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[Deltateam Elcor]

Astarmos wrote...

Peer of the Empire wrote...

Rocktel wrote...
They saw a couple things in the walls. They didn't suddenly think they were doing something else. That's not how indoctrination works.

In all cases of indoctrination the victim wants to help the Reapers. Shepard didn't. Therefore his is not indoctrinated.

If we look at it as a meta game, Shephard indeed was considering helping the Reapers, and many players no doubt chose an ending that did help the Reapers.  Synthesis is simply Reaperization; Control ending is straight up indoctrination.  These players were swayed from the path of destroying the Reapers by the words of a Reaper

Synthesis ending isn't "reaperization. It is completely different then husks, indoctrination and so on. You do not modify existing life like normally reapers do - you are changing DNA itself and Joker and EDI seems like they are the same people. Also plants are changed(because of DNA change).

Thats not really what its about, the whole idea around this problem of "Chaos" apparently being the reason for the reapers, choosing to combine Synthetic life and Organic life, is simply saying adding order to chaos, you literally do their job for them, its like harbinger just slaps shepard in the face and says "You have spent 3 years trying to stop us, ultimately you have joined us".

It wouldnt stop them from making true synthetics either, which makes it pointless in a way.

Modifié par Deltateam Elcor, 14 mars 2012 - 09:24 .

[Deltateam Elcor]

Astarmos wrote...

Lol and you think that this is a right thing to say? You think that
normal people will search through over 400 pages were most of the posts
are like "ending sucks, you are right"? I'm repeating myself, but i
think it actually does something. You can be right in this case, because
as I said before, no matter what explanation you provide, people will
quote or write the mass relays explosion problem. But do you think this
is a right solution? To say: "search for answer yourself"?

As apposed to following the flock?

You dont have to side with anyones opinion other than your own.

[Astarmos]

Deltateam Elcor wrote...

Astarmos wrote...

Peer of the Empire wrote...

Rocktel wrote...
They saw a couple things in the walls. They didn't suddenly think they were doing something else. That's not how indoctrination works.

In all cases of indoctrination the victim wants to help the Reapers. Shepard didn't. Therefore his is not indoctrinated.

If we look at it as a meta game, Shephard indeed was considering helping the Reapers, and many players no doubt chose an ending that did help the Reapers.  Synthesis is simply Reaperization; Control ending is straight up indoctrination.  These players were swayed from the path of destroying the Reapers by the words of a Reaper

Synthesis ending isn't "reaperization. It is completely different then husks, indoctrination and so on. You do not modify existing life like normally reapers do - you are changing DNA itself and Joker and EDI seems like they are the same people. Also plants are changed(because of DNA change).

Thats not really what its about, the whole idea around this problem of "Chaos" apparently being the reason for the reapers, choosing to combine synthetic life and Organic life, is simply saying adding order to chaos, you literally do their job for them, its like harbinger just slaps shepard i the face and says "You have spent 3 years trying to stop us, ultimately you have joined us".

It wouldnt stop them from making true synthetics either, which makes it pointless in a way.

If reapers wanted to do this, then they would probably do it. It doesn't mean it is a complete order. As I said, Joker seems the same person and EDI also. They are not like synthetics. I would say, that synthesis was the solution provided by crucible along with the others. If it is provided by crucible, then why should we think it is wrong? You said that reapers wants this? When the Catalyst realizes that it's wrong, it doesn't want to find the solution because it can't. Besides husks and indoctrinated ones were controlled. Joker doesn't seem that way

[Croakamancer]

My main thought is the disconnect.

There is one, count them, one comment after Harby's beam that reffs what just happened on Earth, the loss of most of the attack force, and that's from Hacket 'None of them made it through' Everything else is just focused on the immediate. There are three people who speak to Shep after that point, and all of them should've known what happened with the last attack. None of them are even slightly surprised at the commander still being alive

Also, second point, but one I haven't heard an answer for other than 'bad writing' or Indoc. How did the Illusive Man get there? Through the battlefield? Through everything? Alone?

[Smiley556]

Astarmos wrote...

Lol and you think that this is a right thing to say? You think that
normal people will search through over 400 pages were most of the posts
are like "ending sucks, you are right"? I'm repeating myself, but i
think it actually does something. You can be right in this case, because
as I said before, no matter what explanation you provide, people will
quote or write the mass relays explosion problem. But do you think this
is a right solution? To say: "search for answer yourself"?

I'm sorry is it really so wierd for me to point you to a thread with the answers to your questions in the first post instead of going out of my way to answer your questions everytime you repeat them? If you value my opinion you could atleast show it by doing a bit of research for yourself before presenting your questions. For christ sake the thread I pointed to has all the answers you are looking for so far in the first post. Try reading atleast that before saying you cant be bothered going through all 400 pages.

Modifié par Smiley556, 14 mars 2012 - 09:34 .

[Baelyn]

Astarmos wrote...

Deltateam Elcor wrote...

Astarmos wrote...

Peer of the Empire wrote...

Rocktel wrote...
They saw a couple things in the walls. They didn't suddenly think they were doing something else. That's not how indoctrination works.

In all cases of indoctrination the victim wants to help the Reapers. Shepard didn't. Therefore his is not indoctrinated.

If we look at it as a meta game, Shephard indeed was considering helping the Reapers, and many players no doubt chose an ending that did help the Reapers.  Synthesis is simply Reaperization; Control ending is straight up indoctrination.  These players were swayed from the path of destroying the Reapers by the words of a Reaper

Synthesis ending isn't "reaperization. It is completely different then husks, indoctrination and so on. You do not modify existing life like normally reapers do - you are changing DNA itself and Joker and EDI seems like they are the same people. Also plants are changed(because of DNA change).

Thats not really what its about, the whole idea around this problem of "Chaos" apparently being the reason for the reapers, choosing to combine synthetic life and Organic life, is simply saying adding order to chaos, you literally do their job for them, its like harbinger just slaps shepard i the face and says "You have spent 3 years trying to stop us, ultimately you have joined us".

It wouldnt stop them from making true synthetics either, which makes it pointless in a way.

If reapers wanted to do this, then they would probably do it. It doesn't mean it is a complete order. As I said, Joker seems the same person and EDI also. They are not like synthetics. I would say, that synthesis was the solution provided by crucible along with the others. If it is provided by crucible, then why should we think it is wrong? You said that reapers wants this? When the Catalyst realizes that it's wrong, it doesn't want to find the solution because it can't. Besides husks and indoctrinated ones were controlled. Joker doesn't seem that way

If you would take the time and read the thread that Smiley and others have linked you multiple times, you would know that the "ending" you see with Joker and EDI during the synthetic ending IS NOT REAL (nor are any of the "Normandy crash scenes" in any of the endings, the @masseffect twitter even hinted that we should be wary of this scene as people who we know have died show up in this scene). That is Shepard (either indoctrination or hallucinating) imagining what happens as he thinks he is sacrificing himself. In this ending he is truly deceived into believing that synthesis will turn out this way although it is far from the happy ending that Harbinger has made him think it will be.

[Astarmos]

Croakamancer wrote...

My main thought is the disconnect.

There is one, count them, one comment after Harby's beam that reffs what just happened on Earth, the loss of most of the attack force, and that's from Hacket 'None of them made it through' Everything else is just focused on the immediate. There are three people who speak to Shep after that point, and all of them should've known what happened with the last attack. None of them are even slightly surprised at the commander still being alive

Also, second point, but one I haven't heard an answer for other than 'bad writing' or Indoc. How did the Illusive Man get there? Through the battlefield? Through everything? Alone?

--How did cerberus get to the citadel? Through everything? Where was the security of the citadel?--
TIM is a servant of the reapers. It pretty much says why he is left alive

[Baelyn]

Croakamancer wrote...

My main thought is the disconnect.

There is one, count them, one comment after Harby's beam that reffs what just happened on Earth, the loss of most of the attack force, and that's from Hacket 'None of them made it through' Everything else is just focused on the immediate. There are three people who speak to Shep after that point, and all of them should've known what happened with the last attack. None of them are even slightly surprised at the commander still being alive

Also, second point, but one I haven't heard an answer for other than 'bad writing' or Indoc. How did the Illusive Man get there? Through the battlefield? Through everything? Alone?

Good point. Not to mention that the first thing we hear from Hackett after entering the citadel beam is "Shepard nothing is happening!"

How does he even know that Shepard is there and doing anything? Neither him nor Anderson have any contact with the outside world before this. As far as Hackett knows, Shepard and Anderson died with all the rest in the beam as is confirmed by the radio chatter.

EDIT: Just realized that the citadel wings open. I am guessing that would explain Hackett assuming it was Shepard who did it. 

EDIT 2: But in that case why wasn't Hackett trying to communicate before all this? Anderson and Shepard were obviously able to communicate via comm link. Still smells fishy.

Modifié par Baelyn, 14 mars 2012 - 09:42 .

[Smiley556]

Baelyn wrote...

If you would take the time and read the thread that Smiley and others have linked you multiple times, you would know that the "ending" you see with Joker and EDI during the synthetic ending IS NOT REAL (nor are any of the "Normandy crash scenes" in any of the endings, the @masseffect twitter even hinted that we should be wary of this scene as people who we know have died show up in this scene). That is Shepard (either indoctrination or hallucinating) imagining what happens as he thinks he is sacrificing himself. In this ending he is truly deceived into believing that synthesis will turn out this way although it is far from the happy ending that Harbinger has made him think it will be.

You are being counterproductive. If you keep repeating the answers from that thread for him here he is never going to read it <_<

[MustacheManatee]

http://social.biowar...5/index/9897684

Evidence!

[Astarmos]

MustacheManatee :
-Upon awakening after Harbingers beam hits, everything is out of focus and Shepards head is ringing(this is actually important as I will point out later). Everything moves in slow motion and nobody is around. The movement is similar to your dream sequences. It is my theory that the dream sequences are evidence of the ongoing battle in Shepards mind to fight off the indoctrination that was initiated by the beacon in the first MAss Effect.
-During this sequence, you walk towards the beam with a pistol that has UNLIMITED ammo. Also aiming at husks that attack is very slow and diffucult. Ever tried to aim or throw something in a stressful dream? It feels just like this! It also feels as if you are floating, and you can not move the camera down to see your feet.
- Upon entering the Citadel, Anderson contacts you, saying that he followed you to the Citadel, even though there was NO ONE AROUND. Very suspicious. Shepard mentions that it doesn't look like the Citadel, and Anderson confirms that it looks like Shepards description of the Collector base. This is also an important piece of evidence.

You are almost dead. I don't know if you were ever drunk, but getting hit hard (really hard) results in disorientation and you really don't know what is happening. It is natural to make ammo infinite because it isn't just a gameplay. It is part of a scene - the final scene. Anderson could just enter the beam without you - he didn't have time to just stand by your body and think "o well, are you alright?" and meanwhile harbinger says "oh he is propably dead, oh well" and they have a happy converastion about the reapers and so on. Shepard doesn't know every single corridor of the citadel. You think that this kind of control room would be on the center of a hall? Catalyst resides in the Citadel. It is not citadel itself so the "citadel control unit" doesn't have to be the same interface

[Croakamancer]

@Astarmos; he still thinks otherwise, and doesn't believe he's won yet. He'd have to be able to stroll through an entire army of Husks to pull that off.

Also, why are the Reapers still keeping him around? He's known to be indoctrinated, and his resources are now gone. They have no use for him, bar basic Husk. If they wanted someone to meddle with Sheppard, wouldn't a more physically able opponent make sense?

@Baelyn *nods* There's not even an 'is that you'? before Hackett makes his request (which makes no sense if Anderson followed; there were multiple teams.

Also, personal point. The scene before. Not only does it highlight the theme of indoctrination, control and self awareness of said control (something that wasn't really explored in ME2, though was important in ME1) it also serves another important function

A goodbye to Anderson and the Illusive Man.

TIM can't really appear in the plot without bringing up holes now, but having one of the game's major antagonists make an off screen exit feels like a cop out. So the Reapers repurposed his image, his voice and beliefs, for this vision. Perhaps there was some reality to it; the two of you both in the same mental game with the Reapers looking on. Or perhaps it was all symbolisim.

My main thought goes to Anderson. What if he died from that beam? You got to hear him say something before the end, even if it wasn't really him. Do the words of a delusion feel right? Are they enough of a way to close a relationship? I don't know, but that sounds like the sort of question Biowere might ask us.

[MustacheManatee]

@Astarmos
Anderson specifically says he entered AFTER Shepard.
Also the 1st room looks like the collector base.
The second room looks like the Shadow Broker base.
The third room looks like TIMs office.
Seems logical, under the indoctrination theory, to assume this is a manifestation of Shepards mind. Like what happens in a dream where one location can actually be made up of many places you have been before.

[BlaiidDrwg]

Hmm.. I like the theory and I kinda of hope it is true and there is something released that finishes it off. I would applaud that. But.. I have a question then.

What actually happens at the end?
is it: low EMS: Sheppard dies in the rubble and presumably the Reapers win.
high EMS: Sheppard survives in the rubble becuase the unified fleet wins out without him?

I would give the alternative theory- "just bad writing" -some credit for the following reasons:
1) they spend a lot of time putting such detail into the three parts of your armada (crucible, ground, space) and then they never really have any effect during final scenes.
2) there was no real final battle. Just a very intense horde modem at the missiles.
3) unresolved plot holes introduced - would be OK and fit with indoctrination theory, but then something else would be needed.
4) there are enough bugs and shortcuts in the game (in ANY game, this one was pretty good I'll say) that the 1M1 bit at the citadel is just as likely an artist shortcut.

So my alternate theory is, they ran out of time. They delayed it once and didn't think they could delay it again, so they had to hurry up and finish an ending. Clearly the most important part and the thing they would be wrestling with the longest, but they ran out of time. So they had to cut some of the more work intensive bits out of the end including full treatment of your gathered armada, the real final battle with Harbinger, the more involved and multidirectional battle against Sheppard's indoctrination. Whether or not they intended this to be an indoctrination ending, I think the rush is still apparent.

Maybe there is a fix in the offing... the last screen advertising further DLC (which was horrendously crass btw) perhaps suggests this. I dunno. I'm not returning my game copy or swearing off BW/EA or anything.

[MustacheManatee]

@ BlaiidDrwg

http://social.biowar...5/index/9897684

Thoughts?

[hex23]

The main problem with using the Prothean VI to disprove the indoctrination theory is....well....most people aren't saying Shepard was indoctrinated then. That addition to the theory popped up much, much later.

The "streamlined" version of indoctrination theory is: the last 5-10ish minutes of the game is all in Shepard's head while he struggles against an indoctrination attempt....the Control/Synthesis option is siding with the Reapers, Destroy is telling the Reapers to go to hell. It also explains why Anderson and The Illusive Man magically appear out of thin air....they represent opposite sides of the internal debate.

This also perfectly explains why you wake up in rubble, on Earth. And before someone asks "why wouldn't Harbinger just kill Shepard?"....why would he? In the second game he talked nonstop about wanting to possess your mind and body.

Lastly, people keep citing Occam's Razor, which is ironic considering Indoctrination theory is a much, much simpler explanation than the alternative. Which is the last 10ish minutes should be taken literally.

[MustacheManatee]

What Hex23 said.

[Malakar1]

I guess some people just want a reason to bash Bioware and the writers. Just to believe they screwed up because they are angry. I mean really? The game was finished 3 months before release. There is no way they just left the ending with so many plot hole. Indoctrination should be the main theory for everyone, everything is pointing to it. But people decided to focus on the "flaws" of the ending. Or just got angry because of a kid. They'll say anything to just keep bashing.

Anyway, everyone will believe whatever the hell they want. Arguing about it is just pointless

[MustacheManatee]

It's easy to hold onto anger because it can give you a voice, and empower you. It has an intoxicating effect, and once you've committed yourself to one side of an opinion it is human nature to defend it. Even in the face of logic and reason.

[Naarad]

Lastly, people keep citing Occam's Razor, which is ironic considering Indoctrination theory is a much, much simpler explanation than the alternative. Which is the last 10ish minutes should be taken literally.

The much simpler explanation is that the ending introduces way too many new concepts with too little context, hence becoming a bad ending.

[Guglio08]

Occam's Razor: Shepard's pistol had infinite ammo when five seconds earlier it needed thermal clips.

It's a dream / hallucination / indoctrination.

[Naarad]

It's called gameplay design. Because it's a videogame, not real life.

[Guglio08]

That's a strawman argument.

You only use the pistol to take down the three husks and the one Marauder, and then in the Destroy option (where he fires an awful lot of bullets). But sure, challenge accepted.

How did Anderson get to the control panel if the way Shepard gets there seems to be the only path? Or that the beam just happened to get him to an exit-less corridor that led to the panel? Where did The Illusive Man come from? Where did the elevator take Shepard to?

It's obviously a metatextual sequence. It would be against Occam's Razor to assume it wasn't.

[Shunt Mcblunt]

Because even after the crash when EVA tried to attack you You had rounds but all after being hit by the Beam you had unlimited Clips. You would think that all your Thermal Clips would be spent but Unlimited ammo. Sorry it was Dream time. Isn't Ignorance Bliss!

PS: Quit Trolling - We have our views and you have yours lets keep it like that.

Modifié par Shunt Mcblunt, 15 mars 2012 - 09:30 .

[111987]

If the theory is true, what does that mean for the people whom chose synthesis or control? Does it mean that the ending DLC just wouldn't be available for them?

Also, why would Shepard envision the whole Normandy scene?

I have to say, there are a lot of good points about the Indoctrination theory, but something about it doesn't feel quite right yet.