265 réponses à ce sujet

[Tequila Man]

Rockpopple wrote...

Tequila Man wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Why would Shepard be exposed to every single weapon the Reapers could possibly use, except for indoctrination?

Got exposed to it near the end of ME3. Beat it. 

Not beating it = TIM shooting you in the head.

Tequila Man, you can't compare TIM's poor-ass version of Indoctrination to the real thing. Shepard was never, throughout the entire series, victim or nearly victim of the Reaper's most feared and insideous weapon. That alone begs the question: why in the 3rd act of this amazing trilogy did Shep never have to deal with Reaper Indoctrination?

For the same reason plugging your controller into the second port during Psycho Mantis makes his ESP fail? Who knows. We saw indoctrination. It failed.

[Lemonwizard]

hismastersvoice wrote...

Uh, some people really should look up the definition of Occam's Razor before they tell other people to apply it to anything...

The explanation that makes the fewest assumptions is usually the best explanation.


Indoctrination theory makes more assumptions than the actual ending.





Care to elaborate on your point?

Modifié par Lemonwizard, 14 mars 2012 - 05:57 .

[Smiley556]

Tequila Man wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

Interesting, cos when I played the game, Indoctrination happend. In the game. Right in front of me.

Absolutely. Then, we shot him in the stomach. He fell down. Indoctrination failure.

Funny... Indoctrination from when you get knocked out by Harby to when you wake up in the rubble on earth. Have you read the indoctrination explenation before bashing it?

[Rockpopple]

Zyrious wrote...

Psychiatrists say that many 9/11 conspiracy theories are a result of people wanting to believe the government is all powerful as opposed to the idea that we are so vulnerable a rag-tag group of middle-eastern men could walk into our country and kill thousands with little effort.

In this situation, people are so desperate to believe that bioware didnt just plain screw up the ending, either due to lack of time or just thinking the shock value of it would be seen in a good light (which it wasnt).

There would be more foreshadowing and obvious clues that don't require mass nitpicking of the entire forum community. Most of the players dont come here, they would not leave a supposed "dream" sequence not reveal itself as a dream sequence by the end of the game, and they certainly wouldn't have made the Stargazer sequence. It's reaching, it's desperation.

Well said, but wrong. I have a problem with conspiracy theories, REAL conspiracy theories, because they always, ALWAYS introduce new facts to the matter. 

Kennedy Assassination conspiracy theroists see a bullet that changes tragectory, even though they don't.

9/11 conspiracy theorists see explosions, or a third building collpsing, even though they never happen.

In this case, there are NO new facts being introduced.

But as I've said, you either get it or you don't. Not getting it doesn't make you any more clever than those of us who question what we're seeing with the endings. It just means you don't get it.

[Turran]

So, why exactly are you against this theory so much?
Why are so many against it?
Is it personally hurting you that other people have come up/gathered around and created their own way of interpreting the game? Does it hurt you that they think differently?

If no, then why create a thread to bash a theory? It isn't hurting you and it is keeping people entertained, just ignore it and carry on thinking what you want to believe and let others believe what they want to believe, everyone is happy.

[Rockpopple]

Tequila Man wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Tequila Man wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Why would Shepard be exposed to every single weapon the Reapers could possibly use, except for indoctrination?

Got exposed to it near the end of ME3. Beat it. 

Not beating it = TIM shooting you in the head.

Tequila Man, you can't compare TIM's poor-ass version of Indoctrination to the real thing. Shepard was never, throughout the entire series, victim or nearly victim of the Reaper's most feared and insideous weapon. That alone begs the question: why in the 3rd act of this amazing trilogy did Shep never have to deal with Reaper Indoctrination?

For the same reason plugging your controller into the second port during Psycho Mantis makes his ESP fail? Who knows. We saw indoctrination. It failed.

That... doesn't answer my question at all. You basically just hand-waved me away. Which means you're not interested in actual discussion. If that's the case, then so be it.

[KorPhaeron]

Talogrungi wrote...

Tequila Man wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

Interesting, cos when I played the game, Indoctrination happend. In the game. Right in front of me.

Absolutely. Then, we shot him in the stomach. He fell down. Indoctrination failure.

Did you not get the ending where Shep is seen waking up in the rubble amidst the sound of reapers?

Like .. after being clipped by Harbinger's beam just before the nonsensical, dreamlike sequence .. ?

That's how I interpreted the ending I saw. Injured by Harbinger, Hallucinated, Woke Up.

hmm I never saw shep wake up, i saw a badly burnt (someone) in armor take one breath.

[Tequila Man]

Turran wrote...

So, why exactly are you against this theory so much?
Why are so many against it?
Is it personally hurting you that other people have come up/gathered around and created their own way of interpreting the game? Does it hurt you that they think differently?

If no, then why create a thread to bash a theory? It isn't hurting you and it is keeping people entertained, just ignore it and carry on thinking what you want to believe and let others believe what they want to believe, everyone is happy.

It placates people into thinking they've been given a quality ending by a company that respects them as adults.

And, they haven't.

Modifié par Tequila Man, 14 mars 2012 - 05:59 .

[Verit]

Rockpopple wrote...
Tequila Man, you can't compare TIM's poor-ass version of Indoctrination to the real thing. Shepard was never, throughout the entire series, victim or nearly victim of the Reaper's most feared and insideous weapon. That alone begs the question: why in the 3rd act of this amazing trilogy did Shep never have to deal with Reaper Indoctrination?

Just checking, but basically you're saying that the scene where TIM was indoctrinating Shepard was in fact a hallucination in itself caused by Shepard already being indoctrinated? And he was in reality still lying on the ground in London after being hit by Harbinger's beam?

[Rockpopple]

KorPhaeron wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

Tequila Man wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

Interesting, cos when I played the game, Indoctrination happend. In the game. Right in front of me.

Absolutely. Then, we shot him in the stomach. He fell down. Indoctrination failure.

Did you not get the ending where Shep is seen waking up in the rubble amidst the sound of reapers?

Like .. after being clipped by Harbinger's beam just before the nonsensical, dreamlike sequence .. ?

That's how I interpreted the ending I saw. Injured by Harbinger, Hallucinated, Woke Up.

hmm I never saw shep wake up, i saw a badly burnt (someone) in armor take one breath.

Yeah, I'm sure BioWare would have the ending be some other random N7 soldier taking a breath. Come on.

[usmack5]

[Tequila Man]

-Draikin- wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...
Tequila Man, you can't compare TIM's poor-ass version of Indoctrination to the real thing. Shepard was never, throughout the entire series, victim or nearly victim of the Reaper's most feared and insideous weapon. That alone begs the question: why in the 3rd act of this amazing trilogy did Shep never have to deal with Reaper Indoctrination?

Just checking, but basically you're saying that the scene where TIM was indoctrinating Shepard was in fact a hallucination in itself caused by Shepard already being indoctrinated? And he was in reality still lying on the ground in London after being hit by Harbinger's beam?

Yo dawg... I heard you were indoctrinated. So, I got you some indoctrination to go with your indoctrination.

[hex23]

Lemonwizard wrote...

 You pick a premise and then frantically search for anything that can be interpreted to support it, ignoring the premise's utter lack of expression anywhere else.




Seriously guys, let's get some Occam's Razor in here.  The ending wasn't cryptic and needing analysis, it was actually just poorly done.

I love it when people use the term Occam's Razor without even knowing what it means.

If we're looking for the simplest explanation hallucination/indoctrination is far more elegant than what we're shown. The alternative is Shepard alive after a space station blowing up, no Mass Relays, no Normandy, your crew is stranded, possibly forever on an alien world, no Citadel, millions of aliens stranded on Earth with no resources to sustain them, etc.

This is not even taking into account how nonsensical the Control/Destroy/Synthesis choices are if taken at face value.

That's simple to you?

[Talogrungi]

KorPhaeron wrote...

hmm I never saw shep wake up, i saw a badly burnt (someone) in armor take one breath.

You saw someone whose gender matched the Shepard you're playing in the armour you're seen wearing show visible signs of life in the place you were just injured.

C'mon..

[Shepard Wins]

Indoctrination theory makes sense. I'm going with it. Sorry, I want to know what happened to all the characters and worlds I've gotten to know and love during my ME saga experience. DLC real ending or I'll think of my own.

Modifié par Shepard Wins, 14 mars 2012 - 06:02 .

[Rockpopple]

-Draikin- wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...
Tequila Man, you can't compare TIM's poor-ass version of Indoctrination to the real thing. Shepard was never, throughout the entire series, victim or nearly victim of the Reaper's most feared and insideous weapon. That alone begs the question: why in the 3rd act of this amazing trilogy did Shep never have to deal with Reaper Indoctrination?

Just checking, but basically you're saying that the scene where TIM was indoctrinating Shepard was in fact a hallucination in itself caused by Shepard already being indoctrinated? And he was in reality still lying on the ground in London after being hit by Harbinger's beam?

Yes!

The bullet points of Indoc. Theory holds that after Shep and HAMMER got ****kicked by Harbinger, he, and the player, were being indoctrinated. The endings are a result of whether they were successfull in indoctrinating you or not. Shepard never left London. 

[v0rt3x22]

Lemonwizard wrote...

 You pick a premise and then frantically search for anything that can be interpreted to support it, ignoring the premise's utter lack of expression anywhere else.




Seriously guys, let's get some Occam's Razor in here.  The ending wasn't cryptic and needing analysis, it was actually just poorly done.

Quite ironic coming from someone with this signature:

[Tequila Man]

Rockpopple wrote...

-Draikin- wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...
Tequila Man, you can't compare TIM's poor-ass version of Indoctrination to the real thing. Shepard was never, throughout the entire series, victim or nearly victim of the Reaper's most feared and insideous weapon. That alone begs the question: why in the 3rd act of this amazing trilogy did Shep never have to deal with Reaper Indoctrination?

Just checking, but basically you're saying that the scene where TIM was indoctrinating Shepard was in fact a hallucination in itself caused by Shepard already being indoctrinated? And he was in reality still lying on the ground in London after being hit by Harbinger's beam?

Yes!

The bullet points of Indoc. Theory holds that after Shep and HAMMER got ****kicked by Harbinger, he, and the player, were being indoctrinated. The endings are a result of whether they were successfull in indoctrinating you or not. Shepard never left London. 

The only reason I like this is because it makes the cherry flavored ice cream ending the canon ending. Which makes me a genocidal **** even in my false, Indoctrinated reality.

Cool.

[Mysten]

I love these threads. In my head it goes a little something like this:

"If you paid attention to the subtext, indoctrination is clearly the intended interpretation."
"SUBTEXT IS JUST A THEORY."
"No, seriously-"
"THEORY."
"Come on-"
"IT'S NOT EXPLICITLY STATED SO IT IS NOT CANON."
"This is why Dead Space had Kendra Daniels. It felt a little insulting to the player to be bluntly told that you are being manipulated, but at least it avoided this situation."
"KENDRA DANIELS IS JUST A THEORY."
"I give up."
"GOOD BECAUSE I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF YOUR THEORY."

[KorPhaeron]

Rockpopple wrote...

KorPhaeron wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

Tequila Man wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

Interesting, cos when I played the game, Indoctrination happend. In the game. Right in front of me.

Absolutely. Then, we shot him in the stomach. He fell down. Indoctrination failure.

Did you not get the ending where Shep is seen waking up in the rubble amidst the sound of reapers?

Like .. after being clipped by Harbinger's beam just before the nonsensical, dreamlike sequence .. ?

That's how I interpreted the ending I saw. Injured by Harbinger, Hallucinated, Woke Up.

hmm I never saw shep wake up, i saw a badly burnt (someone) in armor take one breath.

Yeah, I'm sure BioWare would have the ending be some other random N7 soldier taking a breath. Come on.

it could be anderson for all i know, it could be shep takeing his LAST bearth or vega, I dont know it cuts to credits after.

Thats the point, make up something not shown in the game to explain something shown is what people are doing.

Modifié par KorPhaeron, 14 mars 2012 - 06:05 .

[Verit]

Talogrungi wrote...
Did you not get the ending where Shep is seen waking up in the rubble amidst the sound of reapers?

Sound of reapers? That sound is just metal that is still giving way from all the buildings that collapsed. In no way does that resemble the actual Reaper sound. Also, there were no buildings in the area around the beam to begin with.

[Rockpopple]

Indoc. Theory also holds that you MAY NEVER KNOW what happens to Shepard, the Normandy, your Squaddies and friends, even the galactic army itself. If BioWare really has no plans to expand the ending to give a kind of epilogue, those questions will never ben answered. All you'll know is that at the height of battle, Shepard nearly gave in to the Reaper's most devastating weapon, but rejected it, and lived at least one more second in the battle.

That's not a happy ending. It's not a satisfying one, but it's a far more artistic ending and an ending that makes sense than just taking Synthesis or Control or Destroy at face value.

[DarkSeraphym]

Shepard Wins wrote...

Indoctrination theory makes sense. I'm going with it. Sorry, I want to know what happened to all the characters and worlds I've gotten to know and love during my ME saga experience. DLC real ending or I'll think of my own.

No offense, but this is what concerns me about the theory and the analysis that is going into its evidence. Many people who subscribe to it seem to do so because it offers them hope that BioWare will fix them. The moment that you have an emotional attachment to the outcome, in this case hope, you've opened the door to confirmation bias.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 14 mars 2012 - 06:05 .

[Tequila Man]

Mysten wrote...

I love these threads. In my head it goes a little something like this:

"If you paid attention to the subtext, indoctrination is clearly the intended interpretation."

Clearly. Very clearly.

Modifié par Tequila Man, 14 mars 2012 - 06:05 .

[hismastersvoice]

-Draikin- wrote...

hismastersvoice wrote...

Uh, some people really should look up the definition of Occam's Razor before they tell other people to apply it to anything...

Please explain. I hope you're not suggesting that the huge wall of text that is the indoctrination theory is actually the ending theory that makes the fewest assumptions.

The simplest available theory does not have to be correct one. People are acting as if Occam's Razor automatically disproves any theory based on assumption or interpretation of available info, when it's intended use is to manage the order of verification for cases with multiple theoretical approaches.

We have  a grand total of one theory here, that happens to be based on interpretation of existing data. Applying Razor here makes little sense.