265 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcfly616]

Bioware obviously succeeded with this....they even showed us Shepard still alive after the credits, and people still believe the whole meeting with TIM and Star Child were reality....indoctrination is apparently a powerful thing if your brains don't register what you are seeing....I'm not trying to have a flame war, I really just want someone that is against the indoctrination/dream "facts", to explain to me what it means to them AFTER beating the game, and seeing Shepard alive in the same exact spot he got blasted by Harbinger....I'm just trying to understand how you can say that it wasn't indoctrination or a dream, when the last thing you see is him regaining.consciousness

[pprrff]

balance5050 wrote...

Series not concluded...ME2 Chronologically ended with "The Arrival" DLC, which oddly enough is just a collection of clues pointing to indoctrination theory.

Series will end with DLC.

ME2 was clearly not the end of the trilogy. The could've add added a billion DLC and it would never be the ending. Beside. Arrival has much more to do with ME3 than it does with ME2. You could have not had a single DLC and ME2 would have been fine.

If ME3 needed to another piece of DLC to be a complete game, that's just wrong on so many levels.

[balance5050]

pprrff wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Series not concluded...ME2 Chronologically ended with "The Arrival" DLC, which oddly enough is just a collection of clues pointing to indoctrination theory.

Series will end with DLC.

ME2 was clearly not the end of the trilogy. The could've add added a billion DLC and it would never be the ending. Beside. Arrival has much more to do with ME3 than it does with ME2. You could have not had a single DLC and ME2 would have been fine.

If ME3 needed to another piece of DLC to be a complete game, that's just wrong on so many levels.

Well no f***ing S*** Sherlock, I know  "ME2 was clearly not the end of the trilogy" but for those actually account for THE ENTIRE STORY, "the arrival was the last act of ME2. and when you say "
Arrival has much more to do with ME3 than it does with ME2'... that should be a clear sign that the end wasn't real. Passed out near reaper, Harby saying "your mind will be mine", It centered around  the alpha relay (
The asteroid strikes the Alpha Relay and tears it apart. The resulting explosion, comparable to a supernova, wipes out the Bahak system. 

All evidence that the end was just:wizard: and not reality.

tHIS THREAD IS DEAD... just like every other thread like it.
 

Modifié par balance5050, 14 mars 2012 - 08:12 .

[Deltateam Elcor]

The all powerful occams razor.

Doesn't matter, ultimately, at the end of the day, it is an idea, some people may mislabel it a theory, which it isn't, i am a realist myself, however i will not go out of my way to create a dull life of miserable little ideas of how disgusting humanity is or whatever.

Accept that people want to be happy, even if they are INTENTIONALLY deceiving themselves to get there, after all life itself could be nothing more than a illusion if one knows anything about philosophy.

Making fiction more complicated than it may be is the beauty of the human mind, embrace it or leave, further argument is obsessive.

[Well]

balance5050 wrote...

Well wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

 You pick a premise and then frantically search for anything that can be interpreted to support it, ignoring the premise's utter lack of expression anywhere else.




Seriously guys, let's get some Occam's Razor in here.  The ending wasn't cryptic and needing analysis, it was actually just poorly done.



EDIT: It has become clear people are misinterpreting me when I tell them to use Occam's razor, so I'm going to spell this out:


It is not my assertion that the catalyst being an ancient AI ending is simpler or more logical than Shepard being indoctrinated.


It is my assertion that it's far more simple and logical to assume that Bioware wrote a bad ending that doesn't make sense, than that they vaguely alluded to some other one and expected their fans to piece it together from tiny unconnected clues.

I will take poorly done.They can come up with all the excuses in the world.Plaster us with blarney and bogus reasons but it doesn't change the fact it was terrible.IMHO.It isn't about Shep dying with me.It is about the second rate conclusion of this series.DA 2 in space.

Series not concluded...ME2 Chronologically ended with "The Arrival" DLC, which oddly enough is just a collection of clues pointing to indoctrination theory.

Series will end with DLC.

The series ended for me.I won't buy their DLC or another game from them.I bought BG 1 when it first came out but since DA2 they have gone another direction.It's isn't like they care or it will effect them.So as far as I am concerned it is over.

[Deltateam Elcor]

Well wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Well wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

 You pick a premise and then frantically search for anything that can be interpreted to support it, ignoring the premise's utter lack of expression anywhere else.




Seriously guys, let's get some Occam's Razor in here.  The ending wasn't cryptic and needing analysis, it was actually just poorly done.



EDIT: It has become clear people are misinterpreting me when I tell them to use Occam's razor, so I'm going to spell this out:


It is not my assertion that the catalyst being an ancient AI ending is simpler or more logical than Shepard being indoctrinated.


It is my assertion that it's far more simple and logical to assume that Bioware wrote a bad ending that doesn't make sense, than that they vaguely alluded to some other one and expected their fans to piece it together from tiny unconnected clues.

I will take poorly done.They can come up with all the excuses in the world.Plaster us with blarney and bogus reasons but it doesn't change the fact it was terrible.IMHO.It isn't about Shep dying with me.It is about the second rate conclusion of this series.DA 2 in space.

Series not concluded...ME2 Chronologically ended with "The Arrival" DLC, which oddly enough is just a collection of clues pointing to indoctrination theory.

Series will end with DLC.

The series ended for me.I won't buy their DLC or another game from them.I bought BG 1 when it first came out but since DA2 they have gone another direction.It's isn't like they care or it will effect them.So as far as I am concerned it is over.

Then why stay on the forums? are you obsessed?

[Seraphithan]

balance5050 wrote...

pprrff wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Series not concluded...ME2 Chronologically ended with "The Arrival" DLC, which oddly enough is just a collection of clues pointing to indoctrination theory.

Series will end with DLC.

ME2 was clearly not the end of the trilogy. The could've add added a billion DLC and it would never be the ending. Beside. Arrival has much more to do with ME3 than it does with ME2. You could have not had a single DLC and ME2 would have been fine.

If ME3 needed to another piece of DLC to be a complete game, that's just wrong on so many levels.

Well no f***ing S*** Sherlock, I know  "ME2 was clearly not the end of the trilogy" but for those actually account for THE ENTIRE STORY, "the arrival was the last act of ME2. and when you say "
Arrival has much more to do with ME3 than it does with ME2'... that should be a clear sign that the end wasn't real. Passed out near reaper, Harby saying "your mind will be mine", It centered around  the alpha relay (
The asteroid strikes the Alpha Relay and tears it apart. The resulting explosion, comparable to a supernova, wipes out the Bahak system. 

All evidence that the end was just:wizard: and not reality.

tHIS THREAD IS DEAD... just like every other thread like it.
 

Arrival? You mean the DLC were indoctrination against Shepard failed on such an immense level that she had to be kept comatose and even that didn't work?

Also lets assume the theory is correct, why is the destroy ending not less attractive? The reapers are cunning basterds but they didn't think of telling Shepard that chosing Destroy means the annihilation of Earth? They tell her she might die because she is part synthetic, they tell her all other synthetics will be wiped out, but they don't tell her that something they definitivly knew she cares about will be destroyed? "If you choose Destroy the Citadel will explode and its the explosion will wipe out the entire solar system."
Also why was there no seemingly easy exit? "If you choose Control all reapers will do your bidding, you will be fine and even the relays will survive."

Also why is there no attemp to stop Shepard when she goes for destroy? When Grayson contemplated suicide in Retribution the Reapers threw everything they got at him:

Drew Karpyshyn in Retribution wrote...

Something is wrong.
The Reapers sensed the changes in the brain waves of their host through the synthetic network monitoring his mental activity. They recognized the pattern flashing through his synapses: hopelessness, self-destruction. They had lost a vessel once before like this. This time they were prepared.
[...]
The avatar cannot be allowed to harm itself.
The Reapers understood Grayson had grown more resistant to their overt attempts to control him;
[...]
But there were other forms of control.
Tapping into his body's unconscious systems, the Reapers increased the levels of hormones being released into Grayson's system even as they subtly manipulated the electrical impulses in the brain to alter his emotional state.
[...]
A bizzare mix of emotions flodded through him.
[...]
He felt inexplicably energized. Defiant. Triumphant!
He tossed the blade back into the kit and opened his eyes. He refused to end it like this. Suicide was the coward's way out. He was better than that.

So a random human avatar gets reeled in with every trick in the book, but Shepard is allowed to just walk out?
That means this amazingly subtle indoctrination plot, that you can only realize if you look beyond the obvious, showing the absolutly unprecedented work of Biowares writers - works only because they handed the Reapers an idiot ball.
Yeah, I don't think so.

Modifié par Seraphithan, 14 mars 2012 - 10:15 .

[Mcfly616]

....still waiting for the explanation

[Mcfly616]

....only excuse(not explanation) I've heard from nay-sayers is that the writers just dropped the ball....I think the proof is concrete that everything after the Harbinger beam, is "Not Reality". Whether Shep is indoctrinated or dreaming, whatever it is, the keeper tunnel, the meeting with TIM, star child, space fireworks....NOT REAL. Nay-sayers cant get around the fact they see with their own two eyes, Shepard regaining consciousness on Earth before reaching the conduit....you won't even mention it lol hence why nobody is posting anymore. The evidence irrefutable

[Davies993]

Tequila Man wrote...

Davies993 wrote...

Tequila Man wrote...

See post two above you.

Huh? Someone else is asserting it is true so therefore what I said is argument from ignorance? What kind of logic is that?

Wait, maybe the way I cleaned up the quote sucked. Where you saying that because there is no proof against Indoctrination it is true?

No no, I was saying that there are no solid facts for either side. The OP was asserting something is true without any factual basis, as do many people who believe in the Indoc theory. My bad, I should have worded it better.

Modifié par Davies993, 14 mars 2012 - 10:39 .

[Trobon18]

Mcfly616 wrote...

....only excuse(not explanation) I've heard from nay-sayers is that the writers just dropped the ball....I think the proof is concrete that everything after the Harbinger beam, is "Not Reality". Whether Shep is indoctrinated or dreaming, whatever it is, the keeper tunnel, the meeting with TIM, star child, space fireworks....NOT REAL. Nay-sayers cant get around the fact they see with their own two eyes, Shepard regaining consciousness on Earth before reaching the conduit....you won't even mention it lol hence why nobody is posting anymore. The evidence irrefutable

The "evidence" is just as circumstatial and hamfisted as those who say we never landed on the moon. Saying its irrefutable because it covers plot holes it was specially created to cover doesn't make it so.

[pprrff]

Mcfly616 wrote...

....only excuse(not explanation) I've heard from nay-sayers is that the writers just dropped the ball....I think the proof is concrete that everything after the Harbinger beam, is "Not Reality". Whether Shep is indoctrinated or dreaming, whatever it is, the keeper tunnel, the meeting with TIM, star child, space fireworks....NOT REAL. Nay-sayers cant get around the fact they see with their own two eyes, Shepard regaining consciousness on Earth before reaching the conduit....you won't even mention it lol hence why nobody is posting anymore. The evidence irrefutable

The only thing I can point to is what you just said, the entire part of the game where you slowly walk toward to beam, gets up after passing out, the whole scene with Anderson ......

You, know, the game part the game. I would think that when the developers put that in the game, they meant it. There is no point trying to compare the finer points of the original ending vs the indoc theory ending because being more logical or better doesn't make it true. What we saw in the game is what happened in the game, I don't understand why that's so hard to accept that idea.

Take another step back, if the indoc ending was the real ending, why it didn't show in the game? Do you think they would actually pull something like that just so they can sell DLCs?

You know what, if you turn out to be right, I will buy you enough shots till you get liver cirrhosis, right after I dispose of whatever goodwill i have left for Bioware.

Modifié par pprrff, 14 mars 2012 - 10:46 .

[Sevorast]

Lemonwizard wrote...

 You pick a premise and then frantically search for anything that can be interpreted to support it, ignoring the premise's utter lack of expression anywhere else.




Seriously guys, let's get some Occam's Razor in here.  The ending wasn't cryptic and needing analysis, it was actually just poorly done.



EDIT: It has become clear people are misinterpreting me when I tell them to use Occam's razor, so I'm going to spell this out:


It is not my assertion that the catalyst being an ancient AI ending is simpler or more logical than Shepard being indoctrinated.


It is my assertion that it's far more simple and logical to assume that Bioware wrote a bad ending that doesn't make sense, than that they vaguely alluded to some other one and expected their fans to piece it together from tiny unconnected clues.

I would argue that it is far more likely that BioWare wrote a great ending, and this 'ending' we have now is an indoctrination sequence. My reasoning is simply that BioWare has a history of creating great stories and something as poor as the current 'ending' is so far below their normal quality of writing and production that the likelyhood of it actually being the final scene for mass effect 3 is very small. It would represent the absolute worst writing and storytelling that they have ever produced.

It is much easier for me to believe that they expected their fans to see it for what it was, than it is for me to believe they all suddenly forgot how to tell a story in a meaningful way.

[Treemarker]

Indoctrination theory explained:

[Well]

Deltateam Elcor wrote...

Well wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Well wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

 You pick a premise and then frantically search for anything that can be interpreted to support it, ignoring the premise's utter lack of expression anywhere else.




Seriously guys, let's get some Occam's Razor in here.  The ending wasn't cryptic and needing analysis, it was actually just poorly done.



EDIT: It has become clear people are misinterpreting me when I tell them to use Occam's razor, so I'm going to spell this out:


It is not my assertion that the catalyst being an ancient AI ending is simpler or more logical than Shepard being indoctrinated.


It is my assertion that it's far more simple and logical to assume that Bioware wrote a bad ending that doesn't make sense, than that they vaguely alluded to some other one and expected their fans to piece it together from tiny unconnected clues.

I will take poorly done.They can come up with all the excuses in the world.Plaster us with blarney and bogus reasons but it doesn't change the fact it was terrible.IMHO.It isn't about Shep dying with me.It is about the second rate conclusion of this series.DA 2 in space.

Series not concluded...ME2 Chronologically ended with "The Arrival" DLC, which oddly enough is just a collection of clues pointing to indoctrination theory.

Series will end with DLC.

The series ended for me.I won't buy their DLC or another game from them.I bought BG 1 when it first came out but since DA2 they have gone another direction.It's isn't like they care or it will effect them.So as far as I am concerned it is over.

Then why stay on the forums? are you obsessed?

Because I can.

[viperabyss]

Mcfly616 wrote...

....only excuse(not explanation) I've heard from nay-sayers is that the writers just dropped the ball....I think the proof is concrete that everything after the Harbinger beam, is "Not Reality". Whether Shep is indoctrinated or dreaming, whatever it is, the keeper tunnel, the meeting with TIM, star child, space fireworks....NOT REAL. Nay-sayers cant get around the fact they see with their own two eyes, Shepard regaining consciousness on Earth before reaching the conduit....you won't even mention it lol hence why nobody is posting anymore. The evidence irrefutable

Except all the evidence are refutable, and people who spoke against those evidence are always ignored.

I proved Shepard running towards the beam was not a dream sequence. It was ignored. I proved Anderson did not teleport in front of Shepard. It was ignored. Everything I put forth as proof, even with photographical and video evidence, and they were ignored. People still yell "nobody can convince me! I'm right!". The majority of the users on these forum hyped themselves into theory of indoctrination, they'll plug their ear and sing la-la-la all day long. 

Look, I'm just as hurt as all of you are, but theory of indoctrination doesn't answer a single thing. All it does is replace a bad ending, with another bad detour that attempts to offer explanations (irrelevantly), but leave the ending wide open. How is this an improvement? This is like replacing your skirt with a g-string because you feel there's not enough cover for your private area. In the end, both groups are eagerly waiting for Bioware's response, whether its an ending rewrite, or an actual ending. 

Modifié par viperabyss, 15 mars 2012 - 06:00 .