33 réponses à ce sujet

[Imrahil_]

Zevran is completely useless.  Zevran is the world's biggest supporter for using the ReSpec MOD.  He's frickin' useless.  I've played the whole game through a couple of times: the first taking Leliana, the second with a Rogue as my main, the third taking the NPC's I hadn't taken yet.

So now I'm trying to play through with Zevran & his Rogue abilities are terrible!  I've managed to level up a couple times with him & at least get Device Mastery II, but he still can't pick near anything!  Half the chests I have to just leave behind because he's a terrible Rogue.  Now, that also highlights the inability to Bash chests (& yes, ignores the fact that most locked chests have useless loot), but the fact remains that Zevran is a terrible Rogue.

He also can't spot traps to save our lives.  After a couple of play-throughs, I know where some of the traps are, but he doesn't!  I'll walk him back & forth in front of them &... nothing.  He's useless.  Or, perhaps, like I said, the best case for using a ReSpec MOD.

I mean, he can't even backstab well.  He can't make Poisons well.  He can't make Traps well (he doesn't even stasrt with Traps I!).  Just... plain... useless.  He's too high a level when you finally get him to hope to counter his horrible ability/skill/talent  choices when you pick him up by gaining more experience.

Maybe he can be useful during the third treaty, if you do the first rightaway, save all side-quests til after you pick him up, babysit him through the second where he's useless, do all the Denerim quests you can, then maybe finally give him useful skills & he's half-decent during the third, but more likely during RedCliffe/Haven when you no longer need to loot every chest to make money.

Can anyone tell me why I should ever pick up Zevran again, after this play-through?  Does he bring anything to the table that Leliana doesn't do better?

[Original182]

Yes, Zevran can be used to carry your expensive equipment by putting it on him, to save inventory space. So an additional companion means more inventory space, indirectly.

[MatronAdena]

only one....if YOUR a rogue, he can teach you to be an assassin.....thats the only use I really found for him. Other than that I liked leading him on, and when he would give me the " this thing about us, it seems most unfair to drag Lilianna along" etc....then utterly destroy his heart and soul, only to build it up again, and knock it down later.

[slmisfit]

I can't think of anything to say other than, like every other party member, he does his job if you level him right. He does seem to be made more for just extra DPS than actual rogue-related things (like lockpicking), though.

Modifié par blasphemae, 28 novembre 2009 - 08:38 .

[Duck and Cover]

I'm using him now. When i got him he's maxed out on poison making, so i'm not sure why you say he can't make poisons well.



unfortunately no points in locks/traps. it will obviously take 4 levels before he's maxed out on that.



one word: patience

[Cheiron the Centaur]

Zevran isn't really a rogue, he's an assassin. He does fairly well in combat (stealth, backstabbing, etc) and poison making, but he starts off almost useless in lockpicking etc. Ofcourse you can train him, but that will definitely take a number of levels.

Modifié par Cheiron the Centaur, 28 novembre 2009 - 08:50 .

[dannythefool]

He has no ranged skills for starters. If you want a melee rogue Leliana has a bunch of wasted talents that Zevran doesn't have.

But picking a party based on which characters you haven't used before doesn't really work very well. If you don't need another melee dps character then Zevran isn't a good choice. If you don't have one yet then he can be highly useful.

[slackbheep]

This is like saying Leliana is useless because she can't be a good meleer as she's got wasted points in the archery tree.

[Imrahil_]

slackbheep wrote...

This is like saying Leliana is useless because she can't be a good meleer as she's got wasted points in the archery tree.

No, that analogy doesn't work at all, because I'm saying Zevran is a terrible Rogue.  I don't care about either one's combat Skills.  A DW Rogue can be fun, as can an Archery Rogue.  Zevran sucks as a *Rogue*. 

Duck and Cover indicates you can pick him up at a decent Poison Making level, & I don't doubt that if you wait long enough, but what I need a Rogue for is Traps & Locks.  A Warrior can be good at Poisons.  Heck, a Mage can be good at Traps.  But Zevran has terrible Cunning & no Device Mastery.  Frankly, he can't open chests & he can't spot Traps.

The later you pick him up, the worse he is at either one.  He doesn't justify his slot, is all I'm saying.  Unless you want a "fun" party, which is all well & good, of course.  He doesn't bring any utility.

My point is that he's a terrible Rogue.  He can't Find Traps/Picks Locks.  Which means you need Leliana to be your Rogue or else you have to play a Rogue.  Which would be fine if we had more party slots, of course, but you can't waste a slot on a half-decent DW/decent Poison Maker.  If you bring Zevran along, you have to also bring along someone else that can handle Traps/Locks, which just makes him a gimped Warrior.

[emontyj]

melee rogues suck in nightmare unless you micro them and they die first if you neglect them



dual wield warrior is far superior and you can pump strength stat instead of cunning hybrid as a rogue...

so dual wield warrior has higher chances to hit and also has armour



the rogue advantage is only when backstabbing as cunning rogue, assassin spec with wardens keep buff, it's insane dps so much that it takes aggro away from anything which makes your tank useless, and you are unable to backstab more than 2 seconds before the thing turns around

[ComTrav]

I noticed my mage was able to add around 20 fire damage a hit with flaming weapons.

Zevran didn't seem very useless then.

There's nothing in the chests that's oh-so-awesome I absolutely need a lockpicker. And there are only a few places in the game where disabling traps makes a big difference.

[Basher of Glory]

emontyj wrote...

assassin spec with wardens keep buff, it's insane dps

Perhaps I don't know about that particular buff because of my localized version (German).

Do you refer to the abilities you get as a rogue when drinking the potion in warden's keep?

[Lucy Glitter]

... are you kidding? I take Zevran with me for most battles. When behind an enemy in battle, he is incomparable.

[Wissenschaft]

Zeveran is an assaisn. hes great at backstabing. Besides, theres hardly any chests worth opening.

[Imrahil_]

ComTrav wrote...

I noticed my mage was able to add around 20 fire damage a hit with flaming weapons.
Zevran didn't seem very useless then.

You're making my point for me. Thanks.  You'd be better off with a Warrior in that slot if you want DPS.

There's nothing in the chests that's oh-so-awesome I absolutely need a lockpicker. And there are only a few places in the game where disabling traps makes a big difference.

I acknowledged that point in my OP.  If you're saying "ignore Traps/Locks", then, yes, we agree.  Zevran is useless.

[Herr Uhl]

So, you are saying that he can't do anything cause he can't pick locks.



Saying that he's bad at backstabbing and poisonmaking is just ludicrous..

[ComTrav]

Imrahil_ wrote...

ComTrav wrote...

I noticed my mage was able to add around 20 fire damage a hit with flaming weapons.
Zevran didn't seem very useless then.

You're making my point for me. Thanks.  You'd be better off with a Warrior in that slot if you want DPS.

There's nothing in the chests that's oh-so-awesome I absolutely need a lockpicker. And there are only a few places in the game where disabling traps makes a big difference.

I acknowledged that point in my OP.  If you're saying "ignore Traps/Locks", then, yes, we agree.  Zevran is useless.

Which warrior would would I bring? I don't think Oghren/Sten, or any 2H warrior will out-DPS him.

[Imrahil_]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

... are you kidding? I take Zevran with me for most battles. When behind an enemy in battle, he is incomparable.

No, not kidding.  He's quite terrible behind an enemy.  He doesn't even start with Combat Movement, at least if you get him ASAP, so that's another Talent you have to give him before Device Mastery.  Plus, his Strength is atrocious, so you can't honestly tell me he's backstabbing with good weapons (axes) right when you get him.  But, again, I'm not even talking about his battle capabilities, I'm talking about as a *Rogue*.

Wissenschaft wrote...
Zeveran is an assaisn. hes great at backstabing. Besides, theres hardly any chests worth opening.

Again, no, he's not good at backstabbing.  He doesn't know Combat Movement.  He has low Strength.  He auto-takes the worst choices you could take.  He's a noob.  He takes 0 Rogue Skills/Talents.  His Cunning is terrible.

Also, I acknowledged the horrible chest-loot in the OP, so I already granted you that.

Seriously. Try comparing him to a Rogue main vs. the Attributes/Skills/Talents he has when he joins your party.  Simply awful choices all around, even just compared to Leliana who's choices you can control from early on.

Basically, if your only argument is that he's a good DW DPS, you're agreeing with me - he's a terrible Rogue & could be replaced with a Warrior, who'd be better at it.

[Imrahil_]

Herr Uhl wrote...

So, you are saying that he can't do anything cause he can't pick locks.

Saying that he's bad at backstabbing and poisonmaking is just ludicrous..

No, he's just bad at backstabbing.  Apparently if you wait long enough to pick him up he's decent at poison-making, but, honestly, any character can be good at poison-making.

[Imrahil_]

ComTrav wrote...
Which warrior would would I bring? I don't think Oghren/Sten, or any 2H warrior will out-DPS him.

Again, I'm not talking about his combat abilities.  I wish there was a decent DW Warrior in the game.  If you want to use Zevran as a semi-Warrior DPS DW, I'm not disagreeing with you.  Go for it.  He's a "great" slightly-gimped DPS Warrior.  He's just a terrible Rogue.

If you want to use him as a DW DPS gimped-Warrior, you'll need to bring along a real Rogue fior Traps/Locks.  I honestly think we agree about Zevran without realizing it.

Modifié par Imrahil_, 28 novembre 2009 - 11:16 .

[FrostyThundertrod]

Zevran can be gotten after 1 treaty I recommend doing the dalish first since you can easily skip most of the side quest and just resolve the main quest and get Zevran at about L7 he is pretty easy to fix then.

[ComTrav]

Imrahil_ wrote...

ComTrav wrote...
Which warrior would would I bring? I don't think Oghren/Sten, or any 2H warrior will out-DPS him.

Again, I'm not talking about his combat abilities.  I wish there was a decent DW Warrior in the game.  If you want to use Zevran as a semi-Warrior DPS DW, I'm not disagreeing with you.  Go for it.  He's a "great" slightly-gimped DPS Warrior.  He's just a terrible Rogue.

If you want to use him as a DW DPS gimped-Warrior, you'll need to bring along a real Rogue fior Traps/Locks.  I honestly think we agree about Zevram without realizing it.

I might as well say that you seem to just want a class with Device Mastery, as that skill seems to factor heavily in your idea of what constitutes a "real rogue".

Even if the game did give me a DW warrior, he wouldn't be able to stealth. And besides http://social.biowar.../index/223777/1 seemed to give the overall DPS edge to backstabbing rogues anyway, though it's not a perfect comparison, as it's a PC DW Warrior to a PC Rogue instead of Zevran to Bob, the NPC DW DPS Warrior (and it's all theorycraft at any rate). You also keep insisting he cannot backstab because he does not have Combat Movement, but that's quite easy to pick up. (Much easier then, for example, getting Lethality to improve Leliana as an archer.) A level 8-10ish character is probably not going to have every skill you really want, anyway.

Basically, it just seems like you hate the auto-level choices to create a combat-focused rogue instead of Device Mastery. And dumb auto-leveling is a universal problem, and Zevran doesn't have it nearly as bad as some. (Oh, Oghren, will you ever learn on your own to love 2-handed sweep?)

[Herr Uhl]

Imrahil_ wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

So, you are saying that he can't do anything cause he can't pick locks.

Saying that he's bad at backstabbing and poisonmaking is just ludicrous..

No, he's just bad at backstabbing.  Apparently if you wait long enough to pick him up he's decent at poison-making, but, honestly, any character can be good at poison-making.

How is he bad at backstabbing? Maybe it is just that I am weird to think that combat movement is pretty much a waste of a talent.

The (to me) bad strength/cunning ratio I grant you though.

[Imrahil_]

FrostyThundertrod wrote...

Zevran can be gotten after 1 treaty I recommend doing the dalish first since you can easily skip most of the side quest and just resolve the main quest and get Zevran at about L7 he is pretty easy to fix then.

In this play-through, I guesstimated the Mages Circle was "quickest" to finish at a low main character level & got him at level 9 (I guessed Mages-Elves-Orzammar, although I believe you that I guessed wrong & that that Elves-Mages-Orzammar is probably best) & couldn't fix him.  I then took him through all the Denerim sidequests I could, then did some superficial Elf-quests (without entering the Ruins) to get xp.

Then I finally took him to Orzammar (figuring the surface quests could fix him).  Now I'm in The Deep Roads, pumping Cunning at every level & choosing Device Mastery at every opportunity & I get "Insufficient Skill" at least 1/2 of the time.  It's frustrating enough to start a whole topic on it.

My first play-through when I knew nothing of the game, completely unspoiled, I took Leliana, went Elves first, & got "Insufficient Skill" like 2-3 times, & only once on the surface (one of the chests near the initial Juggernaut gravestone - a couple more underground).  I was like "I'm gonna come back for those" - imagine my disappointment to get a set of Leather Gloves.

Anyway, this play-through was to take all the characters I hadn't taken before &, lo & behold, I discovered that Zevran Sucks As A Rogue.

[Recidiva]

The thing about Zev is that you need a rogue way before he joins party. So either the PC is the rogue or you go with Leliana or you do without. If you're going to do without a rogue until you get Zev, you still have to level him up considerably before he's going to have enough points into tool use before he is of much benefit as a lock picker.

So unless you want to phase him in somewhere around level 17, when you get tired of Leliana's banter, there's really no point.

Funniest Zev-related incident to me was that he has some starting gear he can't actually wear. So I didn't have him out with me much, and he showed up for the fight with Taliesin as usual and stayed with me. Then when we put on the uniform disguises, he couldn't put his gear back on and went through the whole dungeon naked.

Now I back out of Howe's estate and put him back in camp before trying it again. He's just too easily killed and focused too much on DPS for lots of close-quarters AOE like that dungeon.