119 réponses à ce sujet

[77boy84]

LucidStrike wrote...

Seems it's implied throughout the series that indoctrination works by CHANGING one's thoughts, not through lies. WHy would the Reapers lie about Destroy also destroying EDI and the Geth, rather than just convincing Shep destroying the Reapers was wrong in and of itself? =/

This theory doesn't make sense because not one of its proponents has explained to me the Geth/EDI thing. You guys think BioWare wanted us to risk the Geth and EDI on a HUNCH that it was a lie, when Shepard himself is given little dialogue to argue anything the Catalyst says? Doubtful.

The Geth/EDI thing kind of points towards the fact that it's harbinger messing with shepard.

If the reapers want Shepard to give in, and pick synthesis/control, they're going to make the destroy option look worse. They're going to say "If you do this, your friend, EDI, will die, and so will the Geth that you've become buddies with and given new life to", because they know Shepard will think twice about it if they frame it as "You could do this and everyone is happy, or  you could do this and you kill a bunch of your friends."

It's kind of goes along with control (bad) being blue, and destroy (good) being red. The reapers are trying to get into shepard's head, and bioware is trying to get into the player's head.

[Croakamancer]

Haasth wrote...

The Cerberus troops were indoctrinated at least, if Kai Leng specifically? Not confirmed. But one would assume so.
As for anti-indoctrination measures, they had removed those back on Cronos Station. The VI says something like his protocols were adjusted or some such.

*nods* but Leng was still able to move the thing, which'd be odd if it's anti-Indoctrination stuff had him pegged, and had security mesures in place against it.

As to if he was indoctrinated... you could go either way, but he certianly doesn't sound or act like the Cerberus troops. Remember that email? He taunts you. That could simply mean he was indoctrinated more subtly, but just as likely we have the same situation as organic mercs serving Saren. Just following orders.

Throwing the idea out there, at least. IMO there's nothing definitive for either side, though balance of evidence tends towards indoctrination. (The Harbinger sequence clinching it for me, personally)

[DextroDNA]

Why does everyone think he was getting indoctrinated? If your ESM was high enough at the end, and you saw Shepard take a breath in all that rubble, you'd notice it is STONE rubble. There is no stone on the Citadel (apart from the Krogan statues and other statues). Shepard was on Earth, after getting hit with Harbinger's laser. This means he was just dreaming the ending(s) while he was unconscious, but that doesn't mean he was indoctrinated. It just means he was dreaming. And the fight isn't over yet!
Look at my thread for more proof that the ending is a dream: http://social.biowar...90591/1#9891054

[hex23]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

I don't have to frame anything. It's exactly what they did. Wouldn't be the first time either. DA2 anyone?

Your logic has a couple flaws in it.

First off "Dragon Age II" =/= "Mass Effect 3". It's not even the same team.

Secondly, "Dragon Age" isn't remotely as popular, successful, or critically acclaimed as the "Mass Effect" series. So dropping the ball on one, isn't the same as dropping the ball on the other. "Dragon Age" is like a side project, "Mass Effect" is the companies #1 series and the most critically acclaimed franchise EA has. Ever.

Lastly, and most importantly, Bioware has been tweeting nonstop more or less telling people "don't take the ending at face value". Why would they do that, if we're going by your logic?

[Koobarex]

For all it's worth Shepard could as well be indoctrinated during his run towards the Citadel beam and towards Harbinger - remember that inactive Reaper in ME2? And the people being indoctrinated as soon as they walked aboard it? Perhaps it can happen quickly when approaching Harbinger, THE Reaper of Reapers. Shepard just runs towards the beam-lift and doesn't even know that his mind is being messed with by Mr. H...

[Koobarex]

hex23 wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

I don't have to frame anything. It's exactly what they did. Wouldn't be the first time either. DA2 anyone?

Your logic has a couple flaws in it.

First off "Dragon Age II" =/= "Mass Effect 3". It's not even the same team.

Secondly, "Dragon Age" isn't remotely as popular, successful, or critically acclaimed as the "Mass Effect" series. So dropping the ball on one, isn't the same as dropping the ball on the other. "Dragon Age" is like a side project, "Mass Effect" is the companies #1 series and the most critically acclaimed franchise EA has. Ever.

Lastly, and most importantly, Bioware has been tweeting nonstop more or less telling people "don't take the ending at face value". Why would they do that, if we're going by your logic?

They did? Could you point me to some sources? This may be the beam of hope I really, really, really need right now.

[Sarevok Synder]

hex23 wrote...



Your logic has a couple flaws in it.

First off "Dragon Age II" =/= "Mass Effect 3". It's not even the same team.

Secondly, "Dragon Age" isn't remotely as popular, successful, or critically acclaimed as the "Mass Effect" series. So dropping the ball on one, isn't the same as dropping the ball on the other. "Dragon Age" is like a side project, "Mass Effect" is the companies #1 series and the most critically acclaimed franchise EA has. Ever.

Lastly, and most importantly, Bioware has been tweeting nonstop more or less telling people "don't take the ending at face value". Why would they do that, if we're going by your logic?

Don't give me that. They are under the same management.

Dragon Age Origins sold far more than ME1 or 2.

Ever? really. Too bad it is nowhere near being their biggest seller. Try again.

Where is the evidence of DLC? They also denied the endings were as the leak suggested a couple of weeks ago. We know how that turned out.

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 14 mars 2012 - 06:55 .

[Brass_Buckles]

Actually, the Prothean VI may be detecting Shepard as indoctrinated. Every time it tells you that it detects an "indoctrinated presence," it is looking at Shepard, and Shepard has just spoken. At least, that is what I remember from my game. And every time, before I realized someone else had just arrived, my reaction was something along the lines of: Hey wait what? --But then TIM or a lackey would show up.

So the Prothean VI doesn't necessarily dismiss the possibility that you've been in the process of a slow indoctrination.

[Sarevok Synder]

Brass_Buckles wrote...

Actually, the Prothean VI may be detecting Shepard as indoctrinated. Every time it tells you that it detects an "indoctrinated presence," it is looking at Shepard, and Shepard has just spoken. At least, that is what I remember from my game. And every time, before I realized someone else had just arrived, my reaction was something along the lines of: Hey wait what? --But then TIM or a lackey would show up.

So the Prothean VI doesn't necessarily dismiss the possibility that you've been in the process of a slow indoctrination.

That assassin was present both times it was said.

[Brass_Buckles]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Brass_Buckles wrote...

Actually, the Prothean VI may be detecting Shepard as indoctrinated. Every time it tells you that it detects an "indoctrinated presence," it is looking at Shepard, and Shepard has just spoken. At least, that is what I remember from my game. And every time, before I realized someone else had just arrived, my reaction was something along the lines of: Hey wait what? --But then TIM or a lackey would show up.

So the Prothean VI doesn't necessarily dismiss the possibility that you've been in the process of a slow indoctrination.

That assassin was present both times it was said.

Yes, but again, it was looking at Shepard, and Shepard had just spoken.  It took a moment before the camera panned to Kai Leng even though you knew he, or someone else, had arrived.  I believe that was intentional.  Even at the time, during my first playthrough, it made me wonder.

[Sarevok Synder]

Brass_Buckles wrote...


Yes, but again, it was looking at Shepard, and Shepard had just spoken.  It took a moment before the camera panned to Kai Leng even though you knew he, or someone else, had arrived.  I believe that was intentional.  Even at the time, during my first playthrough, it made me wonder.

Because Shepard activated it.

[Rockpopple]

GTANJ wrote...

This theory of indoctrination being the ending of ME3 is based on the belief that Shepard has been systematically indoctrinated through the three games. However, there is one important part of ME3 that proves Shepard was not in any shape or form, indoctrinated. If he was, the Prothean VI on Thessia would have sensed that Shepard was indoctrinated to some level and would have said "Sensing Indoctrinated Lifeform" or something of that nature. Remember when the VI did that when Kai Leng showed up? Shepard wasn't indoctrinated at all. The theory is debunk. Sorry fans, it was just a bad ending.

ABSOLUTELY FALSE.

You don't understand Indoc. Theory. It doesn't hold that Shepard has been Indoctrinated, or even suffered an attempted indoctrination, at any point in the game other than after his squad and HAMMER were obliterated by Harbinger in the final moments of the game.

Geez. I wish people would actually LOOK UP Indoc. Theory and read the opening posts in their entirety. 

[hex23]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Don't give me that. They are under the same management.

Dragon Age Origins sold far more than ME1 or 2.

Ever? really. Too bad it is nowhere near being their biggest seller. Try again.

Where is the evidence of DLC? They also denied the endings were as the leak suggested a couple of weeks ago. We know how that turned out.

"Dragon Age: Origins" didn't sell more than "ME1" and "ME2". What the hell are you smoking?

Same management =/= SAME TEAM. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to grasp.

There is a difference between denying something and actively promoting it. They have been tweeting nonstop the last 2-3 days making cryptic remarks about how the end shouldn't be taken at face value.

Ask yourself, why would they do that? Going by your logic how does that make sense, on any level? It doesn't.

As far as the "biggest seller" comment.....what the hell does that have to do with anything?

It's the biggest franchise Bioware has, and EA bought Bioware....ergo, it's in EA and Bioware's best interest to not let it crash and burn.

Modifié par hex23, 14 mars 2012 - 07:21 .

[mackan__s]

Who says he was it on Thessia? it was after the beam all went crazy

[hex23]

Koobarex wrote...

They did? Could you point me to some sources? This may be the beam of hope I really, really, really need right now.

Check the Mass Effect twitter, Evil Chris's, or Jessica Merizan's twitter feed. Or there should be a "Mass Effect Tweet" thread somewhere in this forum. It's becoming increasingly obvious the end isn't actually the end.

[Sarevok Synder]

hex23 wrote...

"Dragon Age: Origins" didn't sell more than "ME1" and "ME2". What the hell are you smoking?

Same management =/= SAME TEAM. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to grasp.

There is a difference between denying something and actively promoting it. They have been tweeting nonstop the last 2-3 days making cryptic remarks about how the end shouldn't be taken at face value.

Ask yourself, why would they do that? Going by your logic how does that make sense, on any level? It doesn't.

As far as the "biggest seller" comment.....what the hell does that have to do with anything?

It's the biggest franchise Bioware has, and EA bought Bioware....ergo, it's in EA and Bioware's best interest to not let it crash and burn.

http://www.escapistm...ng-BioWare-Game: Yes it did.


Management call the shots, I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp.

And this proves they are going to do anything about it, how? They claimed the endings weren't as they turned out to be. Their word means nothing.

EA like money; that's where their priorities lie, get it?

As my link proves, it isn't their biggest franchise. Your bald assertions are not fact.

[Urumashi]

SyxxByNyne wrote...

This is discussed in great detail in the hallucination/indoctrination thread. There are several theories to explain this, including the idea that the Protheans didn't know enough about indoctrination to detect subtle yet incomplete indoctrination. If you want more, just search that thread for it.

This, and the fact that full indoctrination did not kick in until soverign landed on earth and started shooting at the people running for the portal to the citadel

[HrznKn]

doesnt this screen just disprove the whole indoctrination theory?

http://cdn2.gamefron...c-message-2.jpg

If he was indoctrinated and it was all a hallucination, he wouldnt have ended the threat right?

Modifié par HrznKn, 14 mars 2012 - 07:37 .

[Sarevok Synder]

HrznKn wrote...

doesnt this screen just disprove the whole indoctrination theory?



If he was indoctrinated and it was all a hallucination, he wouldnt have ended the threat right?

There are a few who are still in the denial stage, they may never recover.

[Urumashi]

HrznKn wrote...

doesnt this screen just disprove the whole indoctrination theory?



If he was indoctrinated and it was all a hallucination, he wouldnt have ended the threat right?

Simply put, no. Half the purpose of this whole thing has been Bioware attempting to break down the fourth wall and "indoctrinate" the player, by providing this closing window not only is the player convinced that the game is in fact over, it's also a hint as to the validity of the theory. Think of it like this, if shepard really is a "legend" and presumably dead, why would you "continue to build on that legend" through further gameplay?

[Koobarex]

hex23 wrote...

Koobarex wrote...

They did? Could you point me to some sources? This may be the beam of hope I really, really, really need right now.

Check the Mass Effect twitter, Evil Chris's, or Jessica Merizan's twitter feed. Or there should be a "Mass Effect Tweet" thread somewhere in this forum. It's becoming increasingly obvious the end isn't actually the end.

Oh. Bless you. 

[Sarevok Synder]

Urumashi wrote...

Think of it like this, if shepard really is a "legend" and presumably dead, why would you "continue to build on that legend" through further gameplay?

Because they want to sell DLC? Doesn't mean they have any intention of fixing the ending.

[Urumashi]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Urumashi wrote...

Think of it like this, if shepard really is a "legend" and presumably dead, why would you "continue to build on that legend" through further gameplay?

Because they want to sell DLC? Doesn't mean they have any intention of fixing the ending.

So you're saying that there will be DLC, but there won't be DLC pertaining to the ending....ok....and you believe this because....?

[Sarevok Synder]

Urumashi wrote...

So you're saying that there will be DLC, but there won't be DLC pertaining to the ending....ok....and you believe this because....?

Because Casey Hudson said he was happy with the endings. And the fact the game resets to just before the point of no return of attacking the Cerberus base, meaning any single player DLC can be incorporated before the end. I have yet to see any evidence that they are going to do anything about the endings.

It's just pure speculation.

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 14 mars 2012 - 07:58 .

[Archangel6902]

I'm sorry I don' buy that Indoctrination theory. I think it was just something contrived in the minds of those with no other better answers or theories. A clever theorist can take just about anything and put a spin on it to make it tie in with just about anything else. The protheans fought the reapers a hell of a lot longer than the current cycles inhabitants did, I'm pretty sure if you want to hypothesize, that they could have easily picked up even subtle indoctrination, or even the slight lingering tendrils of indoctrination inducing energy.