265 réponses à ce sujet

[Smiley556]

Tequila Man wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

So theres 2 main explenation currently going round about the ending (I'm not gonna call either theory, cos some people experience the ending one way, some experience it the other. If Indoctrination is a theory, then so is god kid space magic).

1 - Indoctrination - The story is sound and there are no plotholes

2 - God kid space magic - Full of plotholes

Sorry, I'm gonna go for the one that makes sense.

One of these is fanficton.

One of these is canon.

Horribly enough, I'm going with canon.

Hence the rage.

They are both explenations to the ending, there is nothing proving either of them is canon and either of them is not.

[Davies993]

Tequila Man wrote...

See post two above you.

Huh? Someone else is asserting it is true so therefore what I said is argument from ignorance? What kind of logic is that?

Modifié par Davies993, 14 mars 2012 - 05:30 .

[Nightshade386]

Lemonwizard wrote...

Nightshade386 wrote...


Unless we're right, you're wrong, and it's cliffhanger.

Just saying.  All interpretation is open to discussion until  we get something difinitive from Bioware.

I don't think you understand what "cliffhanger" means.


Because it doesn't mean "we acted like it was over but there are tiny clues hidden around that imply there could be more stuff if the sequel starts with a big plot twist".

Shepard breathing at the end is quite clearly a cliffhanger.

[Rockpopple]

Also, keep in mind that there is nothing "not canon" about Indoctrination theory. Indoctrination theory doesn't ADD any new facts or scenes or anything that isn't seen in the ending. It asks the user to interpret what happens, rather than just take what happens at face value.

Honestly, if you're the kind that takes things at face value so easily, you would have shut off your console while playing a Metal Gear game because Hideo Kojima made you think your console wasn't working, when he was really mind-effing you.

[Lemonwizard]

Davies993 wrote...

How is it even remotely like it?

YEC - disbelief in the face of established fact

Indoc theory - A rational and logical argument for ME3's ending, based on facts (i.e things that happened in the game). There is no fact to prove that Indoc theory is not true.

What you are saying is logically fallacious and utterly ridiculous.

I'm not saying the theories are similar. I'm saying the arguing styles are similar. 

[pprrff]

Smiley556 wrote...

Tequila Man wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

So theres 2 main explenation currently going round about the ending (I'm not gonna call either theory, cos some people experience the ending one way, some experience it the other. If Indoctrination is a theory, then so is god kid space magic).

1 - Indoctrination - The story is sound and there are no plotholes

2 - God kid space magic - Full of plotholes

Sorry, I'm gonna go for the one that makes sense.

One of these is fanficton.

One of these is canon.

Horribly enough, I'm going with canon.

Hence the rage.

They are both explenations to the ending, there is nothing proving either of them is canon and either of them is not.

put it the other way.

Space God Magic whatever ...  actually in the game, with cutscences and dialogues and is defended by its producer.
Indoctrination: Something you read on the forum.

that's the difference between the two.

[DarkSeraphym]

Taleroth wrote...

You should take another look at it. "Another matter" doesn't mean "it doesn't happen." There are multiple instances listed where it is shown in a canon work.

When I said "they can't use it", I didn't mean there was no possibility. They can use it provided they offer credit to the individual who came up with the idea in the first place (See Official Fan Submitted Content) in the link. The problem is how do you give credit to an idea that has been added to and refined on the internet? Who is responsible for its creation? The person who posted first, or all of the people who shaped it over time? That is why I don't think they would be able to use it.

Corporations are averse to situations that could potentially put them in danger of lawsuits. Adopting the idea that Shepard was indoctrinated and then making a game or an expansion set many years later that says something similar is one thing. Making a paid DLC that literally takes the idea of a fan, assuming they didn't come up with it on their own anyway, and expanding on it without credit or compensation is a situation that could get them sued.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 14 mars 2012 - 05:41 .

[Rockpopple]

Tequila Man wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

You can choose to accept everything you see at face value, in which case you believe that the writers suddenly forgot how nearly every aspect of the ME universe works in the last 5 minutes of the story, or you can ask yourself the hard questions about what you're seeing.

Watch the Destroy ending again, watch the breathe scene, and ask yourself some damn questions. We're not Flat Earthers or Creationists, we're the ones who see bones and asks ourselves questions of evolution. We don't accept what say, a religious text tells us at face value. That'd be the other side.

I could sum all that up for you:

fanfiction.


I'm going to be really fair now: if it turns out the Devs did this, and are doing new endings (hell, even if they aren't), I will apologize. To all of you.

Would you do me the same honor if the positions were reversed?

Again, you're wrong. Fanfiction adds new facts to the narrative. Indoctrination theory does not. All it does is interpret what happens differently. All the facts remain the same. 

So you can either take what happens at face value, or you can think about why it doesn't make sense. Doing the latter doesn't make it fanfiction. That's the simple truth of the matter.

And yeah, if the Devs come out and say the endings are the endings and they're not gonna explain them and that they should be taken at face value, then I'll apologize. I'll be waiting for yours, however.

[Tequila Man]

Davies993 wrote...

Tequila Man wrote...

See post two above you.

Huh? Someone else is asserting it is true so therefore what I said is argument from ignorance? What kind of logic is that?

Wait, maybe the way I cleaned up the quote sucked. Where you saying that because there is no proof against Indoctrination it is true?

[Tequila Man]

Rockpopple wrote...

And yeah, if the Devs come out and say the endings are the endings and they're not gonna explain them and that they should be taken at face value, then I'll apologize. I'll be waiting for yours, however.

A honorable man.

Again, you're wrong. Fanfiction adds new facts to the narrative. Indoctrination theory does not. All it does is interpret what happens differently. All the facts remain the same.  

Actually, uh, that's wrong. Plenty of fanfiction is just "interpretation."

Modifié par Tequila Man, 14 mars 2012 - 05:35 .

[Smiley556]

So a theory one how the ending could be explained is now fanfiction?

Oke, I have a theory:
How about, it was all real? Instead of it happening in shepards mind as is suggested, he Really went out to the citadel and talked to TIM and Anderson. The kid was actually some kind of god kid, the catalyst, and the Crucible is a magic item. The god kid lets shepard choose between 3 option on how to use that magic item. I know this theory leaves allot of question but think about it.

BAM there, your explenation is now fanfiction too according to your logic.

[Rockpopple]

pprrff wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

Tequila Man wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

So theres 2 main explenation currently going round about the ending (I'm not gonna call either theory, cos some people experience the ending one way, some experience it the other. If Indoctrination is a theory, then so is god kid space magic).

1 - Indoctrination - The story is sound and there are no plotholes

2 - God kid space magic - Full of plotholes

Sorry, I'm gonna go for the one that makes sense.

One of these is fanficton.

One of these is canon.

Horribly enough, I'm going with canon.

Hence the rage.

They are both explenations to the ending, there is nothing proving either of them is canon and either of them is not.

put it the other way.

Space God Magic whatever ...  actually in the game, with cutscences and dialogues and is defended by its producer.
Indoctrination: Something you read on the forum.

that's the difference between the two.

Wrong again. 

Space God Magic - Actually in the Game. Taken at no value with no critical thinking involved.
Indoctrination Theory - Every aspect of which is Actually in the Game. Only discovered when you critically question everything being said, done.

If it takes a forum goer to make you go back and question, so be it. For some, it did. For others, all it took was another look.

[bytemarks]

Lemonwizard wrote...

 You pick a premise and then frantically search for anything that can be interpreted to support it, ignoring the premise's utter lack of expression anywhere else.




Seriously guys, let's get some Occam's Razor in here.  The ending wasn't cryptic and needing analysis, it was actually just poorly done.

But how do you know this? The evidence supporting the theory makes plenty of sense to simply dismiss without reason. I'm not saying it's what happened, but if I were, you certainly couldn't tell me it didn't, not for certain. This series has had superb writing throughout. It's been well thought out and calculated. It's unlikely they would falter on the most important part. Even at face value I can find more merit on here than most people, but there is just too much evidence to ignore idoctrination.

Modifié par bytemarks, 14 mars 2012 - 05:36 .

[Tequila Man]

Smiley556 wrote...

So a theory one how the ending could be explained is now fanfiction?

Oke, I have a theory:
How about, it was all real? Instead of it happening in shepards mind as is suggested, he Really went out to the citadel and talked to TIM and Anderson. The kid was actually some kind of god kid, the catalyst, and the Crucible is a magic item. The god kid lets shepard choose between 3 option on how to use that magic item. I know this theory leaves allot of question but think about it.

BAM there, your explenation is now fanfiction too according to your logic.

All you did was repeat the canon ending.

But I see what you did there.

[Smiley556]

pprrff wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

Tequila Man wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

So theres 2 main explenation currently going round about the ending (I'm not gonna call either theory, cos some people experience the ending one way, some experience it the other. If Indoctrination is a theory, then so is god kid space magic).

1 - Indoctrination - The story is sound and there are no plotholes

2 - God kid space magic - Full of plotholes

Sorry, I'm gonna go for the one that makes sense.

One of these is fanficton.

One of these is canon.

Horribly enough, I'm going with canon.

Hence the rage.

They are both explenations to the ending, there is nothing proving either of them is canon and either of them is not.

put it the other way.

Space God Magic whatever ...  actually in the game, with cutscences and dialogues and is defended by its producer.
Indoctrination: Something you read on the forum.

that's the difference between the two.

Wow, something You read on the forum. Indoctrination was my first impression when I played the ending and I'm sharing my explenation on the forums now. There are many others who see the ending like that aswell. Indoctriation is not something made up. Its a perfectly sane explenation to what we percieved.

[Tequila Man]

Question: before Broken Steel came out, you guys know your Wanderer died, right? See, that's canon.

Modifié par Tequila Man, 14 mars 2012 - 05:37 .

[bytemarks]

Just to be clear, Indoctrination is the first thing I thought of as well when that ending sequence began. I didn't need the forum to tell me that.

[Smiley556]

Tequila Man wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

So a theory one how the ending could be explained is now fanfiction?

Oke, I have a theory:
How about, it was all real? Instead of it happening in shepards mind as is suggested, he Really went out to the citadel and talked to TIM and Anderson. The kid was actually some kind of god kid, the catalyst, and the Crucible is a magic item. The god kid lets shepard choose between 3 option on how to use that magic item. I know this theory leaves allot of question but think about it.

BAM there, your explenation is now fanfiction too according to your logic.

All you did was repeat the canon ending.

But I see what you did there.

So is explaining the indoctrination theory. It explaines the scenes we see in the canon ending as we percieve them. Both are interpretation of the canon story.

[Lemonwizard]

Sometimes I feel like nobody was on this forum when Mass Effect 2 came out. It's like everyone forgot how that ending "ruined" the series and "marked the fall of Bioware".


The writing was not by any metric outstanding throughout the course of the trilogy. Saying that Bioware wouldn't have made a mistake now because they haven't made mistakes before is just false, because they HAVE made mistakes before. Big ones, too.

Modifié par Lemonwizard, 14 mars 2012 - 05:38 .

[Liquoid]

Tequila Man wrote...

Haasth wrote...

So you are of opinion the ending is what it is? BioWare threw in the God card, blew up all their Mass Relays and went "**** it, this franchise is done."?

Seems like a suicidal business practice.

Thats not an opinion.

Thats what they did.

If you think the endings were real then you have been indoctrinated.

[Tequila Man]

Smiley556 wrote...

So is explaining the indoctrination theory. It explaines the scenes we see in the canon ending as we percieve them. Both are interpretation of the canon story.

Absolutely. It is a really awesome interpretation. Made by a fan. If I said it was all faninterpretation rather than fanfiction, would you feel better?

Modifié par Tequila Man, 14 mars 2012 - 05:39 .

[Tequila Man]

Liquoid wrote...

Tequila Man wrote...

Haasth wrote...

So you are of opinion the ending is what it is? BioWare threw in the God card, blew up all their Mass Relays and went "**** it, this franchise is done."?

Seems like a suicidal business practice.

Thats not an opinion.

Thats what they did.

If you think the endings were real then you have been indoctrinated.

Until Bioware fixes them, yeah, they are real. And treat us like children.

[KorPhaeron]

Tequila Man wrote...

Davies993 wrote...

Tequila Man wrote...

See post two above you.

Huh? Someone else is asserting it is true so therefore what I said is argument from ignorance? What kind of logic is that?

Wait, maybe the way I cleaned up the quote sucked. Where you saying that because there is no proof against Indoctrination it is true?

lol its like disproving a negative based on fiction:huh:

sorry for saying this but this is like : God is real beacuse you cant disprove hes not real:wizard:

or like a mental patient seeing angels, we can say hes nuts, but we cant disprove the angels

you should stop man, its an imposible argument.

[pprrff]

rockpopple. indoc ending is just as bad of an ending as the current one, everything from no closure to no choices is just as true for indoctrination. at least with what we have the reaper problem is gone, one way or the other.

[Taleroth]

Tequila Man wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

So is explaining the indoctrination theory. It explaines the scenes we see in the canon ending as we percieve them. Both are interpretation of the canon story.

Absolutely. It is a really awesome interpretation. Made by a fan. If I said it was all faninterpretation rather than fanfiction, would you feel better?

I think the popular term is fanwank. But many forums filter that term.