Well it's decided! Bioware is racist!
Someone call Al Sharpton and form a line so that everyone may kiss his hind quarters and apologize.
NPC skintone in RPGs
Débuté par
KirbySkywalker
, nov. 28 2009 09:10
Retour en haut
#77
Posté 30 novembre 2009 - 02:05
bjlinden
-
- Members
- 3 messages
@purplesunset
Your anti-realism argument, unfortunately, doesn't really hold water, at least not in the case of Ferelden.
You're right, the creators of a fictional world DO have the power to alter their world as they see fit, and you're right that Bioware (and many other game designers) have done just that with female warriors, primarily to appease their customers. However, they didn't just throw female warriors into the game willy-nilly; if you play one, the game makes sure to hammer in the fact, time and time again, that your character is NOT the norm.
If they really want to create a believable world, they would have to do essentially the same thing with races. However, they'd need to go a step further. A female warrior can have more or less the same background as a male warrior, just with a few dialogue options added in here and there about how they didn't expect you to be a woman, or whatever. But if your race doesn't fit in with the setting, they'd need to come up with an actual explaination for how you and your people GOT there in the first place. Basically, they'd have to come up with an entirely new origin story. They had to cut at least one origin story, and only include three races as it is, because they wanted those origins to be fully fleshed out. As cool as it might be to have a Qunari or Chasind origin, would you really have them cut out even more just so a few players can look a little more like their character?
A simple pallette swap for your parents might work in a game like Fallout 3, where the population is a melting pot of whoever managed to survive in the DC area, but it doesn't work in a world that's supposed to more or less emulate medieval Europe. It might even work in a more action-based fantasy game, with less of a focus on creating a believable game world. It might even work in a story-heavy game where your character's past is more mysterious. (Lord knows, that's probably a big part of why so many game characters are either orphans or have only one parent...) But in a game like DAO, a story-centric game where your character has a distinct origin, it just doesn't make sense.
Your anti-realism argument, unfortunately, doesn't really hold water, at least not in the case of Ferelden.
You're right, the creators of a fictional world DO have the power to alter their world as they see fit, and you're right that Bioware (and many other game designers) have done just that with female warriors, primarily to appease their customers. However, they didn't just throw female warriors into the game willy-nilly; if you play one, the game makes sure to hammer in the fact, time and time again, that your character is NOT the norm.
If they really want to create a believable world, they would have to do essentially the same thing with races. However, they'd need to go a step further. A female warrior can have more or less the same background as a male warrior, just with a few dialogue options added in here and there about how they didn't expect you to be a woman, or whatever. But if your race doesn't fit in with the setting, they'd need to come up with an actual explaination for how you and your people GOT there in the first place. Basically, they'd have to come up with an entirely new origin story. They had to cut at least one origin story, and only include three races as it is, because they wanted those origins to be fully fleshed out. As cool as it might be to have a Qunari or Chasind origin, would you really have them cut out even more just so a few players can look a little more like their character?
A simple pallette swap for your parents might work in a game like Fallout 3, where the population is a melting pot of whoever managed to survive in the DC area, but it doesn't work in a world that's supposed to more or less emulate medieval Europe. It might even work in a more action-based fantasy game, with less of a focus on creating a believable game world. It might even work in a story-heavy game where your character's past is more mysterious. (Lord knows, that's probably a big part of why so many game characters are either orphans or have only one parent...) But in a game like DAO, a story-centric game where your character has a distinct origin, it just doesn't make sense.
#78
Posté 30 novembre 2009 - 03:46
Inakhia
-
- Members
- 123 messages
Race is in the game. Fereldens are mostly white, but there is still a large variety of skin tone amongst them. Like england its had several waves of conquerors to 'inject' a little genetic diversity.
The templar in lothering is hardly 'white', Duncan has a definate persian look to him and there's the girl in the market place in Denerim thats quite asian looking.
As for the CC, if you haven't discovered that it has preset racial types in there already... then I can't do anything short of reaching through the screen and smacking you over the head.
My char is a slight tweaking of the asian premade from the CC. There was black, bronze/indian and several varieties of white. I made a mage with black skin and red hair. (Magic makes the best hair dyes!) The CC is pretty powerful, you just need a willingness to sit down and tweak away and not just pout and demand someone hand you your 'perfect' character.
The templar in lothering is hardly 'white', Duncan has a definate persian look to him and there's the girl in the market place in Denerim thats quite asian looking.
As for the CC, if you haven't discovered that it has preset racial types in there already... then I can't do anything short of reaching through the screen and smacking you over the head.
My char is a slight tweaking of the asian premade from the CC. There was black, bronze/indian and several varieties of white. I made a mage with black skin and red hair. (Magic makes the best hair dyes!) The CC is pretty powerful, you just need a willingness to sit down and tweak away and not just pout and demand someone hand you your 'perfect' character.
#79
Posté 30 novembre 2009 - 04:04
Inakhia
-
- Members
- 123 messages
I'm hoping in the sequel we move to Orlais, and the racial basic will be the olive complexion with the smattering of paler and darker extremes. Warmer environment would open up a much darker skin tone as the predominant complexion, plus I'm biased, but I've always preferred the olive/bronze and darker skin tones to white. Leaving the pale skin Ferelden's to be the exotic minority.
#80
Posté 30 novembre 2009 - 05:03
Kela_Ravenwood
-
- Members
- 15 messages
The thing is Ferelden isn't even European, it is Just the Brittish isles, glued together, and connected to mainland europe, and then the whole think flipped upsidedown. If you are a believer in Science and anthropology in particular, then you have to say that the natives of Ferlden look exsactly like they should look for the climate and geology of the reagon.
#81
Posté 30 novembre 2009 - 05:38
telephasic
-
- Members
- 249 messages
Duncan may be biracial (in an Earth sense), given one of his parents was from Rivain. We know people from Rivain are dark-skinned, but we never see a full-blooded one, so we don't know if they look more like Indians, or Africans.
I agree it would have been nice to have some explicitly non-white humans. IMHO, there were no non-white humans really - just people a bit swarthier in skin tone, particularly in Denerim (minus the one Orlesian woman who looked Asian - that was odd). It's not that different from Britain really, where you can find some quite dark people in London, who are presumably in part the descendants of the Roman population of the city.
But to ask for tons of people of color is I think falsely universalizing the modern concept of "race," in particular its American version. Medieval Europe did not have a real concept of race. Non-whites, when they migrated, were such a tiny minority they were looked on as curiosities rather than threats. Ultimately, they all assimilated and interbred. The same thing kept happening in Europe even after the beginning of the slave trade. Genetic studies have shown that Europe's old black population has seamlessly disappeared into the general genepool - most Europeans actually have some black blood - far more than white Americans actually.
In Ferelden, the same would be true, except since Dwarves, Elves, and Qunari exist, a human with a dramatically different skin tone/hair texture would be given even less attention. If they had a "sailor" or "traveling merchant" origin, it might make sense, given you could be the first or second generation of a immigrant family. But there's no way Ferelden would have an indigenous black-looking minority, judging by what we know about the history of the land.
I agree it would have been nice to have some explicitly non-white humans. IMHO, there were no non-white humans really - just people a bit swarthier in skin tone, particularly in Denerim (minus the one Orlesian woman who looked Asian - that was odd). It's not that different from Britain really, where you can find some quite dark people in London, who are presumably in part the descendants of the Roman population of the city.
But to ask for tons of people of color is I think falsely universalizing the modern concept of "race," in particular its American version. Medieval Europe did not have a real concept of race. Non-whites, when they migrated, were such a tiny minority they were looked on as curiosities rather than threats. Ultimately, they all assimilated and interbred. The same thing kept happening in Europe even after the beginning of the slave trade. Genetic studies have shown that Europe's old black population has seamlessly disappeared into the general genepool - most Europeans actually have some black blood - far more than white Americans actually.
In Ferelden, the same would be true, except since Dwarves, Elves, and Qunari exist, a human with a dramatically different skin tone/hair texture would be given even less attention. If they had a "sailor" or "traveling merchant" origin, it might make sense, given you could be the first or second generation of a immigrant family. But there's no way Ferelden would have an indigenous black-looking minority, judging by what we know about the history of the land.
#82
Posté 30 novembre 2009 - 01:56
purplesunset
-
- Members
- 334 messages
bjlinden, Inakhia, and telephasic
Thank you for your contributions to this topic. (interesting history lesson, telephasic).
As I keep trying to emphasize (and failing miserably apparently), I am actually a NEUTRAL party in this. I personally would make a white character in Dragon Age because that fits the Caucasion-only setting that Bioware created in Ferelden. That is pretty much exactly what I told the person who last started a thread on this topic (about playing a black human noble).
However, I am playing devil's advocate here for argument's sake because I do think that this topic deserves a more intelligent and meaningful discussion than the the type that usually occurs. When threads like this start up they are:
1. asked to be locked down immediately OR
2. the OP is flamed away and called troll, or accused of pulling the race card.
Not just on Bioware's forums, but every single website where anyone tries to start a discussion on this topic.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we read the posts that took the time to explore the topic on a deeper level beyond the kneejerk reactions, some of the good points that were brought up in this thread include:
1. It would take some effort on Bioware's part to incorporate different skin colors into a setting which is already a homogenous, all-white setting. It's better if they spend their time on something else like bug fixing.
It would also be silly to expect the developers to just start randomly sprinkling in different skin colors for the heck of it. If they made a Caucasion-only setting, then that is what it is. The player has to either make a character that fits the setting or risk sticking out like a sore thumb.
2. Perhaps it is time that game developers start exploring more settings like the one in Jade Empire, or the unexplored avenue of an African setting in an rpg.
Morrowind was brought up as an example of a game where the developers took the effort to create a unique, and interesting world in which different skin colors made sense. People travelled frequently in Morrowind's world (remember the Silt Striders
)
Dragon Age is simply not that kind of game; the setting is one in which there is less travel (there are no Silt Striders in DA, heh :happy:) and the individual regions are homogeneous (Qunari-only, Fereldan-only etc.)
There is also an apparent difference between Morrowind and Oblivion. Some complain that Oblivion's setting was a much more boring, generic fantasy than Morrowind's unique world.
3. In a later expansion, Bioware could possibly use one of the settings outside of Ferelden which feature darker-skinned people. This also came up in the suggestions thread, though. Remember, they are not obligated to do it.
Thank you for your contributions to this topic. (interesting history lesson, telephasic).
As I keep trying to emphasize (and failing miserably apparently), I am actually a NEUTRAL party in this. I personally would make a white character in Dragon Age because that fits the Caucasion-only setting that Bioware created in Ferelden. That is pretty much exactly what I told the person who last started a thread on this topic (about playing a black human noble).
However, I am playing devil's advocate here for argument's sake because I do think that this topic deserves a more intelligent and meaningful discussion than the the type that usually occurs. When threads like this start up they are:
1. asked to be locked down immediately OR
2. the OP is flamed away and called troll, or accused of pulling the race card.
Not just on Bioware's forums, but every single website where anyone tries to start a discussion on this topic.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we read the posts that took the time to explore the topic on a deeper level beyond the kneejerk reactions, some of the good points that were brought up in this thread include:
1. It would take some effort on Bioware's part to incorporate different skin colors into a setting which is already a homogenous, all-white setting. It's better if they spend their time on something else like bug fixing.
It would also be silly to expect the developers to just start randomly sprinkling in different skin colors for the heck of it. If they made a Caucasion-only setting, then that is what it is. The player has to either make a character that fits the setting or risk sticking out like a sore thumb.
2. Perhaps it is time that game developers start exploring more settings like the one in Jade Empire, or the unexplored avenue of an African setting in an rpg.
Morrowind was brought up as an example of a game where the developers took the effort to create a unique, and interesting world in which different skin colors made sense. People travelled frequently in Morrowind's world (remember the Silt Striders
)Dragon Age is simply not that kind of game; the setting is one in which there is less travel (there are no Silt Striders in DA, heh :happy:) and the individual regions are homogeneous (Qunari-only, Fereldan-only etc.)
There is also an apparent difference between Morrowind and Oblivion. Some complain that Oblivion's setting was a much more boring, generic fantasy than Morrowind's unique world.
3. In a later expansion, Bioware could possibly use one of the settings outside of Ferelden which feature darker-skinned people. This also came up in the suggestions thread, though. Remember, they are not obligated to do it.
Modifié par purplesunset, 30 novembre 2009 - 02:01 .
#83
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 03:17
SheffSteel
-
- Members
- 1 231 messages
Bioware could have written a history that would result in a Ferelden with an ethnic makeup like modern America.... or anywhere else, for that matter. For whatever reasons, they went with something that resulted in only subtle differences between the people you see. So here we are.
What can we do?
The problem with the game world as it is now is that there's no place in the culture for darker skinned people at all - at least, not without Bioware dropping some completely new history and lore upon us from a great height. Modders can create characters with skin which is black or purple or blue, but until they also create a world full of characters who will react with the surprise, curiosity, and myriad other reactions you might expect, such an exercise will always detract from the believability and integrity of the world (note that I'm avoiding the word 'realism' since many forum-goers get tripped up over its implications in a fantasy game).
What can we do?
The problem with the game world as it is now is that there's no place in the culture for darker skinned people at all - at least, not without Bioware dropping some completely new history and lore upon us from a great height. Modders can create characters with skin which is black or purple or blue, but until they also create a world full of characters who will react with the surprise, curiosity, and myriad other reactions you might expect, such an exercise will always detract from the believability and integrity of the world (note that I'm avoiding the word 'realism' since many forum-goers get tripped up over its implications in a fantasy game).
#84
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 03:46
Vergil_dgk
-
- Members
- 280 messages
Purple sunset wrote
"To illustrate my point again:
Imagine that a company designs a game where you could only create male warriors and the settign was male-only. Their reasoning for this is that it is realistic and women are too weak to survive in the harsh, war-like setting that they created."
I don't think that is quite comparable to the race/colour scenario: no rpg-company (that I know of) are saying other races are inferior to caucasians and couldn't survive among them. They're just setting the game in a European-medieval style setting where most people are caucasians. It'd be nice if there was more variation in setting, and I would personally love to play an rpg that took place in Africa and dealt with African-style mythology and themes (just like I enjoyed playing Jade Empire), because the faux-England thing has really been done to death. Hell I'd love it if someone did a good Scandinavian one too and I could play through the (faux) history of my own ancestors. But I guess the companies normally (and somewhat sadly) choose to go the safe and recognizable medieval-Britain route and for that I personally would find it strange to see a mix of all cultures living side by side all over the places like the rainbow children or something.
"To illustrate my point again:
Imagine that a company designs a game where you could only create male warriors and the settign was male-only. Their reasoning for this is that it is realistic and women are too weak to survive in the harsh, war-like setting that they created."
I don't think that is quite comparable to the race/colour scenario: no rpg-company (that I know of) are saying other races are inferior to caucasians and couldn't survive among them. They're just setting the game in a European-medieval style setting where most people are caucasians. It'd be nice if there was more variation in setting, and I would personally love to play an rpg that took place in Africa and dealt with African-style mythology and themes (just like I enjoyed playing Jade Empire), because the faux-England thing has really been done to death. Hell I'd love it if someone did a good Scandinavian one too and I could play through the (faux) history of my own ancestors. But I guess the companies normally (and somewhat sadly) choose to go the safe and recognizable medieval-Britain route and for that I personally would find it strange to see a mix of all cultures living side by side all over the places like the rainbow children or something.
#85
Posté 02 décembre 2009 - 01:31
Inakhia
-
- Members
- 123 messages
Move the next sequel to Antiva and I suspect you will get a more broad racial colour schema to play with. I think I was mixing up Antiva and Orlais above. You've got ties to the previous story with Zevran, and probably in an area that has more genetic diversity if its at all like the Mediterranean region, with a long history of major trade routes going through there. Lots of culture mixing and clashing and it would make a nice change of scenery from Ferelden's cold grey english countryside.
#86
Posté 02 décembre 2009 - 02:02
FlatCat
-
- Members
- 53 messages
The simple inclusion of dreadlocks and cornrows completely destroys any argument that Ferelden is "white" much less "medeival europe." The setting of Dragon Age is "frozen" their tech level is only on the surface "medieval" their conventions are very modern. But considering how old special armor like the Juggernaut is and yet resembles the design of what's available in the present time "medieval" doesn't represent Dragon Age. It's just your standard fantasy fare of unmoving tech across centuries. Also Humans are not native to the entire area they were already mixed up since they supplanted the elves living there. Speaking of which said elves come in a variety of colors despite being of the same area. So even if black people couldn't move there they could still be born there as humans and elves make humans so black elf + human gets black human. Dwarves come in different races as well despite all being underground literally ALL the time.
Edit: Oh and I have to roll my eyes everytime someone whines about political correctness. Look at the upcoming Avatar the Airbender live action movie. The fantasy story was directly lifted from Asian/Inuit cultures and included real Chinese language, traditional clothing, martial arts etc, and yes Asian people and yet in the movie every hero character is white and the antagonistic Fire Nation is full of scary "brown people" from Indians to Mexicans to Arabs. Al Sharpton is not perfect but if black folks didn't ride your a double s all the time they would be screwed over like Asian folk who apparently don't complain enough.
Edit: Oh and I have to roll my eyes everytime someone whines about political correctness. Look at the upcoming Avatar the Airbender live action movie. The fantasy story was directly lifted from Asian/Inuit cultures and included real Chinese language, traditional clothing, martial arts etc, and yes Asian people and yet in the movie every hero character is white and the antagonistic Fire Nation is full of scary "brown people" from Indians to Mexicans to Arabs. Al Sharpton is not perfect but if black folks didn't ride your a double s all the time they would be screwed over like Asian folk who apparently don't complain enough.
Modifié par FlatCat, 02 décembre 2009 - 02:12 .
#87
Posté 02 décembre 2009 - 04:07
Hierarch555
-
- Members
- 31 messages
I would play an African mythology based rpg in an instant. Hell, I still have to finish Jade Empire.
#88
Posté 02 décembre 2009 - 05:06
Schyzm
-
- Members
- 344 messages
FlatCat wrote...
The simple inclusion of dreadlocks and cornrows completely destroys any argument that Ferelden is "white" much less "medeival europe." The setting of Dragon Age is "frozen" their tech level is only on the surface "medieval" their conventions are very modern. But considering how old special armor like the Juggernaut is and yet resembles the design of what's available in the present time "medieval" doesn't represent Dragon Age. It's just your standard fantasy fare of unmoving tech across centuries. Also Humans are not native to the entire area they were already mixed up since they supplanted the elves living there. Speaking of which said elves come in a variety of colors despite being of the same area. So even if black people couldn't move there they could still be born there as humans and elves make humans so black elf + human gets black human. Dwarves come in different races as well despite all being underground literally ALL the time.
Edit: Oh and I have to roll my eyes everytime someone whines about political correctness. Look at the upcoming Avatar the Airbender live action movie. The fantasy story was directly lifted from Asian/Inuit cultures and included real Chinese language, traditional clothing, martial arts etc, and yes Asian people and yet in the movie every hero character is white and the antagonistic Fire Nation is full of scary "brown people" from Indians to Mexicans to Arabs. Al Sharpton is not perfect but if black folks didn't ride your a double s all the time they would be screwed over like Asian folk who apparently don't complain enough.
yah if only asians learned to act like blacks then they could climb that ladder up to where the blacks are...lolololololololololololololol.
holy crap you're gna give me an injury from me falling out my chair.
#89
Guest_spellNotFoundException_*
Posté 02 décembre 2009 - 05:18
Guest_spellNotFoundException_*
Guest_spellNotFoundException_*
-
- Guests
not a complaint but I actually thought bioware was creative enough to make the game "reads" the skintone of your character and adusts your parents accordingly by the same or 1 shade lighter or darker.
I do not think that was the case but I do not care. Adoption happens.
no seriously im not complaining, just i remember thinking about the race issues vs. the couslands for instance and said to myself "well what happens if my character was of x-color"
it could be green or purple too but that be very odd
sure a mod can do this later on... maybe.
I do not think that was the case but I do not care. Adoption happens.
no seriously im not complaining, just i remember thinking about the race issues vs. the couslands for instance and said to myself "well what happens if my character was of x-color"
it could be green or purple too but that be very odd
sure a mod can do this later on... maybe.
#90
Posté 02 décembre 2009 - 05:23
ejikvkaske
-
- Members
- 99 messages
To be honest I think the "the dark skinned people aren't dark enough" argument is a bit silly. Let me elaborate.
First of all, many of the characters aren't even human. Complaining that there are no black elves is soft of like complaining why there aren't any black Mabaris in DA:O. Whose to say that there should be?
Now, moving on to the actual humans. Several posters complained that the Human Noble origin forced your character to be white. So what? The Human Noble origin is made to be very specific. For example, it does not make sense create a human warrior who is anything but a young noble. Hell, you can't even create a commoner. To me that's more important then skin color.
On the other hand, the Mage origin is as ambiguous as possible. What's stopping you from playing a black mage?
Now, I've played around with the CC and in my opinion it's possible create distinctly "african" looking characters. Sure, you don't have the darkest skin tones, but then again you don't have the lightest either. I know people who in real life are paler then anything you can find in the CC. Why is there no complaints about that?
Furthermore, I think that the CC is much worse at creating "asian" characters then "african" ones. If you don't believe me, try to create a character who looks like Jackie Chan and see what you get. Oh, and how many "asians" do you meet in Fereldin? Because as we all know, there are a lot more asians in the world.
I'm sorry, but arguments like "why are there so many caucasians?" is a world based on European mythology reek of pointless political correctness. I'm happy that Bioware did not turn Fereldin into a scale model representation of the US demographic, meaning 15% have to be hispanic, 13% black, etc. Would anyone here really want that?
First of all, many of the characters aren't even human. Complaining that there are no black elves is soft of like complaining why there aren't any black Mabaris in DA:O. Whose to say that there should be?
Now, moving on to the actual humans. Several posters complained that the Human Noble origin forced your character to be white. So what? The Human Noble origin is made to be very specific. For example, it does not make sense create a human warrior who is anything but a young noble. Hell, you can't even create a commoner. To me that's more important then skin color.
On the other hand, the Mage origin is as ambiguous as possible. What's stopping you from playing a black mage?
Now, I've played around with the CC and in my opinion it's possible create distinctly "african" looking characters. Sure, you don't have the darkest skin tones, but then again you don't have the lightest either. I know people who in real life are paler then anything you can find in the CC. Why is there no complaints about that?
Furthermore, I think that the CC is much worse at creating "asian" characters then "african" ones. If you don't believe me, try to create a character who looks like Jackie Chan and see what you get. Oh, and how many "asians" do you meet in Fereldin? Because as we all know, there are a lot more asians in the world.
I'm sorry, but arguments like "why are there so many caucasians?" is a world based on European mythology reek of pointless political correctness. I'm happy that Bioware did not turn Fereldin into a scale model representation of the US demographic, meaning 15% have to be hispanic, 13% black, etc. Would anyone here really want that?
Modifié par ejikvkaske, 02 décembre 2009 - 05:34 .
#91
Posté 02 décembre 2009 - 05:46
FlatCat
-
- Members
- 53 messages
There ARE black elves.
You see a couple in the opening shot and one using a washboard later to the right. Not to mention there's one with freakin' cornrows with a dread ponytail. You see that hairdo in your damn "european mythology?" LOL?
Yes blacks have their dignity and get people to listen to their grievances. They are further up the ladder. That "model minority" b.s. is just that. Bull feces.
You see a couple in the opening shot and one using a washboard later to the right. Not to mention there's one with freakin' cornrows with a dread ponytail. You see that hairdo in your damn "european mythology?" LOL?
Schyzm wrote...
yah if only asians learned to act like blacks then they could climb that ladder up to where the blacks are...lolololololololololololololol.
holy crap you're gna give me an injury from me falling out my chair.
Yes blacks have their dignity and get people to listen to their grievances. They are further up the ladder. That "model minority" b.s. is just that. Bull feces.
#92
Posté 02 décembre 2009 - 06:00
Lughsan35
-
- Members
- 491 messages
Ps..black people also 'lighten up' when the environment is not very sunny for very long most of the year....ejikvkaske wrote...
To be honest I think the "the dark skinned people aren't dark enough" argument is a bit silly. Let me elaborate.
First of all, many of the characters aren't even human. Complaining that there are no black elves is soft of like complaining why there aren't any black Mabaris in DA:O. Whose to say that there should be?
Now, moving on to the actual humans. Several posters complained that the Human Noble origin forced your character to be white. So what? The Human Noble origin is made to be very specific. For example, it does not make sense create a human warrior who is anything but a young noble. Hell, you can't even create a commoner. To me that's more important then skin color.
On the other hand, the Mage origin is as ambiguous as possible. What's stopping you from playing a black mage?
Now, I've played around with the CC and in my opinion it's possible create distinctly "african" looking characters. Sure, you don't have the darkest skin tones, but then again you don't have the lightest either. I know people who in real life are paler then anything you can find in the CC. Why is there no complaints about that?
Furthermore, I think that the CC is much worse at creating "asian" characters then "african" ones. If you don't believe me, try to create a character who looks like Jackie Chan and see what you get. Oh, and how many "asians" do you meet in Fereldin? Because as we all know, there are a lot more asians in the world.
I'm sorry, but arguments like "why are there so many caucasians?" is a world based on European mythology reek of pointless political correctness. I'm happy that Bioware did not turn Fereldin into a scale model representation of the US demographic, meaning 15% have to be hispanic, 13% black, etc. Would anyone here really want that?
Double Ps.. black people of earth hate the cold. Assume the black people of Thedas also hate the cold and live where its warmer.
#93
Posté 02 décembre 2009 - 06:07
ejikvkaske
-
- Members
- 99 messages
That's really clever. Dreadlocks change everything.FlatCat wrote...
There ARE black elves.
You see a couple in the opening shot and one using a washboard later to the right. Not to mention there's one with freakin' cornrows with a dread ponytail. You see that hairdo in your damn "european mythology?" LOL?
Having said that, I'm actually a bit miffed that Bioware followed through with the "European" there in equipment designs. For instance, pretty much all the swords I found were straight double edged. I've only found 1 sword with any resemblance to a scimitar, and nothing even close to a katana. Same goes for bows, armor, etc.
#94
Posté 02 décembre 2009 - 06:24
Schyzm
-
- Members
- 344 messages
FlatCat wrote...
There ARE black elves.
You see a couple in the opening shot and one using a washboard later to the right. Not to mention there's one with freakin' cornrows with a dread ponytail. You see that hairdo in your damn "european mythology?" LOL?Schyzm wrote...
yah if only asians learned to act like blacks then they could climb that ladder up to where the blacks are...lolololololololololololololol.
holy crap you're gna give me an injury from me falling out my chair.
Yes blacks have their dignity and get people to listen to their grievances. They are further up the ladder. That "model minority" b.s. is just that. Bull feces.
yes all asians have going for them is the highest per capita income in the united states. what's that up against grievance mongering? man I know if I was asian I'd be thinking "damn those blacks have it good."
#95
Posté 02 décembre 2009 - 06:52
FlatCat
-
- Members
- 53 messages
Schyzm wrote...
yes all asians have going for them is the highest per capita income in the united states. what's that up against grievance mongering? man I know if I was asian I'd be thinking "damn those blacks have it good."
Money doesn't buy respect or a strong community. Income numbers are inflated because there are more Asians per household per capita income is lower especially when you consider qualifications. Asians have trouble accessing leadership positions even if they do have good jobs. Not to mention many Asian communites are extremely poor. The Hmongs for instance who got screwed over in Vietnam war by the U.S. suffer through poverty. Asians that are successful come from families who were successful enough in their home countries and brought capital over sometimes by selling everything they had. While others are not so lucky and are trapped in a vicious cycle of poverty. Asians suffer from propetual foreigner syndrome. Vincent Chin murdered because of fear of Japanese business in the 80's his attackers got off VERY light. Wen Ho Lee accused of spying in the late nineties when it was China's turn. Violence, bullying, emasculation, lack of role models the Asian American community is weak. John McCain can say something like "I will always hate the ****s" and remain a viable Presidential candidate while Trent Lott makes an offhanded comment at Strom Thurmond's birthday and has to resign. That's power. REAL power. And it comes because African Americans are willing to go out and fight for their human dignity.
#96
Posté 02 décembre 2009 - 07:14
Schyzm
-
- Members
- 344 messages
FlatCat wrote...
Schyzm wrote...
yes all asians have going for them is the highest per capita income in the united states. what's that up against grievance mongering? man I know if I was asian I'd be thinking "damn those blacks have it good."
Money doesn't buy respect or a strong community. Income numbers are inflated because there are more Asians per household per capita income is lower especially when you consider qualifications. Asians have trouble accessing leadership positions even if they do have good jobs. Not to mention many Asian communites are extremely poor. The Hmongs for instance who got screwed over in Vietnam war by the U.S. suffer through poverty. Asians that are successful come from families who were successful enough in their home countries and brought capital over sometimes by selling everything they had. While others are not so lucky and are trapped in a vicious cycle of poverty. Asians suffer from propetual foreigner syndrome. Vincent Chin murdered because of fear of Japanese business in the 80's his attackers got off VERY light. Wen Ho Lee accused of spying in the late nineties when it was China's turn. Violence, bullying, emasculation, lack of role models the Asian American community is weak. John McCain can say something like "I will always hate the ****s" and remain a viable Presidential candidate while Trent Lott makes an offhanded comment at Strom Thurmond's birthday and has to resign. That's power. REAL power. And it comes because African Americans are willing to go out and fight for their human dignity.
"According to a new Census Bureau study, more than eight out of 10 Asian-American children in the United States live with both parents, which is significantly higher than any other racial or ethnic group. "
"Asian Americans had the highest graduation rate among all ethnic groups in 1995, the most recent year for which data were available, according to a report released here last week by the American Council on Education. "
yah those asians are barely getting by. I think its rather hilarious you talk about "lack of role models" considering the vast success of asians. Do you even know what role models are for?
here's a quick rundown of asian-americans. They have the second lowest highschool dropout rate, the highest rate of skilled occupation, the highest rate of college degree(by like 15% too), the lowest divorce rate, the second highest homeowner rate, the highest median income, the second lowest in poverty and the second lowest on public assistance. Compared to blacks who have astronomic incarceration rates, high teen pregnancy rates, high dropout rates, abysmal college graduation rates, high divorce rates, very low median income, nearly a quarter live in poverty....i mean the list just goes on and on.
I actually think its mildly offensive to prosperity and humanity that you put so much emphasis on the ability of an ethnic group to grievance monger and so little on...you know...its actual prosperity. Whatever african-americans are doing now as a group, I gotta tell you, it's one giant ball of fail. Maybe it's time to re-prioritize.
#97
Posté 02 décembre 2009 - 05:05
FlatCat
-
- Members
- 53 messages
Schyzm wrote...
"According to a new Census Bureau study, more than eight out of 10 Asian-American children in the United States live with both parents, which is significantly higher than any other racial or ethnic group. "
"Asian Americans had the highest graduation rate among all ethnic groups in 1995, the most recent year for which data were available, according to a report released here last week by the American Council on Education. "
yah those asians are barely getting by. I think its rather hilarious you talk about "lack of role models" considering the vast success of asians. Do you even know what role models are for?
here's a quick rundown of asian-americans. They have the second lowest highschool dropout rate, the highest rate of skilled occupation, the highest rate of college degree(by like 15% too), the lowest divorce rate, the second highest homeowner rate, the highest median income, the second lowest in poverty and the second lowest on public assistance. Compared to blacks who have astronomic incarceration rates, high teen pregnancy rates, high dropout rates, abysmal college graduation rates, high divorce rates, very low median income, nearly a quarter live in poverty....i mean the list just goes on and on.
I actually think its mildly offensive to prosperity and humanity that you put so much emphasis on the ability of an ethnic group to grievance monger and so little on...you know...its actual prosperity. Whatever african-americans are doing now as a group, I gotta tell you, it's one giant ball of fail. Maybe it's time to re-prioritize.
Again Asian Americans are not one monolithic group. To contribute "success" to that group where many are not and can strongly being divided among Asian ethnic lines is asinine. And as I said "success," monetary success, isn't social success. It isn't happiness. How many times on TV or movies you see an Asian hero who get's the girl? Who isn't painted as some grotesque sexually inferior nerd or at best an asexual monk? How many times is an Asian woman not some subservient plaything to a white male character in turn? This has impact real social impact on people's self esteem and is why people are concerned with the subject mentioned in the OP. Without good representation and cultural power you will be victimized.
#98
Posté 02 décembre 2009 - 07:10
Schyzm
-
- Members
- 344 messages
FlatCat wrote...
Schyzm wrote...
"According to a new Census Bureau study, more than eight out of 10 Asian-American children in the United States live with both parents, which is significantly higher than any other racial or ethnic group. "
"Asian Americans had the highest graduation rate among all ethnic groups in 1995, the most recent year for which data were available, according to a report released here last week by the American Council on Education. "
yah those asians are barely getting by. I think its rather hilarious you talk about "lack of role models" considering the vast success of asians. Do you even know what role models are for?
here's a quick rundown of asian-americans. They have the second lowest highschool dropout rate, the highest rate of skilled occupation, the highest rate of college degree(by like 15% too), the lowest divorce rate, the second highest homeowner rate, the highest median income, the second lowest in poverty and the second lowest on public assistance. Compared to blacks who have astronomic incarceration rates, high teen pregnancy rates, high dropout rates, abysmal college graduation rates, high divorce rates, very low median income, nearly a quarter live in poverty....i mean the list just goes on and on.
I actually think its mildly offensive to prosperity and humanity that you put so much emphasis on the ability of an ethnic group to grievance monger and so little on...you know...its actual prosperity. Whatever african-americans are doing now as a group, I gotta tell you, it's one giant ball of fail. Maybe it's time to re-prioritize.
Again Asian Americans are not one monolithic group. To contribute "success" to that group where many are not and can strongly being divided among Asian ethnic lines is asinine. And as I said "success," monetary success, isn't social success. It isn't happiness. How many times on TV or movies you see an Asian hero who get's the girl? Who isn't painted as some grotesque sexually inferior nerd or at best an asexual monk? How many times is an Asian woman not some subservient plaything to a white male character in turn? This has impact real social impact on people's self esteem and is why people are concerned with the subject mentioned in the OP. Without good representation and cultural power you will be victimized.
asian americans have almost any marker of success you can imagine. I suppose besides yours, which relies on anecdotes and grievance mongering. I think it's pretty evident that whatever you're selling, the reality of the world is the exact opposite. You put down asian americans, an incredibly successful ethnic group, and promote african-americans, a disastrously unsuccessful ethnic group.
I can't imagine a clearer example of why the OP couldn't be more wrong then your series of posts. supposedly asian-american communities have "social problems" because they don't follow your shallow and degrading version of power, while african-american communities are "empowered" because they do follow it. I think that's all that needs to be said about the poisonous nature of your worldview.
#99
Posté 02 décembre 2009 - 07:54
purplesunset
-
- Members
- 334 messages
Woah.
I don't have time for a more detailed response, but I can't say that I approve of where this thread is heading with the argument between asians as the model minority vs. blacks as the whiny minority.
Bummer...
I was kindof hoping that my last post would be a turning point in improving the nature of the discussion. While this was partly successful, it seems that there are still a lot of people who didn't even read the previous posts before responding.
It would be a shame if this thread gets locked, because there are some good points here that I tried to summarize and I wish at least one person from Bioware would get to read.
I don't have time for a more detailed response, but I can't say that I approve of where this thread is heading with the argument between asians as the model minority vs. blacks as the whiny minority.
Bummer...
I was kindof hoping that my last post would be a turning point in improving the nature of the discussion. While this was partly successful, it seems that there are still a lot of people who didn't even read the previous posts before responding.
It would be a shame if this thread gets locked, because there are some good points here that I tried to summarize and I wish at least one person from Bioware would get to read.
Modifié par purplesunset, 02 décembre 2009 - 07:55 .
#100
Posté 03 décembre 2009 - 04:52
FlatCat
-
- Members
- 53 messages
Schyzm wrote...
asian americans have almost any marker of success you can imagine. I suppose besides yours, which relies on anecdotes and grievance mongering. I think it's pretty evident that whatever you're selling, the reality of the world is the exact opposite. You put down asian americans, an incredibly successful ethnic group, and promote african-americans, a disastrously unsuccessful ethnic group.
I can't imagine a clearer example of why the OP couldn't be more wrong then your series of posts. supposedly asian-american communities have "social problems" because they don't follow your shallow and degrading version of power, while african-american communities are "empowered" because they do follow it. I think that's all that needs to be said about the poisonous nature of your worldview.
The one who keeps skewing reality is you because you are blanketing the entire Asian American community as a monolithic entity that is somehow "successful" when I already told you that wasn't the case. Probably the most well known Asian American activists groups is MANAA which focuses on racism in the media. "Success" does not protect you collectively from discrimination. The United States has a black president but that does not change the problems you say blacks have, no? And yet if Asian Americans were so "successful" why wasn't there an Asian American president first? In Europe you see a wave of anti-Muslim bigotry despite the fact that countries like Sweden who banned minarets through referendum are pretty much dependent on hard working immigrants to sustain their lifestyle. Jews in the old Europe were successful. Too successful apparently according to the whites there. Did that protect them from pogroms? No it didn't. Racism is racism because it's about your RACE not about how much money you have or how educated you are.
@purplesunset: Like I've already said there are cornrows and dreadlocks in the game. That alone prevents any claims that Ferelden is "not mixed."
