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[Nefelius]

Astarmos wrote...

If indoctrination was so easily detected and defeated than Saren wouldn't be indoctrinated along with Benezia. Benezia never wanted to be a servant of a reaper. If she detected the attempt, then she would run or whatever. You don't believe that she just stood and waited "perhaps it is a headache, perfectly normal, i will go away".

Please go and play ME1.

Benezia clearly stated " I thought i was powerful enough to stop Saren.I was foolish to believe i could resist it. I didn't. I used all of my will to hold the last corner of my sanity untouched so i can tell someone who can reach me." Not 100% accuracy in quoting ofc.

Modifié par Nefelius, 14 mars 2012 - 07:22 .

[Rocktel]

Transgirlgamer wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

Nowhere in the codex does it say that indoctrination works via hallucinations.

In ME2 on the 'dead' reaper getting the IFF, the logs say that the crewmwmbers had many symptoms as they were being indoctrinated, including hallucinations.

They saw a couple things in the walls. They didn't suddenly think they were doing something else. That's not how indoctrination works.

In all cases of indoctrination the victim wants to help the Reapers. Shepard didn't. Therefore his is not indoctrinated.

[Walzon]

theory makes sense, its cool, but i just wish bioware showed us this. this would be an OH **** moment and i would be like PLOT TWIST BEST GAME EVA when shep kicks harbingers ass and flies into the sunset with his LI with epic music playing in the background. but its not, Mass Effect is def not the type of game to leave you hanging and thinking (previous two games were as straightforward as could be = shep beats saren, shep destroies the reaper base). endings are what we are shown, plot twists should have been revealed (bioware would want to show off their plottwist skills on players first runthrough)

[Urumashi]

Naarad wrote...

You deny the endings to support the Indoctrination theory. But if that was really what was going on, believe me, the writers would have put plausible, easy to understand, proof of that being the case. That's not the case, they actually go all the way to show you indoctrination... on TIM.

1. The endings are part of the theory, we don't deny them, we factor them in.
2. There is plausible easy to understand evidence both physical and in the writing.
3. Saying "believe me" does not make you sound smart, it makes you sound like you're begging for respect without proper evidence to back your claims.

4. Please dont waste forum threads denying something until you've actually taken the time to review the 400+ pages of evidence much of us have been working over for the past two weeks.

[Nefelius]

Urumashi wrote...

Naarad wrote...



4. Please dont waste forum threads denying something until you've actually taken the time to review the 400+ pages of evidence much of us have been working over for the past two weeks.

I saw no evidence there. Only assumptions made out of desperate imagination.
Again the only evidence we have is Prothean VI statement, whether true or not. It's a fact and you can't deny that it is in game. No other facts like this are in game.

[Astarmos]

Nefelius wrote...

Astarmos wrote...

If indoctrination was so easily detected and defeated than Saren wouldn't be indoctrinated along with Benezia. Benezia never wanted to be a servant of a reaper. If she detected the attempt, then she would run or whatever. You don't believe that she just stood and waited "perhaps it is a headache, perfectly normal, i will go away".

Please go and play ME1.

Benezia clearly stated " I thought i was powerful enough to stop Saren.I was foolish to believe i could resist it. I didn't. I used all of my will to hold the last corner of my sanity untouched so i can tell someone who can reach me." Not 100% accuracy in quoting ofc.

I played a few times ME1 however it was some time ago. So thanks for the quote.
It only proves the power of indoctrination. Indoctrination is about changing someones mind, perhaps even its structure. It is not a matter of will. Of course, like in case of Benezia and Saren, you can maybe break from the will of the reapers but not for long. If it wasn't the case, then Saren wouldn't just shoot himself asap.

[Nefelius]

Astarmos wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Astarmos wrote...

If indoctrination was so easily detected and defeated than Saren wouldn't be indoctrinated along with Benezia. Benezia never wanted to be a servant of a reaper. If she detected the attempt, then she would run or whatever. You don't believe that she just stood and waited "perhaps it is a headache, perfectly normal, i will go away".

Please go and play ME1.

Benezia clearly stated " I thought i was powerful enough to stop Saren.I was foolish to believe i could resist it. I didn't. I used all of my will to hold the last corner of my sanity untouched so i can tell someone who can reach me." Not 100% accuracy in quoting ofc.

I played a few times ME1 however it was some time ago. So thanks for the quote.
It only proves the power of indoctrination. Indoctrination is about changing someones mind, perhaps even its structure. It is not a matter of will. Of course, like in case of Benezia and Saren, you can maybe break from the will of the reapers but not for long. If it wasn't the case, then Saren wouldn't just shoot himself asap.

noone agrues the power of indoctrination.
We argue about Shepard being indoctrinated is false because the only real fact there is that touches this theme - is Prothean VI statement. No other facts there are ingame. Player's assumptions and speculations are not facts they are speculations and assumptions, thus can't be undeniably true.
So you can't undeniably state that Shepard is indoctrinated due to lack of real facts that lead towards this conclusion.
Howewer we can undeniably state that Shepard is NOT indoctrinated due to presense of  a fact that leads to this conclusion.

[Astarmos]

Nefelius wrote...

Astarmos wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Astarmos wrote...

If indoctrination was so easily detected and defeated than Saren wouldn't be indoctrinated along with Benezia. Benezia never wanted to be a servant of a reaper. If she detected the attempt, then she would run or whatever. You don't believe that she just stood and waited "perhaps it is a headache, perfectly normal, i will go away".

Please go and play ME1.

Benezia clearly stated " I thought i was powerful enough to stop Saren.I was foolish to believe i could resist it. I didn't. I used all of my will to hold the last corner of my sanity untouched so i can tell someone who can reach me." Not 100% accuracy in quoting ofc.

I played a few times ME1 however it was some time ago. So thanks for the quote.
It only proves the power of indoctrination. Indoctrination is about changing someones mind, perhaps even its structure. It is not a matter of will. Of course, like in case of Benezia and Saren, you can maybe break from the will of the reapers but not for long. If it wasn't the case, then Saren wouldn't just shoot himself asap.

noone agrues the power of indoctrination.
We argue about Shepard being indoctrinated is false because the only real fact there is that touches this theme - is Prothean VI statement. No other facts there are ingame. Player's assumptions and speculations are not facts they are speculations and assumptions, thus can't be undeniably true.
So you can't undeniably state that Shepard is indoctrinated due to lack of real facts that lead towards this conclusion.
Howewer we can undeniably state that Shepard is NOT indoctrinated due to presense of  a fact that leads to this conclusion.

You are right and it would be good to hear some other reasons for indoctrination theory, not the false one about trolling prothean VI. I wanted to think about the other games of the series.

Modifié par Astarmos, 14 mars 2012 - 07:41 .

[Apathy1989]

I can see the idea of being indoctrinated in the last few minutes, but not for the entire game. And if this idea was true, the ending still sucks. Truly sucks.

If shepherd had been indoctrinated, the decision shepherd made would show to make sense, then the situation would warp back to reality - where the game would end. That would be an indoctrination ending.

[PX6DEVASTATER]

Rocktel wrote...

Transgirlgamer wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

Nowhere in the codex does it say that indoctrination works via hallucinations.

In ME2 on the 'dead' reaper getting the IFF, the logs say that the crewmwmbers had many symptoms as they were being indoctrinated, including hallucinations.

They saw a couple things in the walls. They didn't suddenly think they were doing something else. That's not how indoctrination works.

In all cases of indoctrination the victim wants to help the Reapers. Shepard didn't. Therefore his is not indoctrinated.

In what cases besides Saren did the vicitm want to help the Reapers? If it only worked on people who wanted to help the Reapers that would render indoctrination a bit redundant.

[Urumashi]

savionen wrote...

The only counter to the indoctrination theory is that it was all just "bad writing".

-Why is Commander Shepard the only one that pays attention to the vent boy? It seems like Anderson can't see him.
-Why does the vent boy say "You can't save me" when you first see him?
-Why does God Kid say "Wake up" softly instead of "Why are you here!?" if you have a high EMS score.
-How did the kid survive through a vent that says it's an electrical hazard?
-How did the kid survive even though he was in a building that got destroyed by Reapers?
-Why doesn't anyone help the kid get onto the shuttle? They completely ignore him. One of the guards is actually pointing his gun in the direction of the kid for a few seconds.
-Why is the vent boy also the god kid?
-Why is Shepard so jarred by this one kid even though he killed hundreds of thousands of batarians (including children)?

It is at this point i wish to direct you to my first comment on the indoctrination thread, i believe around page 280 or so, hard to find it after it's been buried. Much of this has been covered already anyway within the thread so i invite you to take a look around and find the answers yourself.

[Urumashi]

Nefelius wrote...

Urumashi wrote...

Naarad wrote...



4. Please dont waste forum threads denying something until you've actually taken the time to review the 400+ pages of evidence much of us have been working over for the past two weeks.

I saw no evidence there. Only assumptions made out of desperate imagination.
Again the only evidence we have is Prothean VI statement, whether true or not. It's a fact and you can't deny that it is in game. No other facts like this are in game.

There's actually plenty of solid evidence between lines of code within the game istelf pertaining to yet unused variables and conditions and props such as the dream trees being present before moving into the citadel. I suggest you read in a bit further before you start passing things off as assumptions.

[Naarad]

This goes to prove what I said on my original post. I didn't need to read 400+ pages on the indoctrination theories (really, you don't need more than 5 minutes of reading to get the general idea of it).

As I said, it's a cool theory, but it's not solid when you have to go as far as ignoring things we've seen not in one, but three games and chalk those things that can screw your theory to "coincidences happen".

As passionate as the discussion whether Shepard was indoctrinated or not, the simple, cold fact, is that no ending hides so much information that unless you do come to forums and themed sites you can understand it. That's not a good ending, nor a brilliant one, it's just the byproduct of an ending that is less than ideal and fails to give the answers we wanted to have.

[Smiley556]

So you are saying that Harbinger couldnt have TRIED to indoctrinate shepard at the end, because shepard wasnt already indoctrinated when he got to the prothean VI earlier? That, good sir, makes absolutely no sense.

[Lambchopz]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

I will say it one more time: this argument is pointless.

It doesn't matter what you think of the theory.

Both groups of people clearly dislike the current ending. Stick with that.

Speak for yourself. I loved the ending and support the indoctrination theory.

Would you love it if the theory was incorrect? Would you dissaprove of a DLC to either implement the theory, or change the ending into one that doesn't suck?

I would imagine you are in small minority within a minority here. Minorityception.

I do think many people are genuinely banking on the theory being correct, and hoping a DLC reflecting it will follow suit.

Otherwise, the theory is kind of pointless.

[Leafs43]

 If the theory doesn't work support why it doesn't with facts.

Don't say the theory doesn't work because you dislike it.

[Naarad]

Leafs43 wrote...

 If the theory doesn't work support why it doesn't with facts.

Don't say the theory doesn't work because you dislike it.

I didn't say I dislike it. It's pretty damn clever, and I think it's a cool theory. I said why it doesn't work (for me), it's two whole different things. 

[Astarmos]

Smiley556 wrote...

So you are saying that Harbinger couldnt have TRIED to indoctrinate shepard at the end, because shepard wasnt already indoctrinated when he got to the prothean VI earlier? That, good sir, makes absolutely no sense.

He would rather kill him. Without crucible fleet will lose. Without Shepard to enter the citadel reapers will win.

[MustacheManatee]

If you read the codex entry on indoctrination, they go out of their way to tell you that fast indoctrination is possible. This is not necessary info unless it pertains to the end. Just because the VI does not sense indoctrination, doesn't mean it's a FACT that Shep wasn't indoctrinated at the end. In fact, it is my assertion that he is never fully indoctrinated anyway. The whole ending sequence is likely about Shep fighting off indoctrination.
On the flip side of that, one of the symptoms of slow indoctrination is headaches and buzzing sounds in your head. It is a FACT that Shepard complains to Vega about hearing a buzzing. Don't remember exactly when this convo takes place, but I definitely remember it happening.
I make lots of reasonable assumption on the FACTS I uncover in my forum thread "Why Mass Effect 3 isn't over yet". Perhaps you should read it before you assume that there are NO FACTS to support the indoctrination theory. I have SEVERAL facts. The only fact you present is the prothean VI not sensing indoctrination. This is a weak argument. Please do research and give me multiple facts to support your position, as I did.

[Naarad]

Smiley556 wrote...

So you are saying that Harbinger couldnt have TRIED to indoctrinate shepard at the end, because shepard wasnt already indoctrinated when he got to the prothean VI earlier? That, good sir, makes absolutely no sense.

Again, Occam's razor: What's simpler?
Indoctrinate a guy for the sake of it before he reaches the citadel. OR
Blast him into oblivion with your ray of mass destruction because, you know, you are already winning.

[adam_nox]

I know people like complex stuff, but it's simple. Shep was knocked unconcious by the blast, he wakes up or revives in the perfect ending. Everything in between never happened or was some vision. It likely had little to do with indoctrination. The boy was just in his dreams because he represented the fate of mankind and he couldn't get over seeing him die.

He just got knocked out or maybe was technically dead for a bit, who knows. Why end the game like that, who knows. But there it is, simple and obvious when you think about it.

[Naarad]

MustacheManatee wrote...

If you read the codex entry on indoctrination, they go out of their way to tell you that fast indoctrination is possible. This is not necessary info unless it pertains to the end. Just because the VI does not sense indoctrination, doesn't mean it's a FACT that Shep wasn't indoctrinated at the end. In fact, it is my assertion that he is never fully indoctrinated anyway. The whole ending sequence is likely about Shep fighting off indoctrination.
On the flip side of that, one of the symptoms of slow indoctrination is headaches and buzzing sounds in your head. It is a FACT that Shepard complains to Vega about hearing a buzzing. Don't remember exactly when this convo takes place, but I definitely remember it happening.
I make lots of reasonable assumption on the FACTS I uncover in my forum thread "Why Mass Effect 3 isn't over yet". Perhaps you should read it before you assume that there are NO FACTS to support the indoctrination theory. I have SEVERAL facts. The only fact you present is the prothean VI not sensing indoctrination. This is a weak argument. Please do research and give me multiple facts to support your position, as I did.

Wouldn't it make sense to think it's actually because of TIM, which we do see indoctrinated pretty much in a whim?

[Urumashi]

Naarad wrote...

This goes to prove what I said on my original post. I didn't need to read 400+ pages on the indoctrination theories (really, you don't need more than 5 minutes of reading to get the general idea of it).

As I said, it's a cool theory, but it's not solid when you have to go as far as ignoring things we've seen not in one, but three games and chalk those things that can screw your theory to "coincidences happen".

As passionate as the discussion whether Shepard was indoctrinated or not, the simple, cold fact, is that no ending hides so much information that unless you do come to forums and themed sites you can understand it. That's not a good ending, nor a brilliant one, it's just the byproduct of an ending that is less than ideal and fails to give the answers we wanted to have.

First off, by stating that you've only skimmed the 400+ pages you're just reaffirming that you don't have a firm grasp of the entire theory, in the same way i wouldn't "skim" a medical journal and then call myself a doctor. If there's a lot of information on something, you need to have a deep understanding of said information before you can claim to validate your opinions based on that info. Additionally, we've covered this, you have to dig for information because this ISNT the ending, that's the whole point, if bioware made this ending then after the credits had it flash a giant neon sign that said "real ending to follow in a couple'a days" it wouldnt exactly be that impressive now would it? The whole point is that they are leaving an intentionally crappy ending behind so that we, the gamers have to uncover the mystery a bit before they give us the real one.

[Nefelius]

Smiley556 wrote...

So you are saying that Harbinger couldnt have TRIED to indoctrinate shepard at the end, because shepard wasnt already indoctrinated when he got to the prothean VI earlier? That, good sir, makes absolutely no sense.

There are no facts that point to that. So believing in this makes no sense too. The only fact that we got about this is that Habinja shoots a big red fking laser to kill Shepard. I doubt this can be passed as indoctrination attempt. 
Again the shooting part is a fact, the "hidden behind this" indoctrination part is a speculation.

Modifié par Nefelius, 14 mars 2012 - 08:00 .