119 réponses à ce sujet

[Meltemph]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Guys let it go; it was just a badly written ending.

There as much from the game to give credence to the ending not being real as much if not more so, then the ending being real.

[Rawgrim]

Indoctrination is a slow process. Subtle at first, the target doesn`t even know its happening. Benezzia, the codex, and plenty others explains this very well throughout the entire series.

[bytemarks]

This proves nothing. The indoctrination didn't have an effect on him until the very end when he was weak and vulnerable. This would render it undetectable. All of the other signs were there.

[Sky Shadowing]

Also keep in mind that the Illusive Man was able to control Shepard against his own will (to the point of shooting Anderson). That's pretty clearly indoctrination- if he had that power because of Shepard's implants, he would have done it well before.

[Haasth]

Who says he necessarily had to be indoctrinated prior to the meeting with the Prothean VI? And even if he would have, it doesn't necessarily mean the VI would discover it. He showed no signs of indoctrination prior to the ending. 
I wouldn't but it past it to have Shepard lying there in the rubble for hours, maybe days, being indoctrinated.

Modifié par Haasth, 14 mars 2012 - 06:22 .

[Croakamancer]

Actually... Was Kai Lang confirmed as indoctrinated?

The game implies it, but I can't recal it ever being conclusively stated. He just works for the illusive Man. And the Prothens were known to have trouble detecting the indoctrinated.

Is there anything saying the Thessia VI wasn't on a timer? (also, if it's anti-indoctrination mesures were so good,, and Lang was indoctrinated, how did he steal it?)

Modifié par Croakamancer, 14 mars 2012 - 06:22 .

[Dap Brannigan]

I think it's also explicitly stated by Vigil that the Protheans were terrible at detecting indoctrination until it was too late.

Kai Leng = too late.
Shepard on Thessia = not too late.

[GTANJ]

Rawgrim wrote...

Indoctrination is a slow process. Subtle at first, the target doesn`t even know its happening. Benezzia, the codex, and plenty others explains this very well throughout the entire series.

That's why I can't believe that Shepard was indoctrinated after the Thessia mission. If it happens overtime, the VI would have caught Shepard's Indoctrination.

[v0rt3x22]

GTANJ wrote...

This theory of indoctrination being the ending of ME3 is based on the belief that Shepard has been systematically indoctrinated through the three games.

Wrong. There is no 'general main' belief that everyone supports.

Those who do support this theory have various reasons - and the one you stated is only one of many (by the way - I support the theory, but I don't support the belief that Shepard was indoctrinated throughout all three games.

Go here for more:

http://social.biowar...5/index/9727423

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9861052

http://social.biowar...5/index/9880796

http://social.biowar...5/index/9863664

http://social.biowar...5/index/9896187

http://social.biowar...index/9883268/6

http://social.biowar...91674/1#9895953

[hex23]

GTANJ wrote...

I just can't believe that Shepard could be indoctrinated in such a short amount of time. If the VI on Thessia didn't detect Shepard to being affected by the Reapers, I don't think he was indoctrinated.

Rawgrim wrote...

Indoctrination is a slow process. Subtle
at first, the target doesn`t even know its happening. Benezzia, the
codex, and plenty others explains this very well throughout the entire
series.

The Codex in "ME3" specifically states that rapid indoctrination is possible, but Reapers tend not to use it because the brain doesn't last as long.

Modifié par hex23, 14 mars 2012 - 06:23 .

[Linus108]

I just find the whole kid to be strange. No one ever noticed the kid or interacts with him except Shepard. In fact, the beginning when he is playing..Shepard is looking directly at him watching the kid play (eyes fixed). Later on, she sees him in the vent (conveniently, he shows up right as Anderson leaves).

Then if you watch the scene where he dies, not a single person notices him on the ground. Even when he gets on the ship, no one helps him up. He crawls into the ship, and you will notice he is by a bunch of soldiers feet who don't even wince or notice the little guy is there.

Not saying this is proof or anything. Just find it strange that the entire time the kid is in the game, not a single person notices him outside your character.

[Pelle6666]

It was all a dream, right!? .....he..he... right..? I mean... it cant be true, so... it must be a dream!

[Meltemph]

I agree though that it was not indoctrination. More of like others said a battle of wills and a hallucination to represent the struggle. Would explain Joker running from an explosion past the relays and would also explain multiple crew members with him. Either you think the writers are literally dumb and they didn't realize everyone of your party members were on earth(you know where the put them to begin with) or you think there was more going on then you initially thought.

[Haasth]

Croakamancer wrote...

Actually... Was Kai Leng confirmed as indoctrinated?

The game implies it, but I can't recal it ever being conflusively stated. He just works for the illusive man. And the Prothens were known to have trouble detecting the indoctrinated.

Is there anything saying the Thessia VI wasn't on a timer? (also, if it's anti-indoctrination mesures were so good,, and Lang was indoctrinated, how did he steal it?)

The Cerberus troops were indoctrinated at least, if Kai Leng specifically? Not confirmed. But one would assume so.
As for anti-indoctrination measures, they had removed those back on Cronos Station. The VI says something like his protocols were adjusted or some such. 

[Sarevok Synder]

Meltemph wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Guys let it go; it was just a badly written ending.

There as much from the game to give credence to the ending not being real as much if not more so, then the ending being real.

So instead of a badly written ending; we get a badly written one that wasn't real.

Yes, that's so much better........

[RowanCF]

 Not necessarily. Remember how indoctrination can take please either fast or slow? It's usually done slow so that higher functions are maintained for a long time. That's why those salarians on Virmire were all insane. Indoctrination must have been forced on them quickly and so they eventually went insane.

In Shepard's case doing it slowly and subtely was not possible since he had not been exposed to Reapers for a long period of time.

Modifié par RowanCF, 14 mars 2012 - 06:27 .

[Leafs43]

Linus108 wrote...

I just find the whole kid to be strange. No one ever noticed the kid or interacts with him except Shepard. In fact, the beginning when he is playing..Shepard is looking directly at him watching the kid play (eyes fixed). Later on, she sees him in the vent (conveniently, he shows up right as Anderson leaves).

Then if you watch the scene where he dies, not a single person notices him on the ground. Even when he gets on the ship, no one helps him up. He crawls into the ship, and you will notice he is by a bunch of soldiers feet who don't even wince or notice the little guy is there.

Not saying this is proof or anything. Just find it strange that the entire time the kid is in the game, not a single person notices him outside your character.

I always found the kid's dialog in the beginning very "off".

The kid just comes out and says, "Everyone is dying."  But how could the kid know what was going on when it was a surprise attack?  It just seems very condiluded that the kid knows exactly what is happening 2 minutes after the surprise attack, especially seeing as you never see him by anyone else until he hops aboard the shuttle.

Modifié par Leafs43, 14 mars 2012 - 06:25 .

[hex23]

Meltemph wrote...

Either you think the writers are literally dumb and they didn't realize everyone of your party members were on earth(you know where the put them to begin with) or you think there was more going on then you initially thought.

Dev tweet:

twitter.com/#!/JessicaMerizan/status/179828285327409152

So your team obviously didn't teleport, but she can't say what happend due to spoilers. Seems fairly obviously the end shouldn't be taken at face value.

Modifié par hex23, 14 mars 2012 - 06:26 .

[Linus108]

Pelle6666 wrote...

It was all a dream, right!? .....he..he... right..? I mean... it cant be true, so... it must be a dream!

Hell, with how illogical and nonsensical the ending was that we were given, a dream/indoctrination would make more sense.

How sad is that. The ending we got was so poorly written (in regards to plot holes, lore errors) that the entire Citadel sequence being a hallucination is a better explanation for what went down. 

Modifié par Linus108, 14 mars 2012 - 06:26 .

[Stalker]

GTANJ wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Indoctrination is a slow process. Subtle at first, the target doesn`t even know its happening. Benezzia, the codex, and plenty others explains this very well throughout the entire series.

That's why I can't believe that Shepard was indoctrinated after the Thessia mission. If it happens overtime, the VI would have caught Shepard's Indoctrination.

Being "indoctrinated" would define a state of mind where the victim is not aware of his actions anymore. Shepard however knew exactly what he was doing, while Kai Leng was a completely finished indoctrination victim.

The "process of getting indoctrinated" is probably not detectable.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 14 mars 2012 - 06:26 .

[GTANJ]

Meltemph wrote...

I agree though that it was not indoctrination. More of like others said a battle of wills and a hallucination to represent the struggle. Would explain Joker running from an explosion past the relays and would also explain multiple crew members with him. Either you think the writers are literally dumb and they didn't realize everyone of your party members were on earth(you know where the put them to begin with) or you think there was more going on then you initially thought.

I think it was a hallucination, but as I said, I think that is still a bad ending. This series needed closure, and the only "closure" we got is that either it was all a dream or all the species in the galaxy are screwed worse than before because the Relays were destroyed (meaning they are all dead).

[Rawgrim]

GTANJ wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Indoctrination is a slow process. Subtle at first, the target doesn`t even know its happening. Benezzia, the codex, and plenty others explains this very well throughout the entire series.

That's why I can't believe that Shepard was indoctrinated after the Thessia mission. If it happens overtime, the VI would have caught Shepard's Indoctrination.

This is because he is not indoctrinated untill the end of the game. The VI detects indoctrination, not the process leading up to indoctrination. Kind of like how one can`t detect pregnancy, the day after one had sex. If that makes sense.

[Turtlicious]

GTANJ wrote...

This theory of indoctrination being the ending of ME3 is based on the belief that Shepard has been systematically indoctrinated through the three games. However, there is one important part of ME3 that proves Shepard was not in any shape or form, indoctrinated. If he was, the Prothean VI on Thessia would have sensed that Shepard was indoctrinated to some level and would have said "Sensing Indoctrinated Lifeform" or something of that nature. Remember when the VI did that when Kai Leng showed up? Shepard wasn't indoctrinated at all. The theory is debunk. Sorry fans, it was just a bad ending.

you haven't read the thread. Please educate yourself on the theory before you attempt to debunk.

[Berkilak]

I don't subscribe to this indoctrination stuff, but Prothean tech isn't infallible. Javik mentions indoctrinated sleeper agents a few times.

[Turtlicious]

Rawgrim wrote...

GTANJ wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Indoctrination is a slow process. Subtle at first, the target doesn`t even know its happening. Benezzia, the codex, and plenty others explains this very well throughout the entire series.

That's why I can't believe that Shepard was indoctrinated after the Thessia mission. If it happens overtime, the VI would have caught Shepard's Indoctrination.

This is because he is not indoctrinated untill the end of the game. The VI detects indoctrination, not the process leading up to indoctrination. Kind of like how one can`t detect pregnancy, the day after one had sex. If that makes sense.

That's why I always gut check my girlfriend the day after.

you know, just to be sure.