100 réponses à ce sujet

[themaxzero]

Keep in mind +elemental damage caps at 30%.

[DragoonKain3]

Yeah, +element stacks up to 30%, proven with in-game testing. That's the reason why my build focuses on a;; spirit spells with cold on the side, in order to maximize the amount of spells thats affected by this boost. One of the big reasons why I REGRET choosing tempest line, since I can only really maximize 2 elements, not 3.

Staff of Magister Lords - +10% spirit, +2 mana regen, +13 spellpower
Helm of Honnleath - +2 to all stats (use other +STR equips to help equip it, and unequip +STR items after)
Ashen Gloves -  +20% cold
Tevinter Mage robes - +1 mana regen, +5 spellpower
Fade Striders - +1 magic (yeah, mages have it bad with boots)
Amulet of the War Mage - +5% every element
Andruils Blessing - +2 to all stats, +1 mana regen
Dreamsever - +10% spirit
Blood Ring - +5% spirit, +1 Blood Magic

Total:
+18 spellpower
+5 magic
+4 mana regen
+30% spirit
+25% cold
+5% every other element
+1 Blood Magic


@spellmight drain being negated by staff of magister lords + combat training regen

That might be true, but that's still 120 mana per minute you're not getting that could otherwise be used to power spells. That's an entropic death for the same amount of time it takes for it to cooldown, or a free arcane bolt every time it coolsdown, or a free Winter's Grasp/Lightning/Life Drain for every time it cools down.


@konfeta

Reason why we're arguing is the usefulness of Spell Might. You say that you should always have it on when you possibly can, I say it's only worth using on elite bosses.

I mean, the odds of the target being left with enough hp in that Spell Might will make enough of a difference to your average trash mobs? Not very likely at all. I usually 2-shot or 3-shot enemies already w/out spell might, and spell might isn't going to change that except for giving me less mana than I'm used to. If its a 20% increase, maybe, but 10%? You gotta be kidding me if you're consistently having enemies with a sliver of health after 2/3 casts in which Spell Might would've outright killed them.


As for the Storm arguement, this stems with the fact that even the mightiest mage is still constrained by talent picks and equips. Even assuming people can't run right through Storm, is it still worth the 3 talent points to get another AoE when Blizzard + 1 damage AoE (namely Death Cloud) is enough for vast majority of situations? Is it worth the extra 100 mana to kill what is already going to be dead by just using Blizz + Tempest on their own?  Is it worth the split in +element damage equipment to cater to a third element?

I mean, sure Storm has bigger AoE, but the fact that you can't aim it properly via third person view, and tactical view can only see so far means that this advantage is largely negated for the majority of situations.

So you outweigh the costs you have to pay in order to get Storm against the benefits you gain by getting it. 3 talent points, 100 extra mana per use, riskier, splitting your elemental focus vs bigger AoE you can't take advantage off most of the time and stamina draining attacks? Am I the only one who see its so not worth it apart from the 'cool factor' of Storm?

Really now, if I'm just theory crafting, then you can call me on this. But man, after regretting taking the tempest line for the past 10 or so levels, making a second blemish on an otherwise optimized mage of mine, I think I know what I'm talking about. (For the record, the first blemish is taking Spellbloom, because at that time, I didn't know it did NOT scale with spellpower so it was better off in my support mage)

So yeah, the mage is powerful enough as it is in that you can choose any collection of spells and still do great with them (my current mage is an example). Doesn't change the fact that there's still ways to optimize them. 

[themaxzero]

Yeah but how might fights last a minute? Archdemon? Can use pots there with no concerns. Branka? Can't really AoE effectively.

As for Storm I have stopped using it and am now using Inferno since it does 2/3 of the damage of Storm but is cheaper and easier to use.

As for Spell Might, with that reasoning why put puts into Spell Power at all? Why not just put them into Willpower? It gets to the point where more spell power will kill an enemy earlier.

I been messing around with the respec mod for my Mage (4 run throughs is enough for now). Really beginning to like the Fire line. You can just about get through the game just spamming Fire Ball.

Modifié par themaxzero, 29 novembre 2009 - 11:42 .

[Zilod]

the difference in dps is around 1/4 but problem of inferno is that blizzard give fire resist... so, as blizzard is the base of aoe dots you end up doing less dmg than its optimal, storm on the counter is cheaper, deal good dmg and drain mana/action too... death cloud do same dmg as storm, is spirit dmg (one of the least resisted dmg) and can be used for entropic death combo



fire line is nice, 1st level cone and fireball are good spell indeed but imo better to get another aoe dots rather than inferno be it storm (anyway lightning cone is a good spell) or death cloud for entropic death

[themaxzero]

Why would use Blizzard with Inferno? Cold is the most resisted damage type in the game. Against Undead or Demons is basically useless.



Inferno does 40 damage + 40% of spell power over 4 seconds

Death Cloud and Tempest do 10 damage + 10% of spellpower over 2 seconds.



Inferno = Death Cloud + Tempest.



I find Earthquake and a Glyph of Repulsion in the doorway is more then enough CC to keep then in.

[Zilod]

on anger(?) demons it works well, they seem pretty vuln to it



but the point of blizzard is that is a CC with same area as other aoe dots, you can pretty much clear whole rooms with it+another aoe dot even at higher difficulties, given that you have to pull with it (at hard+ if mobs are alredy running at you they get out of the aoe too fast to suffer mezzing)



if you go with just inferno the mobs will run all over, archers will get out of it and grunts will charge you



you can put glyph at the door of course, but at higher level is not as effective as normal, not to say that it will not do anything against archers, that will flee in some corner (if possible ofc) or at worst they will keep shoting arrows at you



earthquake for my experience is just useless as it is easily resisted and too many mobs seem totally immune to it



sadly my toolset doesnt work so i dont know the stats but i tried to test dmg using naked, unbuffed char casting various aoe dots on me and i got 10 dmg/tick out of inferno and 8 dmg/tick from both storm and death cloud...



the dmg from other aoe dots fit pretty well with the one you posted, but not the inferno one, but maybe it got patched "recently" as i run my tests quite some time ago, before patching the game

[DragoonKain3]

@themaxzero
 

As for Spell Might, with that reasoning why put puts into Spell Power at all? Why not just put them into Willpower? It gets to the point where more spell power will kill an enemy earlier.

See, reason why you max magic is for the bosses, where the mana given by WIL can be largely offset by the increased potency of lyrium pots, and having more spellpower means harder resist checks and damage. You don't max spellpower to be more efficient in killing trash mobs; no, WIL is much more efficient against your average trash mob, since they have generally poor resistances and health that you won't see noticeable differences with higher spellpower.

But see, you don't build your characters with trash mobs in mind first then bosses. No, you build your character around bosses first then trash mobs, and as such you max magic since WIL has next to no effect in endurance battles against bosses. This is THE reason why you put points in Spellpower, and not because you should be putting points in spellpower just to make killing trash mobs faster (it does, but the effect is so minimal that its hardly noticeable due to their significantly lower hps)

So yeah, all I'm saying is that for 90%+ of trash mobs, you will kill them with the same amount of spells with or without spellmight, especially once you start running 100 base spellpower or so. So why even bother using it for these guys? 

With a max magic/no will mage, sure you still have a lot of mana, but its still limited unless you love to spend money on pots. You have to learn when and when not to spend mana... I mean, no sense casting another nuke when your staff will be enough to kill the enemy, no?

It's the same reasoning as why on earth would you throw in Death Cloud when the enemy will already die to Blizzard + Tempest? Do people really like wasting mana for no apparent reason? I've seen a lot of people complaining about running out of mana much too often, and effeciency goes a long way to avoiding this, especially if you're maximizing your spell power/spending no points in WIL specifically for the boss fights.

But hey, if people want to toggle on spellmight every battle and toggle it off after every battle, or if people like starting with 60 less mana by keeping it on at all times, on top of suffering -4 regen for its duration, then be my guest. Me personally, spellmight having next to no effect for vast majority of trash battles on top of it being totally inconvenient by turning it on/off makes the spell situational at best.

[DragoonKain3]

@Zilod

you can put glyph at the door of course, but at higher level is not as effective as normal, not to say that it will not do anything against archers, that will flee in some corner (if possible ofc) or at worst they will keep shoting arrows at you

I think the archers still shooting at you is the main problem here. I'm playing with the DEX hotfix (which they're intending to implement next patch), meaning enemy archers hits HARD on top of Nightmare damage bonuses. And if there's multiples of them, they become REALLY dangerous with Scattershot. I've been wiped because of multiple scattershots when I used to underestimate archers. If its not the damage that kills you, having your entire party stunned will. And believe me, every high level (lvl 15+) archer has scattershot, and it annoys me to no end that they're public enemy #2 if there's a bunch of them.

Thus, my main issue to prevent them from casting Scattershot. Earthquake + Blizzard I find works very well in preventing this, since between the two they'll be knocked down enough to prevent them from scattershotting me before they get frozen. Repulsion glyph doesn't really work.

earthquake for my experience is just useless as it is easily resisted and too many mobs seem totally immune to it

Earthquake I find isn't really that good in keeping people inside AoEs by itself (people run right through my Storms even with earthquake on). I find its usefulness for the fact that its fast cast, slows people, and it knockdowns the moment it is cast, making it the perfect companion in keeping people within Blizzard's AoE long enough for them to be frozen.

That is, blizzard is cast, knockdown, earthquake is cast, knockdown, both slows the enemy, and one more tick and the enemy is frozen.

I also tend to put earthquake a bit closer than Blizzard rather than completely overlapped, so that any incoming enemies will be knockdowned by both spells.

But by itself? Needs a companion spell to be effective.

sadly my toolset doesnt work so i dont know the stats but i tried to test dmg using naked, unbuffed char casting various aoe dots on me and i got 10 dmg/tick out of inferno and 8 dmg/tick from both storm and death cloud...

That's just resistances coming into play. Assuming even resistances, Inferno should outdamage tempest and cloud four times over, while equal in damage per tick with Storm but at twice the interval.

[themaxzero]

DragoonKain3 wrote...

@themaxzero
 

As for Spell Might, with that reasoning why put puts into Spell Power at all? Why not just put them into Willpower? It gets to the point where more spell power will kill an enemy earlier.

See, reason why you max magic is for the bosses, where the mana given by WIL can be largely offset by the increased potency of lyrium pots, and having more spellpower means harder resist checks and damage. You don't max spellpower to be more efficient in killing trash mobs; no, WIL is much more efficient against your average trash mob, since they have generally poor resistances and health that you won't see noticeable differences with higher spellpower.

But see, you don't build your characters with trash mobs in mind first then bosses. No, you build your character around bosses first then trash mobs, and as such you max magic since WIL has next to no effect in endurance battles against bosses. This is THE reason why you put points in Spellpower, and not because you should be putting points in spellpower just to make killing trash mobs faster (it does, but the effect is so minimal that its hardly noticeable due to their significantly lower hps)

So yeah, all I'm saying is that for 90%+ of trash mobs, you will kill them with the same amount of spells with or without spellmight, especially once you start running 100 base spellpower or so. So why even bother using it for these guys? 

With a max magic/no will mage, sure you still have a lot of mana, but its still limited unless you love to spend money on pots. You have to learn when and when not to spend mana... I mean, no sense casting another nuke when your staff will be enough to kill the enemy, no?

It's the same reasoning as why on earth would you throw in Death Cloud when the enemy will already die to Blizzard + Tempest? Do people really like wasting mana for no apparent reason? I've seen a lot of people complaining about running out of mana much too often, and effeciency goes a long way to avoiding this, especially if you're maximizing your spell power/spending no points in WIL specifically for the boss fights.

But hey, if people want to toggle on spellmight every battle and toggle it off after every battle, or if people like starting with 60 less mana by keeping it on at all times, on top of suffering -4 regen for its duration, then be my guest. Me personally, spellmight having next to no effect for vast majority of trash battles on top of it being totally inconvenient by turning it on/off makes the spell situational at best.

So you say you build for Boss fights where Spell Might is good but you don't like to use Spell Might because it does not help for trash mobs which you say don't matter anyway?

I have always had a rule for Bioware RPGs: 'Build your character for the hard stuff not the easy stuff'.

Modifié par themaxzero, 29 novembre 2009 - 04:35 .

[Zilod]

DragoonKain3 wrote...

I also tend to put earthquake a bit closer than Blizzard rather than completely overlapped, so that any incoming enemies will be knockdowned by both spells.

But by itself? Needs a companion spell to be effective.

sadly my toolset doesnt work so i dont know the stats but i tried to test dmg using naked, unbuffed char casting various aoe dots on me and i got 10 dmg/tick out of inferno and 8 dmg/tick from both storm and death cloud...

That's just resistances coming into play. Assuming even resistances, Inferno should outdamage tempest and cloud four times over, while equal in damage per tick with Storm but at twice the interval.

i think you are gettin mostly the blizzard effect there, try to use just blizard and not earthquake i bet you will get mostly the same results... the only prob of blizzard is its casting time in the situations where the mobs see you, sleep in such situations is extremely effective as hard to resist and with huge area too... of course blizzard is going to break it, but at that point both slow and freeze will start to tick


no i tried unbuffed and naked char so had not resistances or +% elemental dmg, the dmg was low (8 and 10) because i did the test on normal to tone down the incoming dmg and obserbe for more time the effect so that 8 is actually 16 and 10 is 20.... 16 seem correct with the posted formula is 20 that doesnt fit at all... will make some more tests, maybe it was really patched or got something else modifing the results, no idea

[DragoonKain3]

So you say you build for Boss fights where Spell Might is good but you don't like to use Spell Might because it does not help for trash mobs which you say don't matter anyway?

I didn't say trash mobs did not matter. If anything, trash mobs scattershooting and wiping my party is a testament to that.

I'm saying spell might wouldn't make a difference whether you used it or not against trash mobs.. vast majority of the time, the 10% increase in spellpower will be not be felt when you 2/3-shot mobs already without it. On top of that, you have to inconvenience yourself further by turning it on/off during and after battle, or start with 60 less mana every battle by continually sustaining it, all for no visible effect for these trash battles while suffering 4 less mana regen.

So yeah, Spell Might alone is not worth the 3 points spent on unlocking it. Spending 4 points to get Spell Clash is well worth it though, if you don't have another mage using Neutralization Glyph or Anti-magic ward already, since it takes out public enemy #1 without impunity; getting Spell Might for the little bit extra oomph for boss battles is just gravy.

I have always had a rule for Bioware RPGs: 'Build your character for the hard stuff not the easy stuff'.

Exactly my point my friend, and its not just bioware RPGs, but RPGs in general. Reason why I don't spend one point in WIL since MAG is more effective against bosses.

[DragoonKain3]

@Zilod



Actually, people occassionally run right through my Blizzard without Earthquake on. I know because before I got Wynne Earthquake, I continually have to guard a choke point ready with Cone of Cold for the people who won't be frozen. After Earthquake, only the occassional yellow gets through.



And it can be cast the other way for mostly the same effect; in fact, that's what I do against enemy archers who's already in the process of scatter shooting my party, since Blizzard is a 2 second cast, meaning it cannot be used to interrupt Scattershot once enemies start casting it already. I go Earthquake, knockdown (interrupt scattershot), Blizzard, knockdown, and wait for freeze. The delay for the freeze is longer than if you cast Blizzard first, but interrupting Scatter shot is WELL worth it. I actually used to follow up with Grease as well for a third knockdown, but I find its superfluous even when I cast earthquake first.



And yeah, sleep is better. But considering Wynne already starts with Stonefist, she only needs 1 talent point to get Earthquake while she'll need to get 3 with Sleep.





As for element damage, note that enemy monsters have their own set of resistances. For example, Undead are either highly resistant to cold, or outright immune to it. Same thing with some of the demons being highly resistant to fire. I personally find my Blizzard does around 15 a tick (which is on the low side, so I expect more people are resistant to cold), while Tempest usually around 25 with +elec equips on.

[konfeta]

When killing everything, it doesn't matter how much mana you spend on it. You will literally regenerate it before coming up to the next battle. Inferno, Tempest, Blizzard, Earthquake are far too surgical for my taste when it comes to the "kill everything" department, they are more of anti-archer or chokepoint holding device for me.

As for the HP sliver thing, this might actually come down to placebo effect or extrapolation. I remember, definitively, that in some areas a Fireball clearly did under half HP damage without Spellmight and over with it. We would probably need a spreadsheet contrasting monster HP at every level with damage at various spellpower/+%damage equipment at this point to see who is quantitatively correct (I.E.; so not worth the effort.)

I will restate my philosophy thus: I do not remember a single time I had to drink a pot in a non-boss battle despite keeping Spellmight on 24/7. So might as well make use of the chance to kill some things faster. Or just for the sake of slightly prettier numbers.

Modifié par konfeta, 29 novembre 2009 - 05:31 .

[themaxzero]

Blizzard has problems because its cold based. Some enemies are highly resistant to it (namely Undead and Demons). Go do the Mage tower and try to Blizzard the packs of Abominations and Hunger Demons or the packs of Undead in Redcliffe castle and see how effective it is. When I first started playing DA I was like "OMG BLIZZARD" and its awesome when it works but not reliable enough for me.

I think Earthquake gets a bit of a bad rap. People take in on Wynne, cast it, see resists and think "Earthquake sucks!". You have to remember that Wynne has crappy spellpower so her spells in general are pretty weak. At 120 spellpower my PC Mage's Earthquake is far more reliable and works on many more targets.Instant cast too. The fact I get Stone Fist (man I really love this spell) and Petrify is a bonus.

Sleep is great...until you fight Demons. I like my CCs to work against eveything.

Modifié par themaxzero, 29 novembre 2009 - 05:58 .

[themaxzero]

konfeta wrote...

When killing everything, it doesn't matter how much mana you spend on it. You will literally regenerate it before coming up to the next battle. Inferno, Tempest, Blizzard, Earthquake are far too surgical for my taste when it comes to the "kill everything" department, they are more of anti-archer or chokepoint holding device for me.

As for the HP sliver thing, this might actually come down to placebo effect or extrapolation. I remember, definitively, that in some areas a Fireball clearly did under half HP damage without Spellmight and over with it. We would probably need a spreadsheet contrasting monster HP at every level with damage at various spellpower/+%damage equipment at this point to see who is quantitatively correct (I.E.; so not worth the effort.)

I will restate my philosophy thus: I do not remember a single time I had to drink a pot in a non-boss battle despite keeping Spellmight on 24/7. So might as well make use of the chance to kill some things faster. Or just for the sake of slightly prettier numbers.

To be honest I haven't really found much difference between Storm of the Century and Inferno. Things like maybe a tick or 2 longer in Inferno but it cost far less mana plus its much easier to use.

[konfeta]

Inferno takes too much muddling about with disables to keep melee in it and luring archers/mages into it's AoE. Indiscriminate nuking is for us simpler folks.

[Zilod]

themaxzero wrote...


Blizzard has problems because its cold based. Some enemies are highly resistant to it (namely Undead and Demons). Go do the Mage tower and try to Blizzard the packs of Abominations and Hunger Demons or the packs of Undead in Redcliffe castle and see how effective it is. When I first started playing DA I was like "OMG BLIZZARD" and its awesome when it works but not reliable enough for me.

I think Earthquake gets a bit of a bad rap. People take in on Wynne, cast it, see resists and think "Earthquake sucks!". You have to remember that Wynne has crappy spellpower so her spells in general are pretty weak. At 120 spellpower my PC Mage's Earthquake is far more reliable and works on many more targets.Instant cast too. The fact I get Stone Fist (man I really love this spell) and Petrify is a bonus.

Sleep is great...until you fight Demons. I like my CCs to work against eveything.

mobs can be resistant or immune to cold dmg, but not to cold effects... you can freeze mobs invul to cold so, even if the dmg of blizzard will be low its cc component will still work

i got earthquake on my primal nuke... he have high spellpower but everytime i tried it had almost no effect at all... maybe is the difficulty level, but i tried it on melee guys, on archers, on dogs... nothing... maybe it was because it was in late midgame (first i got more usefull stuff ofc), maybe as said was the level too high... but the results where pretty crappy

[themaxzero]

konfeta wrote...

Inferno takes too much muddling about with disables to keep melee in it and luring archers/mages into it's AoE. Indiscriminate nuking is for us simpler folks.

Well Storm of the Century does not have any disabling either. In fact the only AoE that does is Blizzard.

If you want simple nuking nothing is as straightforward as Fireball.

[themaxzero]

Zilod wrote...

themaxzero wrote...


Blizzard has problems because its cold based. Some enemies are highly resistant to it (namely Undead and Demons). Go do the Mage tower and try to Blizzard the packs of Abominations and Hunger Demons or the packs of Undead in Redcliffe castle and see how effective it is. When I first started playing DA I was like "OMG BLIZZARD" and its awesome when it works but not reliable enough for me.

I think Earthquake gets a bit of a bad rap. People take in on Wynne, cast it, see resists and think "Earthquake sucks!". You have to remember that Wynne has crappy spellpower so her spells in general are pretty weak. At 120 spellpower my PC Mage's Earthquake is far more reliable and works on many more targets.Instant cast too. The fact I get Stone Fist (man I really love this spell) and Petrify is a bonus.

Sleep is great...until you fight Demons. I like my CCs to work against eveything.

mobs can be resistant or immune to cold dmg, but not to cold effects... you can freeze mobs invul to cold so, even if the dmg of blizzard will be low its cc component will still work

i got earthquake on my primal nuke... he have high spellpower but everytime i tried it had almost no effect at all... maybe is the difficulty level, but i tried it on melee guys, on archers, on dogs... nothing... maybe it was because it was in late midgame (first i got more usefull stuff ofc), maybe as said was the level too high... but the results where pretty crappy

There is no real difference both spells make the same physical resistance checks. Blizzard for Freeze Earthquake for knockdown.

[metatrans]

there's no AoE that works without support spells. each one has one failing or another.



Inferno has the highest damage but requires you to keep mobs pinned down in it. i've been using Paralysis Explosion combo to get a free 10-20 seconds (duration seems to vary based on mob level) of holding the mobs in the fire.



Blizzard has built in crowd control and does a great job of keeping mobs in the area all by itself. but its damage is terrible. a full duration blizzard won't even kill some white named mobs. it barely puts a dent in yellows. it needs support with another AoE damage spell. and you really can't use fire to support it and its hard to shoot arrows into it (blizzard gives mobs bonuses to fire resist and defense). so you need to cast a Tempest or Death Cloud into your blizzard to actually make sure it kills guys.



Tempest and Death Cloud are just lesser versions of Inferno. you pay less mana and get less damage. they need the same support. have to use it with Blizzard or Paralysis Explosion or something similar.



there's nothing thats totally self-contained.

[themaxzero]

Oh I agree.



The amount of control you get from Blizzard is sick. But you do need to pair it with another AoE to get real punch.



Thanks to the respec mod I can try it out. At the moment I'm avoiding Tempest because I don't want it to turn into Storm of the Century (overkill most of the time). I'm trying out Spirit Cloud then maxxing the Hex line so I can grab the Entropic Death Combo.



Decisions, decisions.

[konfeta]

The whole point of Storm of the Century that it is self-contained, provided you aim it so melee doesn't start running while you are still casting the component spells.



This can be avoided by opening with Blizzard (riskiest as some melee might not get frozen), opening outside aggro range (safest, but you can easily miss the archers in the back if you do not visualize SotC's AoE), or using 2 casters to fire it (start the second spell a fraction of the second after the first one).



It's not a spell you use in combat (with rare circumstances). It's a spell you open with to avoid combat in the first place, if you need glyphs/paralysie/etc. to catch melee long enough in it to kill them, you basically missed the spell and might as well have used Inferno + Paralyse explosion or any of the combos dragoonkain suggested. Unless you like overassured overkill, that is.

[metatrans]

i'm just gonna go ahead and put this out there.



Blizzard+Death Cloud is superior in almost every way to Storm of the Century. its got nearly identical damage, fewer talent point pre-requisites, and is easier to setup. trivially easy to setup if its spread out on two mages.

[DragoonKain3]

Finally, someone else who gets it other than me lol. XD



On top of all things I mentioned (only focusing on 2 elements, freeze effect of blizzard, etc. etc.), Death Cloud sets up Entropic Death, so if you see any yellow or red enemies within the cloud (who might survive your AoEs), start nuking with Death Hex.

[Haplose]

themaxzero wrote...
Sleep is great...until you fight Demons. I like my CCs to work against eveything.

That's what Waking Nightmare in that line is for. Sure the radius is much smaller. But working against everything and having enemies fight each other is priceless.