103 réponses à ce sujet

[KirbySkywalker]

maybe this has been beaten to death on this forum or another,  but i have been curious about this for a long time and i have never seen a forum about it. 

why is dam near every npc in role playing games white?  does anybody else find this strange or have an opinion on it?

you can say because it takes place in a ficticious european mideval time setting, but IT IS FICTITIOUS in its setting, so you could make the people maroon if you wanted.

even in player creation, you can not create a character dark enough to match the skin tone of many races of peoples on earth.  this is the same with WOW, the darkest skin tones looked like the kardashians skin tone - just a tanned white person or a half and half person at most...

i imagine many characters to play with or to put in mods as npcs.  its really irritating that all i can create is white, tan, or strange jaundice people.

[PoppaB32]

In simplistic terms, NPC's are predominantly white because the games you are playing are of North American and European origin. In Europe for example, ethnic minorities make up just 14% of the population (source: http://en.wikipedia....oples_of_Europe). As design/development houses are in predominantly caucassian locations, this is reflected in their games. Perhaps someone will develop a game where the minority is transformed into the majority? It would certainly be a USP, even if a rather callous one.

[NebulaY]

i guess this also is due to "your local fantasy clichée"

every fantasy-game with elves, dwarves and so on is somehow based on the work of tolkien and he based his work on the norse and celtic legends and myths. there dark skinned people were far away in the south somewhere.. (like the oliphant riders in lord of the rings). and so even if you create a whole new world in your head you still keep this fantasy "base-scheme". you could even blame it to the more or less logical reason that most of the fantasy rpgs play in moderate climate of europe/north america where the skin just doesnt devellop that much melatonin over the centurys.



if you take a look at another mmorpg: age of conan e.g. it is based on the work of another author where he presents most of the people on earth under diffrent names but nevertheless there is a rather big people representig the ancient egypt/nubian area

[Fredericol]

why is there always someone posting about this.



1. Sten is obviously not white, his people will have this color.

2. Ferelden is mostly white, tough luck



Seriously I could care less but obviously this is wow important to some ppl... sheesh make your own mod or something

[KalosCast]

Because every fantasy RPG takes place in an England that magically stopped being an island after the elves showed up.

[Kuldiin]

Here we go again.

Every game its "QQ <<{insert developer}>> hates minorities"

Modifié par Kuldiin, 28 novembre 2009 - 09:56 .

[KalosCast]

Kuldiin wrote...

Here we go again.

Every game its "QQ > hates minorities"

Nobody was saying that until you came along.

[Darkest Dreamer]

There are people who actually live in areas where they stick out like a sore-thumb, even I had to for a good chunk of my teenage years. At no point do I remember thinking, "Wow, this is so wrong..."

Then again, this is probably why it doesn't seem like an issue to me. Now, if everyone was a luminescent green, I might have something to say.


Either way, if it bothers enough people then modding the game so it appears more "colourful" should be no problem from what I've been lead to understand.

KirbySkywalker, I just noticed that this isn't the first time you've posted a thread with this topic...

Modifié par Darkest Dreamer, 28 novembre 2009 - 10:24 .

[purplesunset]

Get out your fire-proof suit, OP, because you're going to get flamed mercilessly by the people on this board. 

You will get accused of:

1. whining about a non-issue

2. bringing up the race card

3. calling Bioware evil racists, even if you don't  mention anything close to that

Aside from the "race card" thing, the number two arguement people will bring up against you is that Dragon Age is all white  because it is realistic for the time period.

The "realism" arguement is pretty weak for two main reasons:

1. There were people of color in medieval europe. There were more people of color in medieval europe than say dragons, elves, hurlocks, ogres,  talking rats etc.

2. If realism was such an issue, why then are there female Grey Wardens? Why are women considered equal to men if realism was such a huge concern for the game developers? The answer is...Bioware had a choice. And they made the decision to not disappoint potential role players by restricting them only to being male for the sake of realism.

Let me quote something that I found in another forum:

"People who create fantasy worlds have the power to have all different races, genders, sexual orientations, etc, and have it not matter.

Just as I think it's GREAT that Bioware created an alternate fantasy world where gender doesn't really matter as much as it did back in medieval Europe, it's also a tad disappointing re: race and that they weren't willing to go there for people of color."




----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Even though you  will still get flamed on this Bioware forum, this topic has come up a lot in DA forums around the internet. Just do a google search for "Dragon Age" + "all white"  or + "black people"

There is a blog about it here:
http://vorpalbunnyra...te-origins.html


There is a thread about it on a white nationalist website here:  

http://www.stormfron...ad.php?t=654037

Modifié par purplesunset, 28 novembre 2009 - 10:47 .

[Darkest Dreamer]

Purplesunset, you have a few flaws in your argument.

purplesunset wrote...

The "realism" arguement is pretty weak for two main reasons:

1. There were people of color in medieval europe. There were more people of color in medieval europe than say dragons, elves, talking rats etc.

Sten is likely one of those people you are referring to and from what I've read there are enough of his people to be a credible threat to the other nations.

2. If realism was such an issue, why then are there female Grey Wardens? Why are women considered equal to men if realism was such a huge concern for the game developers? The answer is...Bioware had a choice. And they made the decision to not disappoint potential role players by restricting them only to being male for the sake of realism.

At several points in the game is it noted that female Grey Wardens are an oddity and the player is looked down upon for being a female warrior.

"People who create fantasy worlds have the power to have all different races, genders, sexual orientations, etc, and have it not matter.

They also have the power to give the races they create distinct differences, such as those between the Qunari, Orlesians, etc.

I apologise but I'd rather a modder simply fix this or Bioware explore the Qunari culture through some DLC rather than have the devs devote time and effort to patching this perceived problem.

Modifié par Darkest Dreamer, 28 novembre 2009 - 10:47 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

Nowhere in Ferelden is there an environment that would promote dark pigmentation. The people of non-white skin tones almost all seem to have come from elsewhere. Maybe not a big deal in the melting-pot world that we live in, but Ferelden seems to be a place that looks down on people trafficking and does not have quick means of travel.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 28 novembre 2009 - 11:36 .

[purplesunset]

Darkest Dreamer wrote...

At several points in the game is it noted that female Grey Wardens are an oddity and the player is looked down upon for being a female warrior.

Perhaps, but the point I was making was that female warriors exist because Bioware felt that giving players that roleplaying option was more important than "realism." I was responding  to the people who keep bringing up the realism argument.

Darkest Dreamer wrote...
I apologise but I'd rather a modder simply fix this or Bioware explore the Qunari culture through some DLC rather than have the devs devote time and effort to patching this perceived problem.

When did I  say it was a problem? I also NEVER said that Bioware should fix this. I keep saying that Bioware has every right to make their world as they see fit. Again, I was only responding to the realism arguement that keeps coming up in these topics.

[Darkest Dreamer]

purplesunset wrote...

Perhaps, but the point I was making was that female warriors exist because Bioware felt that giving players that roleplaying option was more important than "realism." I was responding  to the people who keep bringing up the realism argument.

There are females in every race Purplesunset and while Ferelden might have a few more female warriors than the other nations it's hinted that Orlais practically has none; once again adding to the cultural diversity.

When did I  say it was a problem? I also NEVER said that Bioware should fix this. I keep saying that Bioware has every right to make their world as they see fit. Again, I was only responding to the realism arguement that keeps coming up in these topics.

It was more the tone and the position you took that suggested as much. You basically brushed off all arguments as flaming and proceeded to put words in the mouths of others, including my own.

*Snickers*

But if you want to say that then might I respond in turn by asking, "But where did I say that you said it was a problem?"


All jokes aside and in all honesty, since you were defending the OP with such vigour, I simply assumed that you agreed with him/her. I'm sorry if I misunderstood but you even linked to a "white pride" site coupled with a much more levelheaded argument against Bioware's decision -- not exactly the best comparison if you are feeling undecided.

Modifié par Darkest Dreamer, 28 novembre 2009 - 11:15 .

[purplesunset]

Dark Dreamer:

I understand. I didn't know that my first post above came across so strongly. 

I aplogize, for it wasn't my intent to point fingers, but it was more about defending the thread starter. 

The reason I was trying to defend the OP is because of some of the things that happened the last time a topic of this kind came up. See the Black Human Noble thread on this forum.  People who bring up these topics just tend to get roasted mercilessly, not just here, but see the DA forums on gamespot.

I gave a link to that blog and a link to the white nationalist website in order to show the different ways in which this issue could potentially be interpreted by people.

[ejikvkaske]

KirbySkywalker wrote...
even in player creation, you can not create a character dark enough to match the skin tone of many races of peoples on earth.  this is the same with WOW, the darkest skin tones looked like the kardashians skin tone - just a tanned white person or a half and half person at most...

i imagine many characters to play with or to put in mods as npcs.  its really irritating that all i can create is white, tan, or strange jaundice people.

I'd imagine that if you could create a really dark skinned character, his facial features would be hard to distingush, especially in a dark place, like a cave. Do you want your character's face to be a dark spot with 2 white eyes?

[Darkest Dreamer]

purplesunset wrote...

Dark Dreamer:
I understand. I didn't know that my first post above came across so strongly. 

Honestly, it was only the "whining about a non-issue" that grabbed me as it came directly after mine. First thing I thought was, "I never claimed he was whining!" Sorry, I think I jumped the gun a little in that regard. I have a tendency to forget I'm not the only one involved in these debates.

The reason I was trying to defend the OP is because of some of the things that happened the last time a topic of this kind came up. See the Black Human Noble thread on this forum.  People who bring up these topics just tend to get roasted mercilessly, not just here, but see the DA forums on gamespot.

I know what you mean. It's why I always feel a little tense expressing my position on such matters.

I actually agree that the comparison to medieval Europe is not the best argument. I feel a better one is mentioning the fact that by using skin tones, accents, etc, it adds to the diversity of the game, bringing more life to the world and its people.

Modifié par Darkest Dreamer, 28 novembre 2009 - 12:05 .

[Kuldiin]

KalosCast wrote...

Kuldiin wrote...

Here we go again.

Every game its "QQ > hates minorities"

Nobody was saying that until you came along.

No ofcourse not. The OP must have been referring to the lack of tanning salons in the single player campaign.

[bjdbwea]

Instead of complaining, why not make a mod that incorporates what you want? If turns out to be successful, developers will have an incentive to listen and consider your complaints.

[Kalcalan]

It's not about racism but about creating a believable game world. If in a given game setting most people are white you have to find a justification for including non whites.



Sten is clearly an outsider for instance.



In the Middle Ages Europe wasn't populated by populations that were so ethnically diverse as they are now. To state the obvious, I'd have to point out that transportation took time and it wasn't easy to travel anywhere (the word "travel" itself comes from the French word for "work" i.e. "travail").



If you move away from Europe, the only place where you would have found any real diversity would have been the Holy Land as in medieval times it was already populated by very diverse populations (for obvious reasons).



The setting is fictitious but if everybody in Ferelden was dark skinned then the setting would need a different climate and definitely more sun exposure. As it is now Ferelden looks like a cold and backward place, definitely not the place to go sunbathing.



Let's face it, if the game was taking place in medieval Japan 99% of the characters would be Asian and nobody would complain. Think about Jade Empire which takes place in a Chinese world, how many Caucasians do you have in game? I can think of only one.



Really, complaining about being unable to play a black character in Dragon Age doesn't make more sense than complaining about not being able to play a white character in Jade Empire.

[Few87]

Why does this even matter?

[Kalcalan]

Few87 wrote...

Why does this even matter?

I don't know about others but I'm sick of the racial innuendos.

If RPG developers don't include all possible ethnic groups in a game it is not because they are racist (what these threads seem to be hinting at) but because they work within the constraints of the world they've created. Take Fallout 3 for instance, there is a logical reason for being able to play ethnically diverse characters.

Listening to some people you will end up with polictically correct games that won't make any sense but will appease the people who turn skin colour into a big issue when racism exists in game (tensions between humans, dwarves and elves are good examples of this).

It's an RPG, there is no point in playing a character that looks just like you.

[purplesunset]

Kalcalan wrote...


I don't know about others but I'm sick of the racial innuendos.

If RPG developers don't include all possible ethnic groups in a game it is not because they are racist (what these threads seem to be hinting at) but because they work within the constraints of the world they've created. Take Fallout 3 for instance, there is a logical reason for being able to play ethnically diverse characters.

I completely agree with you that it's not  a racism issue, but at the same time, you have to concede that the people who disagree with the thread starters also contribute towards making it into a racism issue. It's not exactly helpful to the discussion when someone comes in and says something like, "you people always complain about race!!!"

So although, I agree with you, I still understand where the people who
start these threads are coming from, and I wouldn't just dismiss it as
complaining or about people crying racism. There is a bit more to it than that.

Kalcalan wrote...

It's an RPG, there is no point in playing a character that looks just like you.

That is just one opinion though, (even though I myself share that opinion).  There are certainly people who do prefer roleplaying someone who looks like them (I'm not one of them).

Since you brought up Jade Empire, I'll bring up another game that comes up in these topics: GTA San Andreas. Apparently many people had trouble playing a black protagonist, therefore there is a "White CJ" mod.  On one site, it had 40, 000 plus downloads, so it was fairly popular.


Perhaps these threads won't happen if there were more games like Jade Empire. There is an opening out there for an rpg game that is in an African setting.

The problem, though, is that while the knowledge is out there, most people are ignorant of the African settings (myself included), and I don't expect a game developer to put in the effort it would take to educate himself enough about say the Nubian Civilization to be able to carve a game out around the setting.

And since  an all-black setting in an rpg would be something new, it would also involve taking a risk that understandably most developers wouldn't want to take.

So, as has already been pointed out, it's not really about racism,  it's also a matter of developers simply using what they're accustomed to and using what knowledge is  readily accessible to them (medieval European history).

Modifié par purplesunset, 28 novembre 2009 - 02:03 .

[Darkest Dreamer]

Kalcalan wrote...

It's an RPG, there is no point in playing a character that looks just like you.

I disagree. More often than not I actually try to create characters which resemble myself as I find it exhilirating to consider living in such a strange and dangerous world.

[Kalcalan]

purplesunset wrote...

Kalcalan wrote...


I don't know about others but I'm sick of the racial innuendos.

If RPG developers don't include all possible ethnic groups in a game it is not because they are racist (what these threads seem to be hinting at) but because they work within the constraints of the world they've created. Take Fallout 3 for instance, there is a logical reason for being able to play ethnically diverse characters.

I completely agree with you that it's not  a racism issue, but at the same time, you have to concede that the people who disagree with the thread starters also contribute towards making it into a racism issue. It's not exactly helpful to the discussion when someone comes in and says something like, "you people always complain about race!!!"

So although, I agree with you, I still understand where the people who
start these threads are coming from, and I wouldn't just dismiss it as
complaining or about people crying racism. There is a bit more to it than that.

Kalcalan wrote...

It's an RPG, there is no point in playing a character that looks just like you.

That is just one opinion though, (even though I myself share that opinion).  There are certainly people who do prefer roleplaying someone who looks like them (I'm not one of them).

Since you brought up Jade Empire, I'll bring up another game that comes up in these topics: GTA San Andreas. Apparently many people had trouble playing a black protagonist, therefore there is a "White CJ" mod.  On one site, it had 40, 000 plus downloads, so it was fairly popular.


Perhaps these threads won't happen if there were more games like Jade Empire. There is an opening out there for an rpg game that is in an African setting.

The problem, though, is that while the knowledge is out there, most people are ignorant of the African settings (myself included), and I don't expect a game developer to put in the effort it would take to educate himself enough about say the Nubian Civilization to be able to carve a game out around the setting.

And since  an all-black setting in an rpg would be something new, it would also involve taking a risk that understandably most developers wouldn't want to take.

So, as has already been pointed out, it's not really about racism,  it's also a matter of developers simply using what they're accustomed to and using what knowledge is  readily accessible to them (medieval European history).

I'm willing to be convinced provided someone makes a valid point. I just don't like the way that some posters hint that since characters are mostly fair skinned it has to be a racist statement on the game designers's part.

Let's say someone would make a game based on Mel Gibson's movie Apocalypto, there would be no place for non native characters if the story took place before Europeans reached America. Who would complain about being unable to play Europeans then?

Now regarding GTA San Andreas, I've played that game and I would never use a white CJ mod. That would make no sense since there is nothing that would justify CJ being white in the story. To me people who can't play a black CJ just didn't get the story at all. GTA is not a CRPG though but the existence of a white CJ mod only proves the point I'm trying to make.

I'd love being given the opportunity to play a Qunari, that would make a fantastic DLC. But I would be more interested in the character's philosophy and background than in the colour of his skin.

Modifié par Kalcalan, 28 novembre 2009 - 03:00 .

[Kalcalan]

Darkest Dreamer wrote...

Kalcalan wrote...

It's an RPG, there is no point in playing a character that looks just like you.

I disagree. More often than not I actually try to create characters which resemble myself as I find it exhilirating to consider living in such a strange and dangerous world.

If your avatar looks anything like you then I understand.

I don't play characters who look like me not only because they wouldn't look that good but also because I like RPing a totally different person. My current character is a dwarf but I'm rather tall irl. It's about playing a role and I find it more satisfying when my character is very different from the person I am irl.

I don't want to sound judgemental but if you play an RPG as yourself then you're no longer roleplaying.

But I'm just trying to make a point and as long as you enjoy the game I guess it doesn't matter (especially when it comes to playing a single player game).