think she needs more power before she possesses Morrigan through the robes... which by then Morrigan probably would have figured out the purpose of the outfit and/or a way to stop Flemeth.

My money would be on Flemeth any day. She's so much older, more experienced and powerful, and smarter. Morrigan may be intelligent, but in many situations (especially any situation involving other people) her arrogance gets in the way of applying her brains properly.

Modifié par Korva, 07 décembre 2009 - 10:06 .

[EJ42]

Armiece wrote...

EJ42 wrote...


She knows what she likes, and she knows what is the "right" thing to do in any situation.  Perhaps you would prefer a woman who wants to stare at a menu for half an hour before deciding what to order.  Morrigan would sit down, ignore the menu, tell the waiter exactly what to bring her, and simply glare at him/her until her requirements were met.

So she's a spoiled brat who thinks acting like an entitled **** will make the world bend to her will? HOT! What thinking man could resist?

No.  That's not it at all.  The fact that you saw her in that light says much more about you than her.