103 réponses à ce sujet

[wrexingcrew]

OP, thanks for starting this conversation - and purplesunset, your initial post was excellent, thanks. I thought the blog post you linked to was insightful as well.

Kalcalan wrote...



It's an RPG, there is no point in playing a character that looks just like you.

That's exactly the problem - failures of understanding/empathy. I can't tell you how many times (anecdotally) I've seen/heard women and/or people of color express relief about their identity being reflected in a game or disappointment about the lack thereof. I understand that from your perspective on roleplaying it doesn't make sense, but it has much more to do with feeling that you as the player have a place in the game. The family in the human noble origin is a perfect example - anyone playing a POC PC is going to notice the disconnect between their choices about their character and the feedback from the game. As a commenter put it below the blog post purplesunset linked to, it "seems like a conflict between game design and storytelling."



What I frequently find myself suggesting is that it doesn't hurt those of you who don't care about the issue to see developers make strides when it comes to meaningful diversity in games. I don't think anyone's suggesting a quota, so let's nip that straw man in the bud (speaking of things I find, that one almost always comes up). It's a clear industry-wide failure, too, and certainly not restricted to BioWare - if anything, BioWare is an industry leader when it comes to identity in so many respects, and that's why people (including myself) tend to have higher expectations/hopes for BioWare game.

[Kalcalan]

wrexingcrew wrote...

That's exactly the problem - failures of understanding/empathy. I can't tell you how many times (anecdotally) I've seen/heard women and/or people of color express relief about their identity being reflected in a game or disappointment about the lack thereof. I understand that from your perspective on roleplaying it doesn't make sense, but it has much more to do with feeling that you as the player have a place in the game.

So following that logic I should feel good as a Frenchman because the game includes a whole nation made of fops who speak English with a fake French accent?

On a more serious noteI think that it goes far beyond playing a CRPG. You are quite right when you point that it has to do with identity.

It saddens me to think that some persons may be suffering so much from discrimination that they would feel excluded if they couldn't relate (on purely ethnic grounds) to some character in a game.

It is a rather reductive perspective because you end up filtering everything according to one criterion only, i.e. skin colour. I know that it has to do with the OP's concern but if we are to talk about discrimination in real life then we can't overlook the fact that skin colour is certainly not the only factor.

What about religion then? The Chantry and its teachings are clearly reminiscent of Christianity. Does it mean that if I'm not a Christian I can't enjoy the game?

wrexingcrew wrote...

What I frequently find myself suggesting is that it doesn't hurt those of you who don't
care about the issue to see developers make strides when it comes to
meaningful diversity in games. I don't think anyone's suggesting a
quota, so let's nip that straw man in the bud (speaking of things I
find, that one almost always comes up). It's a clear industry-wide
failure, too, and certainly not restricted to BioWare - if anything,
BioWare is an industry leader when it comes to identity in so many
respects, and that's why people (including myself) tend to have higher
expectations/hopes for BioWare game.

Quotas are bad. You can see that in any American TV show they try to represent all major demographics and it feels contrived to say the least (if not hypocritical).

I think that if the story had taken place in Antiva and not Ferelden that wouldn't be such an issue because there would be probably more ethnic diversity in an Antivan setting.

[KalosCast]

There's a very simple explanation to the lack of foreigners in Ferelden



1) Ferelden hasn't been free from Orlais for very long, according to the game lore. Since many people remember a time when they were oppressed by foreign powers, they're not likely to be welcoming of foreigners in general, which is a good enough reason as to why the nation might not be the immigrant hotspot.



2) How many times did you get ambushed by wolves, bandits, and other enemies whilst just travelling around Ferelden? Not likely that many people in the world are going to take travelling lightly. Also considering it takes about 2 weeks to get from Orzammar to the circle tower, which aren't that far apart, immigration is probably something that doesn't happen on a whim around Thedas.

[PoppaB32]

Looking through the posts over the course of today, it's incredible how quick individuals have been to criticise the subject matter and dismiss the OP's view out of hand. That it has taken until page 2 of the thread before anything remotely constructive has been written is a fairly sad inditement; many thanks wrexingcrew for introducing a step-change in the discussion.

[F-C]

we need more games like this :

[koshiee]

most Fantasy novels/games/movies are written by White people and thus their created worlds are populated by white characters. That will continue until white people cease to be the controlling power in the world which depending on how China and India grow may not be for that much longer.

At least Bioware gave you the option to be black or asian. And Bioware did create Jade Empire and has included different race characters throughout their games. While the vast majority of their characters are white heterosexuals I think as far as the games industry goes Bioware is well ahead of the curve which is not as much a compliment to them as much as it is an indictment against the gaming industry as a whole.

[WillyPete2171]

KirbySkywalker wrote...

maybe this has been beaten to death on this forum or another,  but i have been curious about this for a long time and i have never seen a forum about it. 

why is dam near every npc in role playing games white?  does anybody else find this strange or have an opinion on it?

you can say because it takes place in a ficticious european mideval time setting, but IT IS FICTITIOUS in its setting, so you could make the people maroon if you wanted.

even in player creation, you can not create a character dark enough to match the skin tone of many races of peoples on earth.  this is the same with WOW, the darkest skin tones looked like the kardashians skin tone - just a tanned white person or a half and half person at most...

i imagine many characters to play with or to put in mods as npcs.  its really irritating that all i can create is white, tan, or strange jaundice people.

i dont think there is a problem with skin tone...  whatcha talking about Willis?

[Laurelinde]

I don't think there's any indication of any racist intent from Bioware, other games designers, or even Tolkien as the 'founding father' of the genre, so to speak. Tolkien happened to be white, and intrigued with both his own British, and related Scandinavian culture. There is, of course, nothing whatever wrong in exploring this and creating a fantasy world based on it.

The issue, as I see it, is that when games designers are creating a new world they don't necessarily have to be bound by this, and are free to incorporate iconography, customs, mythology, etc. from any number of cultures, as well as totally original ones, into their work. Given how many games there already are and have been which are based around typically 'white', medieval European worlds, I can understand that people not from that background are disappointed that there isn't more integration of their own cultures into new games.

I don't know what the demographics of most RPG players are to know whether non-white people are a tiny minority or a sizable population. Either way, I can imagine that it is easy to feel marginalised when in so many games it's as though you don't exist or aren't important. I understand it's not intended to be an insult, but nobody likes feeling overlooked or ignored, and I expect it feels like just another 'symptom' of a wider issue of being a minority generally, particularly when it would seem easy enough to just make the population of Fereldan very multi-racial and it wouldn't feel especially out of place, since there's a lot of other stuff (like say, dragons) which is far 'weirder' or less realistic.

Modifié par Laurelinde, 28 novembre 2009 - 09:21 .

[Sol Nox]

To me it's not a race card thing, but simply aesthetic. I'm mediterranean, I like to see bronze-ier colour of my tone (and darker) because it's familiar to me and quite simply, aesthetically pleasing in my eyes.



Remember, Bioware's from Canada: the "Mosaic of Cultures", I'm sure they understand the issue fairly well. But in the case of their world, specifically Ferelden, it simply doesn't lend itself to that much diversity in pigmentation. Technically, and geographically it just wouldn't make sense. Logically it seems ridiculous to take offense to that.

To that end, Bioware still tried to make everyone (more or less) happy, giving us all the options of gender, race, complexion. Although I'm happy I can play a character of any race/colour (and yes, my first was close to my skin tone) I found it actually broke my immersion in the story to be treated with equality nearly everywhere. This is more due to gender and race, than colour. The game was actually too PC (politically correct) to be realistic, especially considering all the lore they spent time getting into my head re: elves. My PC got called "knife-ears" maybe 6 times. Idealistic at best, but shows a lack of comprehension towards the issue (which I doubt is the actual case) or simply an unwillingness to delve into it properly.

...Aaaaand I digress. So, colour is a non-issue here. You can actually be whatever but it wouldn't make sense for the world - or rather the part we're exploring - to have the rainbow of skin tones vibrantly represented.

[thebogle5]

Hey, Duncan doesn't look white (kinda brown) and he's the baddest npc in the game!

[purplesunset]

To wrexingcrew and Laurelinde:

I must say that I was pleasantly surprised by  both of your posts. Your balanced perspective and understanding has greatly restored my faith in the possibility of intelligent discourse of this topic on a forum.

[Schyzm]

nowhere is safe from politically correct agitation. not even gaming. such is the depressingly confrontational world we live in.

[Schyzm]

wrexingcrew wrote...

OP, thanks for starting this conversation - and purplesunset, your initial post was excellent, thanks. I thought the blog post you linked to was insightful as well.

Kalcalan wrote...

It's an RPG, there is no point in playing a character that looks just like you.

That's exactly the problem - failures of understanding/empathy. I can't tell you how many times (anecdotally) I've seen/heard women and/or people of color express relief about their identity being reflected in a game or disappointment about the lack thereof. I understand that from your perspective on roleplaying it doesn't make sense, but it has much more to do with feeling that you as the player have a place in the game. The family in the human noble origin is a perfect example - anyone playing a POC PC is going to notice the disconnect between their choices about their character and the feedback from the game. As a commenter put it below the blog post purplesunset linked to, it "seems like a conflict between game design and storytelling."

What I frequently find myself suggesting is that it doesn't hurt those of you who don't care about the issue to see developers make strides when it comes to meaningful diversity in games. I don't think anyone's suggesting a quota, so let's nip that straw man in the bud (speaking of things I find, that one almost always comes up). It's a clear industry-wide failure, too, and certainly not restricted to BioWare - if anything, BioWare is an industry leader when it comes to identity in so many respects, and that's why people (including myself) tend to have higher expectations/hopes for BioWare game.

no1's suggesting a quota, but everytime the quota isn't met people will agitate about the quota that doesn't exist having not been met.

[slash197]

thebogle5 wrote...

Hey, Duncan doesn't look white (kinda brown) and he's the baddest npc in the game!

Yea, Duncan's not white, the Chasind and Ash Warriors aren't white, about half of the Dalish Elves (haven't gotten to the Alienage yet) aren't white, some random villagers aren't white.

There are plenty of dark-skinned characters in the game.

[Darkest Dreamer]

I won't mention any names but many of the people "dismissing" the replies to the OP are creating a circular argument; easy enough to do when you have no counter argument, I'm sure. Some of you are addressing issues which have already been responded to.


Funnily enough, the OP has brought this topic up before while at the same time claiming that they haven't found a single subject on it in the forums...

Anyway, I'm detaching my voice from this loop before I grow dizzy. I'll simply reiterate my position that I'm not too keen on the idea of Bioware working on a patch to fix this. I'd rather see something in the form of DLC, maybe the Qunari perspective taken if we ever see a DA 2, or the like.

And Kalcalan, who says I'm not playing the "role" of myself in a completely different world?

Modifié par Darkest Dreamer, 29 novembre 2009 - 03:24 .

[KCFender]

KirbySkywalker wrote...

maybe this has been beaten to death on this forum or another,  but i have been curious about this for a long time and i have never seen a forum about it. 

why is dam near every npc in role playing games white?  does anybody else find this strange or have an opinion on it?

you can say because it takes place in a ficticious european mideval time setting, but IT IS FICTITIOUS in its setting, so you could make the people maroon if you wanted.

Just because something falls in the category of being "fiction" does not mean that it can or should deviate from what people take as reality. Realistically, when I think of Tolkein-esque fiction, I think of white people. I don't think that's racist. All this stuff originated, before Lord of the Rings, from stuff like Beowulf and The Canterbury Tales. Old European stories. The landscape itself is usually reflective of Europe: cooler climates, mountains, etc.

If this were a game with a Jade Empire aesthetic, it would obviously be weird seeing white people, and in Jade Empire, there weren't any. That was a completely fictional story in an entirely fictional and fantastic landscape, and yet when you play the game and look at what's around you, common-sense will tell you that the people there should look Oriental, as they all do. Even the most fantastic fiction needs to stay grounded. Having an environment like one that is presented in Dragon Age, and populating that environment with a dominant race that isn't Caucasian would just be an unnecessary pitch. It'd require a plot explanation in itself really.

With that said, I'm glad the game does make a point to show that there is a whole world outside Ferelden where no doubt different races and cultures exist. We meet just a few of them in this game, and the differences are subtle, but maybe in the sequel or in some DLC, we'll meet a representative from a very different part of the world, with a very different environment/climate/way-of-living that would naturally produce different physical features and skin pigmentations, or whatever.

But in the cold, rocky, mountainous region of Ferelden with the European-looking houses and music and weaponry... it just makes sense that everyone is "white". And of course, none of this stops you from making your character any color you like, although it might not make much sense within your origin story.

Now, why do the Japanese consistently make role-playing games where all the characters look Caucasian-white, youthful and perfect, while the environments all look like they could very well be from Mars? That, I do not know, but I suspect drugs are involved.

[hexaligned]

Hi.

[astrallite]

Although with Tolkien, the humans in Sauron's armies were all the darker skinned races--Arabs and Indians.

[mufuti7]

These fantasy games usually take place in very Wester European/mild climates, not just the social setting.
If you are visiting jungle regions etc, usually you will find different skintones with the "natives" there.
In the real world, Color pigmentation in skintones has a natural purpose and is not something cosmetic, you may want to read up on it.

And yes, these games use a medieval setting. Globalisation -----> that way.

koshiee wrote...

most Fantasy novels/games/movies are
written by White people and thus their created worlds are populated by
white characters. That will continue until white people cease to be the
controlling power in the world which depending on how China and India
grow may not be for that much longer. 

I am not racistin any way but I have to comment on this if you are throwing China andIndia into the mix - Because they are industrial powers and are growing both in industrial strength and population numbers...but that is it.

Novels, games, movies will still be written by White People. Just because the power of production shifts does not mean culture will change. It is not like the Western World forces its standards onto the rest of the world. I wish
it was true sometimes at least in certain regards because especially China  (and a lot of other countries on this world obviously)might want to think about the implementation of human rights and freedom of speech a little more.

Cultural differences will prevail, just because Chinas GPD might overcome the US does not mean we will adapt culture, in fact nothing at all will change. Western people will still prefer Western gaming and Asian gamers will prefer their own gaming.  Chinese food is very tasty though :-)=

Modifié par mufuti7, 29 novembre 2009 - 05:24 .

[Lord Phoebus]

Well they probably could have gone darker with the Antivans, I get an Arabian Nights vibe from them talking to Zevran.



They definitely went for Celtic/Norse/Norman vibe with the setting, so I suppose it fits. Although they could have extended racial diversity easily enough through slave trade in the Tevinter Empire. I.e., after it was defeated slaves of different races were still spread across the lands it once controlled. But they made the decisions they made and there isn't much point in griping about it. There's no reason to believe that the sequel would be in Ferelden, maybe it will be in a more ethnically diverse area.

[Krogan Face]

<------------ look! I made my character as dark as possible. I played an elf as u may see and i think there was only one other elf even remotly dark in the game ( it was that elf chick sitting next to the camp fire in the Bacilian forest camp) kinda disaponted me since dark skin was an option to choose in the character editor. /shrug

[Kalcalan]

Duncan is definitely tanned that's true. If by white we mean albino then most characters are in fact dark skinned.



If game designers were to respect real world demographics then most characters would have to be Asian... Still, Ferelden is not located in Asia but in some sort of fantastic medieval Europe (hence the point I've tried to make about Jade Empire).



@Darkest Dreamer: touché! A Qunari DLC would be great indeed.



@KCFender: I don't want to nitpick as I tend to agree with you but you had at least one white character in Jade Empire (the stranger in the park). Off topic -your avatar looks really weird (in a cool way) you've put the toolset to good use, well done.



@Lord Phoebus: I'm convinced that if the story had taken place in Antiva there would have been more characters with dark(er) skintones.



Looking at some of the avatars in this thread I guess the OP will agree that it is possible to make a very good dark skinned face for your character.

[Sarevok Anchev]

KirbySkywalker wrote...

maybe this has been beaten to death on this forum or another,  but i have been curious about this for a long time and i have never seen a forum about it. 

why is dam near every npc in role playing games white?  does anybody else find this strange or have an opinion on it?

you can say because it takes place in a ficticious european mideval time setting, but IT IS FICTITIOUS in its setting, so you could make the people maroon if you wanted.

even in player creation, you can not create a character dark enough to match the skin tone of many races of peoples on earth.  this is the same with WOW, the darkest skin tones looked like the kardashians skin tone - just a tanned white person or a half and half person at most...

i imagine many characters to play with or to put in mods as npcs.  its really irritating that all i can create is white, tan, or strange jaundice people.

?HuH? 
*slowlysneakingaway*

[phordicus]

black folk don't play RPGs!







/sarcasm

[KirbySkywalker]

bottom line is, i would like to see more representation of all the people of the world in these games. its not hard for developers to do. i see some intelligent people agree with me while others of you are idiots. but i paid for the game so why should they change it. its just not cost effective. that is all that matters once a company like EA gets involved. they sacrifice the passion for the cash-in.