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Indoctrination theory is like young Earth creationism.


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#176
balance5050

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savionen wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

Why would they do the stargazer scene?

You got me there. But it's a pointless scene regardless.

Why would they leave so little in-narrative evidence for non-forum gamers?

There's quite a lot. I always thought indoctrination was a possibility, from the beginning of ME3, or even ME2. I'm not going to write a 10 page response though, check out the theory.

Why is it not in the script?

It is. For example the God-kid saying "Wake up" instead of "Why are you here" if you have a high EMS score. Anderson making references to walls moving.

Why does getting hit by a giant laser trigger indoctrination?

A person is easier to indoctrinate if they're weak and/or pumping with adrenaline. Harbinger has always wanted to keep Shepard alive and indoctrinate him, or at least it'd be preferable to killing him.

How is the alliance not getting slaughtered and the crucible destroyed while shepard is twitching and convulsing on the ground hallucinating?

Not sure what you mean by this. They are getting slaughtered.

This theory is so rediculous. If this was the angle they were going for there'd be more hints, more clues to what the "Decisions" "truly" meant.

For that matter, if choosing green or blue "Kills" you then why not just shoot another laser, why bother indoctrinating shepard at all? Infact, that applies regardless, if shepard is twitching and foaming at the mouth, why not have a marauder just shoot him in the head?

It makes even less sense than the endings as is.


Stargazer scene, Harby using Sheps feelings of loss, regret, sadness against him. The kid symbolizes everyone Shep CAN'T save.

The Narative evidence goes back to ME1, talk Sarren into shooting himself, talk TIM into shooting himself. "The Arrival DLC, just serves as one giant clue with other, smaller clues sprinkled in.

Harby shot the giant laser, he's the star child, trying to indoctrinate you.

#177
DarkSeraphym

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Rockpopple wrote...

Actually, Leafs43 is exactly right: you're the ones taking things at face value. You're the creationists. You were told that a space man made the earth in 7 days, you shrug your shoulders and believe it. Indoc. Theorists look at what's going on around them and question the official version.

Of course, I completely reject that. I don't want to call you or anyone else a creationist or whatever. I'm just using your own metaphor against you. No offense.


No offense Rockpopple, but I think you may have missed the point of the OP's metaphor. The ability to question is not something that is exclusive to either the evolution or creationist side of it. I believe in evolution and I believe it functions by the mechanic of natural selection. I've never done the tests myself. I've never seen it happen under a microscope with bacteria or other types of microscopic organisms. I'm a graduate student and it is something that has just been engrained in me enough that I trust those who use the scientific method more than I trust the theories tossed out by those who do not. I'm just taking their word for it.

What is similar is the way in which the arguments are formulated. The "indoctrinators" point out that the ending has too many holes in it and that this theory does a better job of filling in the gaps (biologists will admit first hand that evolution has some holes in it). They claim that the writing is so poor that they cannot believe that a professional company who has put out quality games in the past could possibly have made something this poor. Thus they feel that it was intentional, that it was something that could not be mere coincidence and it must have had an Architect. Creationists believe the same thing. Likewise, "indoctrinators" seem to have an attachment to the outcome, hope, in the same way that creationists have an attachment to believing that Genesis is the literal word of God and is literally what happened.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 14 mars 2012 - 06:24 .


#178
Eudaemonium

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I love the indoctrination theory. I think it is simple and elegant, thematically beautiful, personal, and theoretically fascinating. I like the idea that after everything that has happened the true final battle is within Shepard herself, struggling whether to believe that they can win, which she'd started to doubt heavily since Thessia, or whether, like Saren and the Illusive Man, to give in to the Reapers in an attempt to save everyone/humanity/turians/whatever. Both Saren and the Illusive Man believed they were in control, but they were not. At teh end Shepard is given the same temptation, and it is in the hands of the player to resist or to give in. This ending does not offer closure. Maybe it even means the Reapers win, or maybe after taking her breath she goes on to actually secure victory. I do not know. But I find it compelling, and until Bioware states otherwise it is the interpretation of the ending I have chosen.

However, I do not expect it to ever be confirmed, nor do I expect a DLC or patch continuation from it. I expect it to be left as it is, open to interpretation.

#179
Verit

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Mcfly616 wrote...

I feel like most of the people against the indoctrination/dream theory are just against because they literally can't believe a developer would try it. I've heard no evidence to disprove it. And since there's so much evidence to prove its indoctrination, there's no other logical explanation

No other logical explanations? There are currently two theories:

- Bioware messed up the ending and introduced a ton of plotholes in the process
- Bioware made a revolutionary ending and everyting we see is all "just a dream". Soon they'll reveal the real ending as DLC that continues with Shepard waking up in London.

Which one sounds more logical?

#180
Rockpopple

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Zyrious wrote...

Why would they do the stargazer scene?

 

Dunno. That's a legitamate question to ask. It doesn't disprove Indoc. Theory, it just adds another question that needs to be answered.

Why would they leave so little in-narrative evidence for non-forum gamers?


Non-forum gamers have gotten it. Some of them. They did leave clues in the narrative, questions for gamers to ask, gamers who have been playing ME1 since the beginning. A few of them: Before the final assault, Shepard asks Hackett whether they should try to control the Reapers if TIM is right and it can be done. Hackett says uncategorically that Shepard must destroy the Reapers. In fact, you're told time and time again that the Reapers must be killed, nothing else will ensure survival.

Another clue is that Anderson is seen taking the Renegade action while TIM is seen taking the Control/Paragon action.

Another clue is that Synthesis is EXACTLY what Saren said he wanted to do, and Saren was deep inside Indoctrination.

Another clue is that if you take Destroy, the boy warns you that you will not survive, since you're partly Synthetic. But you don't die.

In fact, if you take Destroy, you end up blowing up a space station in space orbit, but you somehow survive at least long enough to take a breath. Why? How?

There are more clues there in the narrative. You don't have to be a forum goer to see them, but it helps.


Why is it not in the script?


What, you wanted a line in the script where it says, "From here on out, Shepard is undergoing an indoctrination trial by Harbinger?" The better question is why WOULD that be in the script?

Why does getting hit by a giant laser trigger indoctrination?


It doesn't. Shepard is special, he's proven to be able to resist Indoctrination, even under the harshest circumstances. Shepard is a bogeyman to the Reapers. They want him broken. In the ME series, the Reapers have spared Shepard from death before. In the Arrival, the Reapers had indoctrinated everyone on the Project. They could have killed Shepard then and there, but they didn't. They kept him alive. They obviously want him for a reason. The laser didn't Indoctrinate him. The laser left Shepard in the best condition for a Reaper indoctrination attempt.

How is the alliance not getting slaughtered and the crucible destroyed while shepard is twitching and convulsing on the ground hallucinating?


For all we know, they are. They could be being decimated, they could be fighting back, since it's been proven that conventional weapons can kill Reapers, and if you get the Destroy endings with over 4000 EMS, then the galaxy could be powerful enough to fight back. Remember what Javik kept saying: that in his Cycle, the races of the Galaxy never combined forces. The Protheans were basically on their own. Maybe that could beat the Reapers. Maybe not. We don't know.

This theory is so rediculous. If this was the angle they were going for there'd be more hints, more clues to what the "Decisions" "truly" meant.


Again, there were clues in the final scenes. The final decision was BioWare pulling a Hideo Kojima and breaking the 4th wall to involve the player directly in a ME process. That's what the theory holds, anyway.

For that matter, if choosing green or blue "Kills" you then why not just shoot another laser, why bother indoctrinating shepard at all? Infact, that applies regardless, if shepard is twitching and foaming at the mouth, why not have a marauder just shoot him in the head?


Because Green or Blue doesn't "kill" Shepard. It means Shepard, and you, the player, failed to resist Indoctrination. Welcome to the world of Saren and TIM. Again, this doesn't stop the Reapers from killing Shepard afterwards, but if all the Reapers wanted to do was kill Shepard, they've had plenty of previous opportunities where they chose not to.

It makes even less sense than the endings as is.


Not if you think about it.

But I'm glad you're asking the questions. Instead of throwing questions out there, which is good, look for answers to the questions. Or think about it. 

#181
KorPhaeron

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Mcfly616 wrote...

there is no evidence to the contrary. All evidence points to indoctrination. 


You're saying that I cant disprove the fictional fictional's ending of a fictional game:blink:

Modifié par KorPhaeron, 14 mars 2012 - 06:23 .


#182
ElectronicPostingInterface

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His dialog changes from "wake up" to "why are you here" with a low EMS?

...wow.

Indoctrination sounded crazy, but...man...

#183
Smiley556

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-Draikin- wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

I feel like most of the people against the indoctrination/dream theory are just against because they literally can't believe a developer would try it. I've heard no evidence to disprove it. And since there's so much evidence to prove its indoctrination, there's no other logical explanation

No other logical explanations? There are currently two theories:

- Bioware messed up the ending and introduced a ton of plotholes in the process
- Bioware made a revolutionary ending and everyting we see is all "just a dream". Soon they'll reveal the real ending as DLC that continues with Shepard waking up in London.

Which one sounds more logical?


The one with the good writing and no plotholes.

#184
Where my deeds have lead me

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and here we have a religious debate just waiting to happen thanks we get some controversy and a lot of comments on your post I hope your happy ****.

#185
Rockpopple

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DarkSeraphym wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Actually, Leafs43 is exactly right: you're the ones taking things at face value. You're the creationists. You were told that a space man made the earth in 7 days, you shrug your shoulders and believe it. Indoc. Theorists look at what's going on around them and question the official version.

Of course, I completely reject that. I don't want to call you or anyone else a creationist or whatever. I'm just using your own metaphor against you. No offense.


No offense Rockpopple, but I think you may have missed the point of the OP's metaphor. The ability to question is not something that is exclusive to either the evolution or creationist side of it. I believe in evolution and I believe it functions by the mechanic of natural selection. I've never done the tests myself. I've never seen it happen under a microscope. I'm a graduate student and it is something that has just been engrained in me enough that I trust those who use the scientific method more than I trust the theories tossed out by those who do not. I'm just taking their word for it.

What is similar is the way in which the arguments are formulated. The "indoctrinators" point out that the ending has too many holes in it and this is a way of filling in the gaps (God of the Gaps for Creationists). They claim that the writing is so poor that they cannot believe that a professional company who has put out quality games in the past could possibly have made something this poor. Thus they feel that it was intentional, that it was something that could not be mere coincidence and it must have had an Architect. Creationists believe the same thing. Likewise, "indoctrinators" seem to have an attachment to the outcome, hope, in the same way that creationists have an attachment to believing that Genesis is the literal word of God and is literally what happened.


I think it's a poor metaphor, in any case. Indoctrination theorists aren't adding new facts, ie: God, to the matter. They're in fact using all the stuff that they see in the endings, including the stuff that supposedly makes no sense, and seeing that in fact it makes perfect sense. 

And Indoctrinators have no hope that the outcome will someday be fixed through DLC or any reason. In fact, Indoctrinators are rather fatalistic. Most of us believe that the ending of ME3 will forever be a cliffhanger that explains nothing about the final outcome of the Reapers and the Galaxy forces. 

But those who take the endings at face value just accept everything that's given to them. Thematic consequences never introduced in the series before, space magic, out of character characters, they just accept it all, then they get angry.

It's just weird to me.

#186
Mcfly616

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It is the only Logic....haha you're being completely illogical to say there is no evidence of indoctrination....the game repeatedly slaps you in the face with it....I'll keep my logic until you give me evidence that disproved indoctrination....oh wait, there is none

#187
savionen

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PKchu wrote...

His dialog changes from "wake up" to "why are you here" with a low EMS?

...wow.

Indoctrination sounded crazy, but...man...


Vent boy also says "You can't save me..." What kind of kid says that?

#188
Tequila Man

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Smiley556 wrote...

The one with the good writing and no plotholes.


So, I guess it comes down to faith, really? No pun intended.

Indoc. theory has faith in the writers. This also will make them trolls of uniminagable epicness if it turns out to be true.

I think the writers have just pulled the worst God Machine I've ever seen. I am faithless.

#189
jtav

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When choosing between poor writing and the writers having some secret plan, choose the poor writing.

#190
Smiley556

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Tequila Man wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

The one with the good writing and no plotholes.


So, I guess it comes down to faith, really? No pun intended.

Indoc. theory has faith in the writers. This also will make them trolls of uniminagable epicness if it turns out to be true.

I think the writers have just pulled the worst God Machine I've ever seen. I am faithless.


After playing through the whole mass effect trilogy and its epic writing? Yes I do have some faith in Biowares writers.

But I also try to make up my mind. I dont believe something I dont see. The gaming experienced I had made sense. The theory your imposing is one that doesnt make sense, I see no reason to believe your explenation, it doesnt make sense to assume things that were logical in the game should be considered plotholes, just to make your theory hold any water.

Modifié par Smiley556, 14 mars 2012 - 06:30 .


#191
Rockpopple

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I find your lack of faith disturbing. lol

#192
v0rt3x22

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It is my assertion that it's far more simple and logical to assume that Bioware wrote a bad ending that doesn't make sense


uh oh - it's getting worse.

Yes - it IS far more simple - but no - not 'logical' to assume that BioWare wrote a bad ending.

That is not a 'Fact' or something 'Logical' - that is an 'Opinion' (which you're entitled to).

But as you already correctly put it: It is 'far more simple' to accept something is bad - rather than actively discussing and interpreting the ending in various educated ways.

Just as it is simplier to bash a company that they have no idea what they're doing with a product that they themselves came up with.

Again - you're entitled to your 'Opinion' - but let's not mix up words here and make opinions 'Fact'.

#193
Rockpopple

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If we're gonna go by Occam's Razor, it's easier to believe that the writing was deliberate, rather than the writers - who had been brilliant up and until this moment - suddenly got replaced by a group of 10th graders who decided to make up the ending on a whim.

I mean... you can believe that if you want.

#194
Zyrious

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Rockpopple wrote...

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Actually, Leafs43 is exactly right: you're the ones taking things at face value. You're the creationists. You were told that a space man made the earth in 7 days, you shrug your shoulders and believe it. Indoc. Theorists look at what's going on around them and question the official version.

Of course, I completely reject that. I don't want to call you or anyone else a creationist or whatever. I'm just using your own metaphor against you. No offense.


No offense Rockpopple, but I think you may have missed the point of the OP's metaphor. The ability to question is not something that is exclusive to either the evolution or creationist side of it. I believe in evolution and I believe it functions by the mechanic of natural selection. I've never done the tests myself. I've never seen it happen under a microscope. I'm a graduate student and it is something that has just been engrained in me enough that I trust those who use the scientific method more than I trust the theories tossed out by those who do not. I'm just taking their word for it.

What is similar is the way in which the arguments are formulated. The "indoctrinators" point out that the ending has too many holes in it and this is a way of filling in the gaps (God of the Gaps for Creationists). They claim that the writing is so poor that they cannot believe that a professional company who has put out quality games in the past could possibly have made something this poor. Thus they feel that it was intentional, that it was something that could not be mere coincidence and it must have had an Architect. Creationists believe the same thing. Likewise, "indoctrinators" seem to have an attachment to the outcome, hope, in the same way that creationists have an attachment to believing that Genesis is the literal word of God and is literally what happened.


I think it's a poor metaphor, in any case. Indoctrination theorists aren't adding new facts, ie: God, to the matter. They're in fact using all the stuff that they see in the endings, including the stuff that supposedly makes no sense, and seeing that in fact it makes perfect sense. 

And Indoctrinators have no hope that the outcome will someday be fixed through DLC or any reason. In fact, Indoctrinators are rather fatalistic. Most of us believe that the ending of ME3 will forever be a cliffhanger that explains nothing about the final outcome of the Reapers and the Galaxy forces. 

But those who take the endings at face value just accept everything that's given to them. Thematic consequences never introduced in the series before, space magic, out of character characters, they just accept it all, then they get angry.

It's just weird to me.


But you ARE adding more into it, you're adding interpretations that weren't intended. A "Mass Delusion" sequence does not match the flow of the series, breaks the narrative, and goes against the "ME 3 truly ends the trilogy" comments by the devs. When you see shepard in a pile of rubble (FYI there was barely any rubble approaching the conduit, it was flattened ground all the way on approach, wish some exploding vehicles nearby which i did not see in the "living" sequence) do you really think their intention was for people to nitpick the concrete and go "OMGOSH HES NOT ON CITADEL MUST BE DREAM!"? Really, do you honestly believe that? Do you honestly believe that isnt a stretch?

A line of thought - Maybe people are just nitpicking the cutscene a little too closely, CGI developers are not the same as game developers or writers, sometimes things get mistranslated. CGI guy reads "Shepards body, head not visible, in pile of rubble. Takes breath, cut to black" and does that. He probably doesn't even know wtf the citadel is made of. Or even wtf a citadel is. He just follows the outlines.

#195
Lemonwizard

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Mcfly616 wrote...

It is the only Logic....haha you're being completely illogical to say there is no evidence of indoctrination....the game repeatedly slaps you in the face with it....I'll keep my logic until you give me evidence that disproved indoctrination....oh wait, there is none




How about the fact that the climax of the game is already about the reapers attempting to indoctrinate Shepard, who then overcomes it and opens the citadel arms anyway?





Seriously, go back and play KotOR and see how subtle bioware is in any conversation where memory is discussed.

#196
balance5050

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-Draikin- wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

I feel like most of the people against the indoctrination/dream theory are just against because they literally can't believe a developer would try it. I've heard no evidence to disprove it. And since there's so much evidence to prove its indoctrination, there's no other logical explanation

No other logical explanations? There are currently two theories:

- Bioware messed up the ending and introduced a ton of plotholes in the process
- Bioware made a revolutionary ending and everyting we see is all "just a dream". Soon they'll reveal the real ending as DLC that continues with Shepard waking up in London.

Which one sounds more logical?


I'm sorry, but you would have to try REALLY hard to mess up as bad as they did with all the inconsistencies, half-truths, circular logic, and straight lies that that kid tells you... Like I'm amazed at all the falshoods in the end, you would have to try to do that, and they did try, because it all is just a red flag that the kid is lying/tryingto indoctrinate.

I'm surprised at how many heads this iis going over.

#197
Tequila Man

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Wait, I never said StarChild wasn't lying.

I think he was lying his electronic *** off.

#198
Lemonwizard

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Rockpopple wrote...

If we're gonna go by Occam's Razor, it's easier to believe that the writing was deliberate, rather than the writers - who had been brilliant up and until this moment - suddenly got replaced by a group of 10th graders who decided to make up the ending on a whim.

I mean... you can believe that if you want.




There are very clear flaws in the writing in both ME1 and ME2. This notion that they were perfect until the catalyst is false and I personally find it confusing how anybody is under this impression.

#199
Mcfly616

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Hmm more logical? Dropping the ball after 3 games of perfection up until the last 5 minutes, or Shepard being alive in London after breaking free of indoctrination? considering they're known to take risks and add deep twists to most of their games, I would definitely say that the more logical explanation is that the latter is more logical....considering SHEPARD IS ALIVE IN LONDON! Lol what other evidence do you need? You want them to spell it out for you? Blind leading the blind....

#200
savionen

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Here's some basic questions on God-Kid/Vent-Boy. Occam's razor would suggest the kid is in Shepard's mind.

-Why is Commander Shepard the only one that pays attention to the vent boy? It seems like Anderson can't see him.
-Why does the vent boy say "You can't save me" when you first see him? What kind of young kid would say that?
-Why does God Kid say "Wake up" softly instead of "Why are you here!?" if you have a high EMS score.
-How did the kid survive through a vent that says it's an electrical hazard?
-How did the kid survive even though he was in a building that got destroyed by Reapers?
-Why doesn't anyone help the kid get onto the shuttle? They completely ignore him. One of the guards is actually pointing his gun in the direction of the kid for a few seconds.
-Why is the vent boy also the god kid?
-Why is Shepard so jarred by this one kid even though he killed hundreds of thousands of batarians (including children)?

Modifié par savionen, 14 mars 2012 - 06:34 .