885 réponses à ce sujet

[Nosuchluck]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Nosuchluck wrote...

You can just walk in and demand a duel from Loghan it would seem. I don't understand why I can't just conscript him to the Grey Warden's the first time I see him, it can't be refused and if he did he'd lose all his support.

/facepalm

Seriously though, why couldn't you just march in and conscript him? As a grey warden you have the right.

[mrao]

First, it'll only take a day to save the village. 

Most of the villagers are poorly equiped and under the impression that it is an unwinnable battle. I'm not saying there is no reason to save it, I'm saying that characters have good reason, when taking into account their personalities, to say that such a defense would be futile. They don't know that you have to save the arl to win the game, or that there is no real time limit for getting stuff done.

[Akka le Vil]

cglasgow wrote...

There's also that Morrigan starts [...] never remotely learned how.

Quite true.
Which means she should jusfity her inflated ego and pretentiousness by actually getting aware of her ignorance and try to rectify it rather than bossing around and making snarky comment and disapproving actions that she doesn't have any idea about.

Alistair, for all her "he's dumber than the dog" mockeries, is still smarter than her in that he is aware of his limitations

[Matthew Young CT]

Akka le Vil wrote...
Yes I need to take on Loghain.

Yes sorry, I meant take on Loghain via that route is what you don't have to do. I mean, obviously the game forces you to take that route, but from Morrigan's point of view it's a stupid one to take. Which I'd agree with. Sick Arl who can't be cured in a castle overrun by zombies? Yeah, let's work on a plan that'll actually succeed.

One could take issue with the fact that Morrigan disapproves of you doing something that the game forces you to do. I would say though that this is a gameplay or general writing (they should give a better reason to be trying to help Eamon) flaw, not a flaw in Morrigan's character.

[Herr Uhl]

Nosuchluck wrote...

Akka le Vil wrote...

Nosuchluck wrote...

You can just walk in and demand a duel from Loghan it would seem. I don't understand why I can't just conscript him to the Grey Warden's the first time I see him, it can't be refused and if he did he'd lose all his support.

/facepalm

Seriously though, why couldn't you just march in and conscript him? As a grey warden you have the right.

Grey wardens are outlaws. Loghain made that rule.

[cglasgow]

Technically, you don't. The Right of Conscription is a legal right granted to the Grey Wardens by the various kingdoms. This means that the local king can legally turn it off whenever he feels like.
Remember, the Grey Wardens once got entirely thrown out of Ferelden by the crown, and had only two choices: like it and lump it.
So, attempting to use the Right of Conscription vs. the Lord Regent would result only in a 'No.'
There's also that until you can get the Landsmeet to agree that Loghain is full of crap, Grey Wardens in Ferelden all have the legal status of 'fugitives and traitors', which means your only rights under the law are 'You have the right to bleed. You have the right to an unmarked burial in a muddy ditch. Should we feel too lazy to go find a ditch, you have the right to decompose in the middle of the road...'

Modifié par cglasgow, 28 novembre 2009 - 03:08 .

[Akka le Vil]

Nosuchluck wrote...

Seriously though, why couldn't you just march in and conscript him? As a grey warden you have the right.

...
I am... at a loss to what answer.
Are you REALLY that naive and simplistic ?

[tmp7704]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Yes I need to take on Loghain. I absolutely need the whole Ferelden's military power in addition to the three other armies I may bring, and on top of that remember that Grey Warden are wanted by his government and he killed them with half the army already, so taking on darkspawns with his own army in my back would be a bad, bad move.

You really didn't bother to read the actual in-game story, I see.

Actually, reading the in-game story it really didn't feel like i absolutely had to take on Loghain, at that point. He seemed more like a red herring dangled as "alternate route that alas you cannot take because he's just too well guarded".

The Ferelden army took very heavy losses during the Ostagar battle and Loghain was bleeding it even further in his fights with the banns. I really didn't see much evidence at that point it's worth to throw my own forces into the fight against him for the total control -- because it was likely the losses i'd suffer would be in the end greater than the numbers i could gain through such approach.

It really felt sensible to just stay away from that guy if possible and focus on tracking down the archdemon.

[Nosuchluck]

The Grey wardens being seen as fugitives and traitors doesn't come through atall in the game. You practically are given the impression that everyone disagrees with it and thinks it's a lie. The only people who actually do anything about you being marked as a traitor is - One knight in a street corner, a few assasins and Loghain.

[Gilded Age]

Recidiva wrote...

To me, as a player, they're hilarious.

To my character, as the leader of the Grey Wardens, they're a nuisance and counterproductive to my strategy.

I think this quote best sums up Morrigan's character.  Even if you're playing a calculating "evil-ish" character, her lack of foresight and her very tenuous grasp of political strategy is tedious to endure, at best.  Although, I don't think it's bad writing.  Personally, I got the impression that while Morrigan thinks of herself as worldly, sophisticated and very intelligent - she's not any of those things.  Her actions (and her dialogues) show her to be, instead, shallow, rigidly selfish, provinicial and completely out of her depth when it comes to dealing with the problem of the Blight.  I remember laughing at her during my first play-through when, in Lothering, her idea of strategy was to go to Denerim and kill Loghain.  And I think this split, between what Morrigan thinks she is and what she really is, is intentional. 

I like the idea of her character, but she can be very annoying to play with.  I'd love tell her to take a hike but for the role she plays in the end game. 

[Akka le Vil]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

One could take issue with the fact that Morrigan disapproves of you doing something that the game forces you to do. I would say though that this is a gameplay or general writing (they should give a better reason to be trying to help Eamon) flaw, not a flaw in Morrigan's character.

The flaw in the writing is requiring the player to make the leap of faith "the Arl must still be alive" when all you can see is a castle filled with undead.
The rest is rather consistent. Loghain isn't really reachable by anything short of political power, and the Arl seems to be the only one able to stand against him.

[Herr Uhl]

Nosuchluck wrote...

The Grey wardens being seen as fugitives and traitors doesn't come through atall in the game. You practically are given the impression that everyone disagrees with it and thinks it's a lie. The only people who actually do anything about you being marked as a traitor is - One knight in a street corner, a few assasins and Loghain.

Why would that make Loghain go: Oh, he waves a piece of paper, I must obey!

[doubledeviant]

Vormaerin wrote...
Again... the OP's position is that Morrigan is actively stupid for being annoyed at this decision.  No one is saying there is no reason to defend the village.   We are saying there are solid, rational reasons to think its better not to.   As Morrigan does.  

My position (me being the OP in question) is that Morrigan nearly ALWAYS disapproves whenever I try to court support against the Blight or commit any "good" deed for ulterior motives.  Also, she does so with little or no explanation and assumes that my motivations are altruistic/etc (and hates me for it).

My primary complaint is the lack of the ability to reason with her.

[dkwroot]

I noticed several of the same problems with Morrigan, she's sometimes wacky in her logic. I was helping people in my game for the sake of gaining their support against Loghain and Morrigan kept getting angry about it. I suppose Morrigan would have preferred that I demand aid and if they can't supply it immediately, I just move on to the next contract. If I did that, I wouldn't have gained any allies!



Then again, Morrigan admitted that she isn't good at make friends (and allies, evidently).

[mrao]

the fact that Morrigan starts out the game a seriously damn ignorant Chasind barbarian. This is part of why her strategic judgement is so inconsistent... its entirely consistent, really, its just entirely wrong. Morrigan might be a genius mage, but get someone else to do your political and logistical planning, she's just not any good at it, because she's never remotely learned how.

Excellant post that illustrates Morrigan's character better than I've seen so far. She is a character that is out of place in the extreme, honestly after telling me that she has lived in a swamp her whole life, I expected her to be naive about such matters. Morrigan is short sighted and emotionally stunted because she was raised to be as such.

[Akka le Vil]

tmp7704 wrote...

Actually, reading the in-game story it really didn't feel like i absolutely had to take on Loghain, at that point. He seemed more like a red herring dangled as "alternate route that alas you cannot take because he's just too well guarded".

The Ferelden army took very heavy losses during the Ostagar battle and Loghain was bleeding it even further in his fights with the banns. I really didn't see much evidence at that point it's worth to throw my own forces into the fight against him for the total control -- because it was likely the losses i'd suffer would be in the end greater than the numbers i could gain through such approach.

It really felt sensible to just stay away from that guy if possible and focus on tracking down the archdemon.

Well, when I said "taking Loghain on", I meant "getting rid of him", not "waging war against him". First because, yes,  waging war against the army I need to recruit is pretty much counter-productive, but I didn't even consider it because the armies I'm recruiting are for GREY WARDEN business (ie : fighting the Blight) and certainly not to make political war.

So sure it feels sensible to avoid military confrontation with Loghain - which makes getting the Arl even more important, as he's the only known source of political power you can have that would allow you to challenge Loghain.

[cglasgow]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Which means she should justify her inflated ego and pretentiousness by actually getting aware of her ignorance and try to rectify it rather than bossing around and making snarky comment and disapproving actions that she doesn't have any idea about.

Yes, but we're talking about someone raised by Flemeth, aka the entity so monstrously evil that it actually makes the archdemon look morally ambiguous.  *g*

More seriously, can you imagine Morrigan ever admitting weakness?  And to her, ignorance is a weakness.  Flemeth has taught her her entire life that any show of weakness will be immediately followed up by humiliation and pain.  Hence Morrigan's instant response to not knowing what the hell is going on is to put on a haughty sneer and try to bull**** her way through it.

I also note that Morrigan's ultimate purpose, in Flemeth's eyes, is to be a magically powerful vessel that she can then hollow out and take for herself.  The problem here is that if the vessel figures out what's going on, Flemeth undergoes serious inconvenience (note that this is exactly what happens in the game).  Since Flemeth can't use stupid vessels -- she needs them magically powerful and intelligent -- what's her only solution?

Make sure the vessels don't use their native intelligence diligently enough to spot and deduce the bread crumbs.  Which would mean deliberately warping their education so that they do not have the proper scientific response to not knowing what's going on (keeping mouth shut and eyes open), but instead try to bull on through on their preconceptions.  Morrigan only finds out about Flemeth's plans because of the lucky break of you having access to the Circle Tower and thus her old grimoire: left to her own devices, she would never have known.   Not because she's stupid, but because she's ignorant, and what's worse, deliberately raised to lack the necessary humility to admit one's ignorance and be self-motivated to improve one's education.

Modifié par cglasgow, 28 novembre 2009 - 03:18 .

[ReubenLiew]

Akka le Vil wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

There's also that Morrigan starts [...] never remotely learned how.

Quite true.
Which means she should jusfity her inflated ego and pretentiousness by actually getting aware of her ignorance and try to rectify it rather than bossing around and making snarky comment and disapproving actions that she doesn't have any idea about.

Alistair, for all her "he's dumber than the dog" mockeries, is still smarter than her in that he is aware of his limitations

Pride is a terrible mistress:devil:
I think that is what makes her a well written character. She's so full of her own distorted pride that she can't see past the veil she's put in front of her eyes, and she reflects this through her inconsistencies when you poke a hole through that veil with little gifts and such.
And Pride, of course, would never allow someone to ever admit they are wrong in their views, and reasoning with them would make her not like you, which is only natural, if the internet proves anything its this.
Whether this makes her stupid or somewhat I don't know. I call it naive and narrow-visioned, but then that is her character through and through. She doesn't understand the larger picture because she was never raised to SEE the larger picture, as she only focuses on a single-minded determination through a goal.

[Taerda]

Nosuchluck wrote...

The Grey wardens being seen as fugitives and traitors doesn't come through atall in the game. You practically are given the impression that everyone disagrees with it and thinks it's a lie. The only people who actually do anything about you being marked as a traitor is - One knight in a street corner, a few assasins and Loghain.

Loghain's men in the Lothering tavern actually believe you to be traitors. Indeed according to their dialougue they were at Osteruard and saw the Grey Wardens setting a trap for the King to die in and the only way out for Loghain was to retreat.

They and Ser Cwhateverhernameis.

[Recidiva]

Why would women and children be useful to a Grey Warden? Your job is to save the country, not a town.

There are a few motivations from the starting stories to become a Grey Warden:

Human Noble:  Revenge on Howe.
Dalish Elf:  Dying of the taint.
Dwarf Noble:  Revenge on Bhelen.
City Elf:  Fugitive of the law.  
Mage Circle:  Fugitive of the law.
Dwarf Commoner:  Fugitive of the law.

None of these characters set out to become grand tacticians for the Grey Wardens.  They just don't have much of a choice in the matter.  Nobody can go home.  They can either take revenge on who ruined their home or circumstances, or try to find justice for their families.  If they're truly out only for themselves, and are selfish ****s, you STILL lose the game because all of your group members will abandon you for being an ass at every turn. 

This is a bit like reality.

Bann Teagan cares about the village.  He's a Bann.  He has influence with Arl Eamon and wants him saved.  Saving Arl Eamon according to Bann Teagan's wishes gains you an ally.  Bann Teagan and Arl Eamon's knights are the only people happy to see Alistair and the only place so far where it's possible to be believed and start gaining support.

Not doing so gives Bann Teagan enough cause to want revenge on the Grey Wardens for turning him down when he needed them most.

It's not a choice of sentiment, it's an entirely valid strategic choice to begin with based on what the PC knows of the game so far.  You can tack sentiment onto it or do without.  The strategy remains.

[mrao]

doubledeviant wrote...



My primary complaint is the lack of the ability to reason with her.

I agree. I like Morrigan and I'm still annoyed at the lack of options to reason with her. I remember there being plenty of persuade options for Alistair, why can there not be the same for Morrigan?

IMO, this is the main reason why people will complain about the implementation of her character.

[Vormaerin]

Akka le Vil wrote...


Oh God yes she is.
Actually, what keeps me wondering about her being in fact a well-written (if unsufferable) character, is precisely because she's SO inconsistent that it becomes rather consistent in itself.


Actually, Eamon is necessary not because of Alistair specifically, but because he's said several time as the only noble having enough importance and support to challenge Loghain directly. So there IS some compelling in-world reasons to stick with him.

Sorry, I interpreted "inconsistent" as meaning "poorly written such that the character doesn't make sense".   I disagree that she is that.   I do agree that she doesn't always walk the talk, though I don't think its as bad as you seem to.

On Eamon, you are still missing the point.  No one is saying that staying to defend the village is stupid.   We are just saying that its not stupid to write the place off and try somewhere more promising, as Morrigan suggests.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Yes. Morrigan is Chaotic Stupid.

[tmp7704]

mrao wrote...

I agree. I like Morrigan and I'm still annoyed at the lack of options to reason with her. I remember there being plenty of persuade options for Alistair, why can there not be the same for Morrigan?

Because she's made a much more opinionated character, set in her beliefs. Alistair on the other hand doubts himself constantly and pretty much begs you to take the responsibility of making decisions out of his hands.

[Nosuchluck]

If I didn't help save the town Bann teagan would probably be dead so I don't have him as a problem. At this point in the game Eamon is almost definatly dead. The only reason to help the town is to be a good person. The game just limits you so it's the only real option.