265 réponses à ce sujet

[Lemonwizard]

hex23 wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

 You pick a premise and then frantically search for anything that can be interpreted to support it, ignoring the premise's utter lack of expression anywhere else.




Seriously guys, let's get some Occam's Razor in here.  The ending wasn't cryptic and needing analysis, it was actually just poorly done.

I love it when people use the term Occam's Razor without even knowing what it means.

If we're looking for the simplest explanation hallucination/indoctrination is far more elegant than what we're shown. The alternative is Shepard alive after a space station blowing up, no Mass Relays, no Normandy, your crew is stranded, possibly forever on an alien world, no Citadel, millions of aliens stranded on Earth with no resources to sustain them, etc.

This is not even taking into account how nonsensical the Control/Destroy/Synthesis choices are if taken at face value.

That's simple to you?

Occam's razor IN REAL LIFE.


I'm not telling Shepard to use Occam's razor, I am telling Bioware forums to use Occam's razor.




I think it's more likely that the ending that is in the game is the ending that is supposed to be in the game, than that bioware secretly wants us to connect some dots and get something completely different. Especially since being confronted with and resisting indoctrination is already a scene.

[Leafs43]

People who take the endings at face value believe in space magic, which makes them more similar to creationists than indoctrination theorists.

[Tequila Man]

Leafs43 wrote...

People who take the endings at face value believe in space magic, which makes them more similar to creationists than indoctrination theorists.

Actually, we know we've been handed a pile of ****. Indoc theory is squinting your eyes and thinking its a sammich. Eat away! Eat away!

Modifié par Tequila Man, 14 mars 2012 - 06:07 .

[Rockpopple]

-Draikin- wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...
Did you not get the ending where Shep is seen waking up in the rubble amidst the sound of reapers?

Sound of reapers? That sound is just metal that is still giving way from all the buildings that collapsed. In no way does that resemble the actual Reaper sound. Also, there were no buildings in the area around the beam to begin with.

Come on, dude. Now you're the one reaching. We all know what Anderson was wearing. And why would they focus on Anderson in the very last scene of the game? And Vega wasn't N7 at the time of the Hammer attack at Ground Zero. He wasn't even N1. He just started that training.

It was obviously Shepard.

But I didn't hear sounds of Reapers. I heard shuffling debris. That's all. And the breath, of course.

[Smiley556]

KorPhaeron wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

Tequila Man wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

Interesting, cos when I played the game, Indoctrination happend. In the game. Right in front of me.

Absolutely. Then, we shot him in the stomach. He fell down. Indoctrination failure.

Did you not get the ending where Shep is seen waking up in the rubble amidst the sound of reapers?

Like .. after being clipped by Harbinger's beam just before the nonsensical, dreamlike sequence .. ?

That's how I interpreted the ending I saw. Injured by Harbinger, Hallucinated, Woke Up.

hmm I never saw shep wake up, i saw a badly burnt (someone) in armor take one breath.

The filename for that scenematic is Shepard waking [gender] so yeah its shepard.

[Zyrious]

Why would they do the stargazer scene? Why would they leave so little in-narrative evidence for non-forum gamers? Why is it not in the script? Why does getting hit by a giant laser trigger indoctrination? How is the alliance not getting slaughtered and the crucible destroyed while shepard is twitching and convulsing on the ground hallucinating? This theory is so rediculous. If this was the angle they were going for there'd be more hints, more clues to what the "Decisions" "truly" meant.

For that matter, if choosing green or blue "Kills" you then why not just shoot another laser, why bother indoctrinating shepard at all? Infact, that applies regardless, if shepard is twitching and foaming at the mouth, why not have a marauder just shoot him in the head?

It makes even less sense than the endings as is.

Modifié par Zyrious, 14 mars 2012 - 06:07 .

[DarkSeraphym]

Leafs43 wrote...

People who take the endings at face value believe in space magic, which makes them more similar to creationists than indoctrination theorists.

I take them at face value and I don't believe in space magic. To be honest, I didn't even bother making sense of what I saw. I hung around in the spoiler group before ME3 came out and I didn't bother when I found out what the endings were then either. Just wrote it off as an interesting idea with very poor execution.

[Pelle6666]

Yeah! Its pretty weak that the fans actually prefer to believe that the ending was just a dream rather then to face the fact that their favorite game series was slaughtered in five minutes.
This does not help the cause to bring us a dlc with alternative endings! I don't want a continuation of the story until this is fixed.

[Lemonwizard]

Leafs43 wrote...

People who take the endings at face value believe in space magic, which makes them more similar to creationists than indoctrination theorists.

Believing that the ending is what Bioware wrote is not the same as believing the ending is good.

[Rheinlandman]

Talogrungi wrote...

KorPhaeron wrote...

hmm I never saw shep wake up, i saw a badly burnt (someone) in armor take one breath.

You saw someone whose gender matched the Shepard you're playing in the armour you're seen wearing show visible signs of life in the place you were just injured.

C'mon..

Well thats an easy one, the shep breathing was a CGI file, not in game cinematic, thus how could they explain away your shep losing their custom head when they pan to it?

They made two shep breathing CGIs male shep and fem shep, and we know its Shep because it says so in the file name.

[Smiley556]

KorPhaeron wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

KorPhaeron wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

Tequila Man wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

Interesting, cos when I played the game, Indoctrination happend. In the game. Right in front of me.

Absolutely. Then, we shot him in the stomach. He fell down. Indoctrination failure.

Did you not get the ending where Shep is seen waking up in the rubble amidst the sound of reapers?

Like .. after being clipped by Harbinger's beam just before the nonsensical, dreamlike sequence .. ?

That's how I interpreted the ending I saw. Injured by Harbinger, Hallucinated, Woke Up.

hmm I never saw shep wake up, i saw a badly burnt (someone) in armor take one breath.

Yeah, I'm sure BioWare would have the ending be some other random N7 soldier taking a breath. Come on.

it could be anderson for all i know, it could be shep takeing his LAST bearth or vega, I dont know it cuts to credits after.

Thats the point, make up something not shown in the game to explain something shown is what people are doing.

It is shepard. Fact. Look up the filename of the cinematic.

[Rockpopple]

Tequila Man wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

People who take the endings at face value believe in space magic, which makes them more similar to creationists than indoctrination theorists.

Actually, we know we've been handed a pile of ****. Indoc theory is squinting your eyes and thinking its a sammich.

Actually, Leafs43 is exactly right: you're the ones taking things at face value. You're the creationists. You were told that a space man made the earth in 7 days, you shrug your shoulders and believe it. Indoc. Theorists look at what's going on around them and question the official version.

Of course, I completely reject that. I don't want to call you or anyone else a creationist or whatever. I'm just using your own metaphor against you. No offense.

[Verit]

Rockpopple wrote...

-Draikin- wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...
Tequila Man, you can't compare TIM's poor-ass version of Indoctrination to the real thing. Shepard was never, throughout the entire series, victim or nearly victim of the Reaper's most feared and insideous weapon. That alone begs the question: why in the 3rd act of this amazing trilogy did Shep never have to deal with Reaper Indoctrination?

Just checking, but basically you're saying that the scene where TIM was indoctrinating Shepard was in fact a hallucination in itself caused by Shepard already being indoctrinated? And he was in reality still lying on the ground in London after being hit by Harbinger's beam?

Yes!

The bullet points of Indoc. Theory holds that after Shep and HAMMER got ****kicked by Harbinger, he, and the player, were being indoctrinated. The endings are a result of whether they were successfull in indoctrinating you or not. Shepard never left London. 

Uhu. Shepard hallucinating about being indoctrinated because he was indoctrinated. If that's not grasping at straws I don't know what is. C'mon people, wake up, take a step back and look at the ending as a whole. Normandy and the epilogue included.

[Tequila Man]

Rockpopple wrote...


Of course, I completely reject that. I don't want to call you or anyone else a creationist or whatever. I'm just using your own metaphor against you. No offense.

No worries. I have a very strong feeling none of us is that thing.

[savionen]

Zyrious wrote...

Why would they do the stargazer scene?

You got me there. But it's a pointless scene regardless.

Why would they leave so little in-narrative evidence for non-forum gamers?

There's quite a lot. I always thought indoctrination was a possibility, from the beginning of ME3, or even ME2. I'm not going to write a 10 page response though, check out the theory.

Why is it not in the script?

It is. For example the God-kid saying "Wake up" instead of "Why are you here" if you have a high EMS score. Anderson making references to walls moving.

Why does getting hit by a giant laser trigger indoctrination?

A person is easier to indoctrinate if they're weak and/or pumping with adrenaline. Harbinger has always wanted to keep Shepard alive and indoctrinate him, or at least it'd be preferable to killing him.

How is the alliance not getting slaughtered and the crucible destroyed while shepard is twitching and convulsing on the ground hallucinating?

Not sure what you mean by this. They are getting slaughtered.

This theory is so rediculous. If this was the angle they were going for there'd be more hints, more clues to what the "Decisions" "truly" meant.

For that matter, if choosing green or blue "Kills" you then why not just shoot another laser, why bother indoctrinating shepard at all? Infact, that applies regardless, if shepard is twitching and foaming at the mouth, why not have a marauder just shoot him in the head?

It makes even less sense than the endings as is.

Modifié par savionen, 14 mars 2012 - 06:11 .

[balance5050]

Leafs43 wrote...

People who take the endings at face value believe in space magic, which makes them more similar to creationists than indoctrination theorists.

Yeah, I've always needed proof and have never really blindly believed things, the evidence screams indoctrination, and taking the endings as are is like going to church (a scientology church), or believing a politician.

Modifié par balance5050, 14 mars 2012 - 06:12 .

[KorPhaeron]

hex23 wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

 You pick a premise and then frantically search for anything that can be interpreted to support it, ignoring the premise's utter lack of expression anywhere else.




Seriously guys, let's get some Occam's Razor in here.  The ending wasn't cryptic and needing analysis, it was actually just poorly done.

I love it when people use the term Occam's Razor without even knowing what it means.

If we're looking for the simplest explanation hallucination/indoctrination is far more elegant than what we're shown. The alternative is Shepard alive after a space station blowing up, no Mass Relays, no Normandy, your crew is stranded, possibly forever on an alien world, no Citadel, millions of aliens stranded on Earth with no resources to sustain them, etc.

This is not even taking into account how nonsensical the Control/Destroy/Synthesis choices are if taken at face value.

That's simple to you?

Use Occom's Razor, for RL Bioware ending of Mass Effect 3 not for the character of mass effect in the game:huh:

If I didnt like (lets say) the ending of Return of the Jedi I base Occom's Razor on the the end of the movie that I in RL didnt like not on what Darth Sidious was thinking in the fictional universe of SW,

[Arokel]

Bit of a weird comparison but I kinda see where you are going. As a protestant Christian alot of the people I know believe the young Earth creationism stuff. I think it crazy personally but w/e.

I do think this has better chances of being true than young earth stuff though. I just played through again and its seems like Shepard is the only one who notices the kid. Even during the evacuation scene no one looks at or even acknowledges the kids existence besides Shep.

Idk if the indoctrination theory is true but its nice to have some hope.

[Verit]

hismastersvoice wrote...
The simplest available theory does not have to be correct one. People are acting as if Occam's Razor automatically disproves any theory based on assumption or interpretation of available info, when it's intended use is to manage the order of verification for cases with multiple theoretical approaches.

We have  a grand total of one theory here, that happens to be based on interpretation of existing data. Applying Razor here makes little sense.

How about the theory that the endings were quite simply rushed and poorly thought out? To me that's the one that by far makes the fewest assumptions.

Modifié par -Draikin-, 14 mars 2012 - 06:15 .

[Tequila Man]

Just to reiterate, so we can stay civil, I think you guys are (understandably) in horrible, "Zeus is god of lightning" level of denial.

But, seriously, if the Devs are half as smart as I think they are, they will look at this and take notes and do SOMETHING with.

You know, I realize: my problem isn't with the theory, it's with giving the writers that much credit after watching the abysmal stupidity that was the ending.

"You mean, it's not stupid in all ways that matter?" Sorry, my pragmatic cynicism just won't let me do it.

[Mcfly616]

I feel like most of the people against the indoctrination/dream theory are just against because they literally can't believe a developer would try it. I've heard no evidence to disprove it. And since there's so much evidence to prove its indoctrination, there's no other logical explanation. I would love to hear it from the nay-sayers....I'm not reaching for anything. And all of you other indoctrination theorists who say "I know I'm reaching but....", no you aren't. You're just hoping the theory is true. As someone else said earlier in the thread: there is no evidence to the contrary. All evidence points to indoctrination. There's no other excuse. And if there is, please let me hear from the nay-sayers how exactly is it that Shepard wakes up in London where he was blasted and knocked unconscious before reaching the conduit.....? Go ahead I'll wait for your "theory" of how that works. Indoctrination/dream is not a theory. It's fact. Play the game again.

[Zyrious]

savionen wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

Why would they do the stargazer scene?

You got me there. But it's a pointless scene regardless.

Why would they leave so little in-narrative evidence for non-forum gamers?

There's quite a lot. I always thought indoctrination was a possibility, from the beginning of ME3, or even ME2. I'm not going to write a 10 page response though, check out the theory.

Why is it not in the script?

It is. For example the God-kid saying "Wake up" instead of "Why are you here" if you have a high EMS score. Anderson making references to walls moving.

Why does getting hit by a giant laser trigger indoctrination?

A person is easier to indoctrinate if they're weak and/or pumping with adrenaline. Harbinger has always wanted to keep Shepard alive and indoctrinate him, or at least it'd be preferable to killing him.

How is the alliance not getting slaughtered and the crucible destroyed while shepard is twitching and convulsing on the ground hallucinating?

Not sure what you mean by this. They are getting slaughtered.

This theory is so rediculous. If this was the angle they were going for there'd be more hints, more clues to what the "Decisions" "truly" meant.

For that matter, if choosing green or blue "Kills" you then why not just shoot another laser, why bother indoctrinating shepard at all? Infact, that applies regardless, if shepard is twitching and foaming at the mouth, why not have a marauder just shoot him in the head?

It makes even less sense than the endings as is.

Shepard was passed out, that's why the kid says "Wake up". As for the difference in dialogue, the general impression is with low EMS he's more disgusted you managed to get here, thus the "More than you deserve" with low EMS as opposed to "more than you know" with high EMS. The walls shifting you also see while walking tot he terminal, it's just a function of the reaper-factory.

So...much...reaching. And again, if shepard is twitching and convulsing on the ground foaming at the mouth why not just fire another laser? Or have a marauder shooth im square in the head? Why bother with indoctrination now? Heck, how would EMS effect your "dream" at all? It wouldn't, yet EMS DOES effect things post-Laser yet it shouldn't if its "all a dream", the dream should play out the same regardless. How does having more military assets make you more likely to stop foaming if you pick destroy than less military assets?

Think about this logically. Stargazer scene, lack of *proper* narrative clues, lack of closure if this theory were true, nonsensical scenes if this theory were true. It just doesn't make sense. Indoctrination theory makes almost as little sense as "space magic".

Modifié par Zyrious, 14 mars 2012 - 06:18 .

[Tequila Man]

-Draikin- wrote...

How about the theory that the endings were quite simply rushed and poorly thought out? To me that's the one that by far makes the fewest assumptions.

Exactly.

[Tequila Man]

Mcfly616 wrote...

I've heard no evidence to disprove it.

Please. Don't use this logic. I'm begging you.

It's fact. Play the game again.

..................................ow. I think I just blew a lobe.

[Mcfly616]

The end game is already finished. They're not creating a "fixed ending dlc" using player feedback to appease the fans...they threw us a curveball(you would really put this past Bioware?) The ending is already done(just like the From Ashes dlc was done)....they'll release it in due time