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The Point of the Landsmeet?


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#26
Soepkommetje

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Cromalic wrote...

The duel always happens. Attacking and battling first is optional if you have enough votes, but when Loghain reaches 0 HP he doesn't die and the fight is over. Then the nobles say something about not wanting anymore bloodshed in these halls, and that the matter should be settled by a duel and that's what happens.


When that happens it's the revered mother that calls for an end to the bloodshed and for a duel to settle the dispute like it was done more often in previous days. Basically; it's not commonplace in Ferelden anymore (unlike in Orzammar), but they have a history of settling disputes by duels.

And if you take a metagame perspective and look at the different ways the Landsmeet plays out, it is obvious it's not possible to skip battle. If you look at a single playthrough however and stick to what your character notes, it makes sense whichever way it turns out.

What miffed me was that without explanation I seemed to lose with 4 votes against 2, I assumed the majority of visible votes would be enough to be win the argument. I guess it's the outsider (the Warden) needing a certain majority because he challenges the currently ruling regent.

#27
Hunter246

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Taerda wrote...

I was disappointed I could not kill Anora then and there.


I betrayed Anora like she did me in landsmeet on my other play though I said i would support her so she would vote against her dad.

#28
slackbheep

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I loved the Landsmeet, but the duel did feel pretty goofy. I had support of all but one noble if I recall correctly, and even better was how I nominated Morrigan as my champion (go go cone of cold). I hear they don't allow dog to become the champion but how about Shale? Oghren? Zevran? How about having the Orlesian spy duel him? =/

#29
Herr Uhl

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slackbheep wrote...

I loved the Landsmeet, but the duel did feel pretty goofy. I had support of all but one noble if I recall correctly, and even better was how I nominated Morrigan as my champion (go go cone of cold). I hear they don't allow dog to become the champion but how about Shale? Oghren? Zevran? How about having the Orlesian spy duel him? =/


Naming a champion was pretty common in the olden days when trial by combat was commonplace.

You can choose anyone but dog.

#30
ArcanistLibram

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Loghain practically left his son to die, hired a Blood Mage to kill his in-law, hired another Blood Mage to take over the Circle, sold elves as slaves to Tevinter, tortured a bunch of nobles who opposed him and sent his armies to kill the rest.



What part of Loghain's actions leads you to believe that he would step down quietly just because the bannorn asked politely?

#31
Herr Uhl

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ArcanistLibram wrote...

Loghain practically left his son to die, hired a Blood Mage to kill his in-law, hired another Blood Mage to take over the Circle, sold elves as slaves to Tevinter, tortured a bunch of nobles who opposed him and sent his armies to kill the rest.

What part of Loghain's actions leads you to believe that he would step down quietly just because the bannorn asked politely?


It is Marics son, otherwise the fact that he and Anora were married would be freaky, even by royal standards.

#32
Hunter246

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slackbheep wrote...

I loved the Landsmeet, but the duel did feel pretty goofy. I had support of all but one noble if I recall correctly, and even better was how I nominated Morrigan as my champion (go go cone of cold). I hear they don't allow dog to become the champion but how about Shale? Oghren? Zevran? How about having the Orlesian spy duel him? =/


Oghren can i know for sure i got a option

#33
Suron

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Cromalic wrote...

As far as I understood the duel would determine the entire outcome of the landsmeet.If the votes are against you, you can still turn the whole thing around with the duel, right? So it does determine the outcome?
Don't get me wrong, I loved the landsmeet. Which is exactly why I didn't like that everything would be decided by a duel. Might as well had that duel to begin with and skip all the votes and speeches.
I did enjoy the duel and I don't mind that it's mandatory from a designer point of view, I just didn't like or understand the reasoning behind it and the consequences storywise.


no.  it's an RPG remember.  the whole "gaining support" is part of the flavor leading up to it....from a story/immersion perspective..from a game perspective it gives more xp and more to do..a time sink...

also..as said...in this world (which mirrors feudalism in our own) it is believed in such a duel that "God" (the maker in this case) determines who wins..not the strongest..not the most skilled..the one that is in the RIGHT and doing "GODS" (THE MAKERS) WILL...

and..again as already said...Loghain is adamant about NOT BACKING DOWN..he believes ONLY HE can lead Fereldan against the Blight...so in that sense a duel is THE ONLY WAY to prevent civil war...

So in that sense it's pefectly fitting.  Not to mention it shows just how DEDICATED Loghain is.

Sure it woulda been nice if the votes/support gave you a different outcome..but honestly...it's MORE FITTING to Loghains CHARACTER that it was only able to be resolved this way.

/thread

#34
Maedryc

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Well, considering I've been waiting to whip Loghain's ass since Ostagar, no, the duel didn't really bother me, although I agree that having the option to resolve the whole thing peacefully would have been nice.

Anyway...it's a game. I don't expect every detail to make sense...I mean, the main character is a Grey Warden: if he really wanted to kill Loghain, he could just invoke the Right of Conscription and try his luck with the Joining instead of beating the crap out of him.

For that matter, Sophie Dreyden could have done the same instead of trying to stir a rebellion and dying at Soldier's Peak...

#35
Maedryc

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Cool, a double post.

Modifié par Maedryc, 28 novembre 2009 - 04:30 .


#36
Maedryc

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...triple post, actually. Sigh.

Modifié par Maedryc, 28 novembre 2009 - 04:30 .


#37
Cromalic

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So obviously the duel was going to take place anyhow considering how determined Loghain is in his cause. So why go through all the trouble of gathering evidence and support? Why not just call the landsmeet and challenge Loghain to a duel if this is so widely accepted?

Would the nobles accept the outcome and let Loghain continue to rule if he had won the duel, or would a new fight break out? What sort of power does the nobles really have if everything they vote on can be overthrown with a duel where they have no control of the outcome? Are the nobles there simply to make humanity look civil?

I'm getting slightly more convinced though, which is why I like this discussion. I'd like to understand the plot fully and the reasoning behind the characters' actions.

#38
ReubenLiew

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For one thing the Duel is suggested by a third party, and by all accounts duelling is an ancient and normally not practiced tradition anymore, so to go in and challenge Loghain to a duel off the bat would result you being laughed out of the landsmeet.

#39
red8x

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Speaking of Anora... I thought she was Queen. We should have been able to duel her, but since Loghain declared himself regent I guess we got stuck with him instead. Loghain presumably was Anora's champion so in defeating him Anora should have lost any claims to the throne.



The whole thing seemed a bit jumbled to me. I thought regents were named when the king/queen was a minor or incapacitated in some way. Anora wasn't either. She just came across as incapable of controlling her father. I was never clear on why she couldn't have told him 'thanks but you're just the general of my armies.'



Another thing I wasn't clear on is why Alistair had a claim to the throne. He is a Grey Warden. I thought part of being a Warden was giving up your former life or any future claims. I'm assuming this was supposed to be a special circumstance demanding an exception to the rule...thank goodness we conveniently have the King's bastard son in our party.






#40
Melra

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Mmm... Imagine scene where PC loses the voting and is about to be beheaded, when suddenly something comes to his mind. The blade rises when suddenly PC speaks out the words: ''Parlay?''

#41
Zyxxs

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You can choose anyone but dog.


Which is quite tragic, really.

Imagine the legendary Loghain losing a duel to a dog...I can think of no better way to convince the people of Ferelden that he's not fit to rule anything.

#42
Hunter246

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I make perfect sense you can't send your hound to fight lol

#43
Hunter246

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double post sorry it not i

#44
Original182

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Cromalic wrote...

So obviously the duel was going to take place anyhow considering how determined Loghain is in his cause. So why go through all the trouble of gathering evidence and support? Why not just call the landsmeet and challenge Loghain to a duel if this is so widely accepted?


By asking your question, you may have been on to something.

Can you just waltz in and challenge Loghain to a duel? No, you may become the laughing stock of the nobles, who may just throw you out and you would never live it down. At this point, people may know you a bit, but they don't know you that well.

So the Landsmeet really is necessary to determine who should rule Ferelden in the politically correct manner. At least for you, it is to make yourself appear a real legitimate challenge to Loghain. He is still a war hero after all.

I see now the duel as maybe the "Plan B" if the Landsmeet is locked in a tie, or if the Landsmeet "failed" to resolve who should rule Ferelden. So you can have the duel, only after "all possible avenues" have been explored. That is why you cannot have a duel without the Landsmeet first.

Maybe the duel is an accepted final form
of resolving matters in all walks of life, not just for the nobility. Maybe merchants can also
duel to determine who should open shop, or suitors can duel for the
hand of a woman, etc. But just like the Landsmeet, maybe it's better
for the merchants to talk things through, or the suitors to ask the woman to choose. Why die if you can avoid it, death is no small matter.

But these are exceptional times, because the Blight is just around the corner! So both you or Loghain are desperate to win, and the duel is the final option left.

Would the nobles accept the outcome and let Loghain continue to rule if he had won the duel, or would a new fight break out? What sort of power does the nobles really have if everything they vote on can be overthrown with a duel where they have no control of the outcome? Are the nobles there simply to make humanity look civil?


Yes the nobles would accept Loghain because either the main character dies, or the champion dies. The nobles are also tired of the civil war, and have to prepare for the Blight, so they would have no choice but to agree.
I'm sure the Landsmeet really is the final say most of the time, but they also cannot refuse the duel due to honor. So probably cases like what your main character goes through are rare (civil war with the Blight just around the corner).
As for nobles doing all this just to appear civilized, it's politics we're talking about!

Keep in mine I cannot back up what I said based on in-game information about duels. I am merely speculating to try and resolve the Landsmeet with the duel.

Modifié par Original182, 28 novembre 2009 - 05:39 .


#45
Cromalic

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I like the way you're thinking Original182. Good explanation and it seems like the most valid one to me.

I wish though that it would've been explained ingame a bit more. Seemed like I was winning the landsmeet, but suddenly this duel comes out of nowhere, no real explanation beforehand, no real explanation afterwards. It's just honor, it just happened, everyone accepted it, and that was it.

I guess we can only theorize and settle with that. Thanks though. :)

#46
ArcanistLibram

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Herr Uhl wrote...

It is Marics son, otherwise the fact that he and Anora were married would be freaky, even by royal standards.


Loghain still loved him like a son.

#47
Kinaori

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Theratis111 wrote...

Landsmeet was weird for me. I "won". 6 nobles voted for me, 2 against. Then Arl Eamon goes "this is not good, we will not lose in this manner" and attacks, even though we won.

Image IPBImage IPB

Yeah this happened to me too on my second playthrough.  I was thoroughly confused :pinched: