885 réponses à ce sujet

[doubledeviant]

I don't understand Morrigan, and I don't understand the developer rationale for the limited fashion in which the player can interact with Morrigan.

For example (one of many instances that I could cite):

I agreed to aid Bann Teagan because:

a) He expresses support for the Grey Wardens and opposition to Loghain. = Natural Ally
If saved, Redcliffe could provide soldiers and supplies to the army. = Valuable Resources

Morrigan complains and disapproves (-5).  She'd rather I let Redcliffe perish (losing allies and resources) and assumes that I've acted out of compassion or some other motivation of which she doesn't approve.  There is no option to persuade her that my motivations are anything other than altruistic.  In contrast, Leliana can often be persuaded to accept dubious acts for the sake of the "greater good".

This seems to me to be bad writing (unless she's a Darkspawn in disguise... She does have yellow eyes... but that would so obvious as to be poor writing nonetheless).  Given the goal (raise an army to stop the Blight), what does Morrigan expect me to do?  Is she Chaotic Stupid?  Hell-bent on being Evil with a capital E without regard to what is reasonable and advantageous?

Share your thoughts, but:  I've completed about 3/4 of the game, so no endgame spoilers please!

[Herr Uhl]

Yes, this instance is bad writing. If you could sneak into the castle whilst the zombies attack, then it would make sense.

[The Capital Gaultier]

The villagers are not a part of your mission as a Grey Warden. Just as Lothering was not important to the local bann, Morrigan feels that Redcliffe Village is not important to the war effort. And she is technically correct, though the information you get at the time is pretty muddy. Natural reaction in my book.



That's my take.

[Cammy2709]

doubledeviant wrote...

Share your thoughts, but:  I've completed about 3/4 of the game, so no endgame spoilers please!

Initially Morrigan does appear to be a total nutjob with no regard for anything. You need to finish that final quarter though. It will make sense.

[The Angry One]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The villagers are not a part of your mission as a Grey Warden. Just as Lothering was not important to the local bann, Morrigan feels that Redcliffe Village is not important to the war effort. And she is technically correct, though the information you get at the time is pretty muddy. Natural reaction in my book.

That's my take.

Redcliffe village is right outside the castle, it could be a source of extra bodies and morale to the war effort.
Even if not, Teagan is still someone worth having on side for various reasons, and there's no immediate way into the castle. Morrigan is just being an idiot.

[The Angry One]

Cammy2709 wrote...

doubledeviant wrote...

Share your thoughts, but:  I've completed about 3/4 of the game, so no endgame spoilers please!

Initially Morrigan does appear to be a total nutjob with no regard for anything. You need to finish that final quarter though. It will make sense.

Nothing that happens later on explains Morrigan's rank stupidity in strategic matters.
If she doesn't know then she should keep her damn mouth shut.

[The Capital Gaultier]

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The villagers are not a part of your mission as a Grey Warden. Just as Lothering was not important to the local bann, Morrigan feels that Redcliffe Village is not important to the war effort. And she is technically correct, though the information you get at the time is pretty muddy. Natural reaction in my book.

That's my take.

Redcliffe village is right outside the castle, it could be a source of extra bodies and morale to the war effort.
Even if not, Teagan is still someone worth having on side for various reasons, and there's no immediate way into the castle. Morrigan is just being an idiot.

I'd disagree with that.  It's a small village.  Most of the people in Ferelden are rural.  You'll draw people from the village, sure, but it won't be a sizable portion of the army.  The real deal is with the person in control of the armies, and he's in the castle.  The fact that there's no immediate way into the castle is also not apparent at the time.  Morrigan is the one who believes in the direct route.

[Recidiva]

She's a strategic selfish moron. Truth.

No sense of hearts and minds unless they're ripped out and on an altar, or controlled by her.

[Alex Savchovsky]

doubledeviant wrote...

I don't understand Morrigan, and I don't understand the developer rationale for the limited fashion in which the player can interact with Morrigan.

For example (one of many instances that I could cite):

I agreed to aid Bann Teagan because:

a) He expresses support for the Grey Wardens and opposition to Loghain. = Natural Ally
If saved, Redcliffe could provide soldiers and supplies to the army. = Valuable Resources

As I explained in another topic - you're risking the lives of the last two Gray Wardens to save a handful of villagers. So, let's say the help of the Wardens makes a difference and the battle is won, but they both fall - which is a possible scenario for all that we know. What happens? The mentioned villagers get to live some months more, but after that all the Ferelden is devastated by the horde of darkspawn, since there are no more Wardens here and Alister already told you that foreign Wardens will come eventually, but it would be too late to save the country. Nice choice, really. If it was not a video game, would you take that risk? Do you think you have the right to risk THAT much?

P.S. Morrigan is Chaotic Neutral.

Modifié par Alex Savchovsky, 28 novembre 2009 - 12:09 .

[Herr Uhl]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
I'd disagree with that.  It's a small village.  Most of the people in Ferelden are rural.  You'll draw people from the village, sure, but it won't be a sizable portion of the army.  The real deal is with the person in control of the armies, and he's in the castle.  The fact that there's no immediate way into the castle is also not apparent at the time.  Morrigan is the one who believes in the direct route.

But if you walk up to the castle, you cannot find any way in. HOW is that going to change by letting zombies kill villagers. The villagers are the ones that could have any useful knowledge about gaining access to the castle.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
I'd disagree with that.  It's a small village.  Most of the people in Ferelden are rural.  You'll draw people from the village, sure, but it won't be a sizable portion of the army.  The real deal is with the person in control of the armies, and he's in the castle.  The fact that there's no immediate way into the castle is also not apparent at the time.  Morrigan is the one who believes in the direct route.

But if you walk up to the castle, you cannot find any way in. HOW is that going to change by letting zombies kill villagers. The villagers are the ones that could have any useful knowledge about gaining access to the castle.

You can't walk up to the castle before this conversation occurs.

[The Angry One]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

I'd disagree with that.  It's a small village.  Most of the people in Ferelden are rural.  You'll draw people from the village, sure, but it won't be a sizable portion of the army.

And yet a sizable militia already exists in the village, a village that lies on the direct path to the castle.

The real deal is with the person in control of the armies, and he's in the castle. 

Who's a) mortally ill and in a castle occupied by undead fiends. He could very well be dead. So Morrigan's plan is to throw his successor to the wolves. Brilliant plan there genius! Too bad Maric didn't have Morrigan around back in the day!

The fact that there's no immediate way into the castle is also not apparent at the time.  Morrigan is the one who believes in the direct route.

If the castle is occupied by hostile forces, then logically the direct route would be blocked.
And hey surprise, it was.

[Cammy2709]

The Angry One wrote...

Cammy2709 wrote...

doubledeviant wrote...

Share your thoughts, but:  I've completed about 3/4 of the game, so no endgame spoilers please!

Initially Morrigan does appear to be a total nutjob with no regard for anything. You need to finish that final quarter though. It will make sense.

Nothing that happens later on explains Morrigan's rank stupidity in strategic matters.
If she doesn't know then she should keep her damn mouth shut.

No, no, I just meant her enitre morality in the first place. It's hard to put across my point without revealing too much here. But her being completely devoid of battle tact and subtlety is made fairly obvious. Let's just say she's in a rush.

[The Angry One]

Her morality shouldn't preclude helping people when it's convenient.

If she doesn't have the capacity to think beyond "EW! I am helping people." to "Hm, doing this now will help ME later" then she's an idiot, plain and simple.

[The Capital Gaultier]

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

I'd disagree with that.  It's a small village.  Most of the people in Ferelden are rural.  You'll draw people from the village, sure, but it won't be a sizable portion of the army.

And yet a sizable militia already exists in the village, a village that lies on the direct path to the castle.

The real deal is with the person in control of the armies, and he's in the castle. 

Who's a) mortally ill and in a castle occupied by undead fiends. He could very well be dead. So Morrigan's plan is to throw his successor to the wolves. Brilliant plan there genius! Too bad Maric didn't have Morrigan around back in the day!

The fact that there's no immediate way into the castle is also not apparent at the time.  Morrigan is the one who believes in the direct route.

If the castle is occupied by hostile forces, then logically the direct route would be blocked.
And hey surprise, it was.

The militia is not a sizable force by any measure.

The sickness that plagues Eamon is a total mystery.  Better to waste time figuring that out than fighting off undead.

And again, you have no clue about whether or not the castle is blocked off at this point of conversation.  Future information cannot be used in present discussions.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 28 novembre 2009 - 12:18 .

[Recidiva]

As I explained in another topic - you're risking the lives of the last two Gray Wardens to save a handful of villagers. So, let's say the help of the Wardens makes a difference and the battle is won, but they both fall - which is a possible scenario for all that we know. What happens? The mentioned villagers get to live some months more, but after that all the Ferelden is devastated by the horde of darkspawn, since there are no more Wardens here and Alister already told you that foreign Wardens will come eventually, but it would be too late to save the country. Nice choice, really. If it was not a video game, would you take that risk? Do you think you have the right to risk THAT much?

P.S. Morrigan is Chaotic Neutral.

She's not chaotic and she's not neutral.  She prefers order (at least in her unmentionables) and she will never side with anybody other than herself and her goals.  She doesn't approve of almost any action that advances the story in any way that directly aids another human being other than her or her sense of personal power.  That doesn't make her neutral, that just makes her pathologically narcissistic and unable to see "the big picture."  She doesn't even have a pragmatic sense of cooperation or "winning support", which is what the Grey Wardens need desperately.  Support from Arl Eamon, support from the allies, support at the Landsmeet.  IF she could grasp that it was in her interests to gain that support so we don't end up smears on the side of the road, I'd appreciate it. 

Strategically it's understandable, it's just not wise in any way as far as being able to deal with other human beings, which is consistent with Flemeth raising her to be that way and being unable to help her acclimate to society.  For all her talk about being so intelligent, she really is just entirely selfish and inflexible.

Modifié par Recidiva, 28 novembre 2009 - 12:18 .

[The Angry One]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The militia is not a sizable force by any measure.

In game terms it is.

The sickness that plagues Eamon is a total mystery.  Better to waste time figuring that out than fighting off undead.

Because the two can't possibly be connected?

And again, you have no clue about whether or not the castle is blocked off at this point of conversation.  Future information cannot be used in present discussions.

It's called logic. If a castle is under hostile occupation, why would it be open? It's a castle. They're sort of designed to keep people out.

[The Angry One]

Recidiva wrote...

Strategically it's understandable, it's just not wise in any way as far as being able to deal with other human beings, which is consistent with Flemeth raising her to be that way and being unable to help her acclimate to society.  For all her talk about being so intelligent, she really is just entirely selfish and inflexible.

Flemeth taught her all she knew, but never taught her how to be two-faced and use people's gratitude for her own interests?
Really? Flemeth? Of all people?

[The Capital Gaultier]

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The militia is not a sizable force by any measure.

In game terms it is.

The sickness that plagues Eamon is a total mystery.  Better to waste time figuring that out than fighting off undead.

Because the two can't possibly be connected?

And again, you have no clue about whether or not the castle is blocked off at this point of conversation.  Future information cannot be used in present discussions.

It's called logic. If a castle is under hostile occupation, why would it be open? It's a castle. They're sort of designed to keep people out.

The game terms deal with small squad combat.  In the war effort, those 12 militiamen are inconsequential.

And again, you can't use future information in current conversations.  The idea of the two being connected sounds ridiculous, especially since Eamon was sick before Redcliffe had any undead problems.

No one says that the castle is occupied by a hostile force.  They say that monsters come from it.

[tmp7704]

The Angry One wrote...

Redcliffe village is right outside the castle, it could be a source of extra bodies and morale to the war effort.
Even if not, Teagan is still someone worth having on side for various reasons, and there's no immediate way into the castle. Morrigan is just being an idiot.

I'd rather say the one who is an idiot in all this is Teagan -- since he knows a way into the castle but hides it from you, thus preventing you from striking at the heart of the issue right from the start.

As far as your character and Morrigan knows, the castle is a lost cause with the arl inside most likely dead and the place overrun by zombies and you have no way inside to check. There's no reason to hang there at all, as much as it may suck for the remaining peasants. A reasonable decision is not to waste time but to move on and try to secure the other allies.

[Herr Uhl]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

You can't walk up to the castle before this conversation occurs.

But you can agree that it is at least bad writing. Isn't there a "we'll see, maybe" option though?

If Eamon weren't necessary, you could see why she thinks that Redcliffe is a lost cause.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

You can't walk up to the castle before this conversation occurs.

But you can agree that it is at least bad writing. Isn't there a "we'll see, maybe" option though?

If Eamon weren't necessary, you could see why she thinks that Redcliffe is a lost cause.

I agree with that.  However, there is nothing unnatural about her reaction to your agreeing to help.  That's my only point.

[tmp7704]

The Angry One wrote...

Her morality shouldn't preclude helping people when it's convenient.

She seems to be generally believe people who need help are too weak to be of any use, and hence not worth helping. Consider her comments in the mage tower.

[Recidiva]

Flemeth taught her all she knew, but never taught her how to be two-faced and use people's gratitude for her own interests?
Really? Flemeth? Of all people?

Right.  She talks a good game about being manipulative when necessary.  Like batting her eyelashes at the Captain of the Guard to save herself from the Chasind who was going to accuse her of being a witch.
But she can't compromise her "principles" in order to appear conciliatory for a very practical purpose?  REALLY?
You don't have to actually care, dammit, just look like you do for five freakin' minutes until the ink on the treaty dries, idiot.

[tmp7704]

Herr Uhl wrote...

If Eamon weren't necessary, you could see why she thinks that Redcliffe is a lost cause.

For all the characters know he isn't necessary. He would make a convenient ally but that's it. The Wardens don't even have a treaty with him, he's just an extra idea that Alistair comes up with.