885 réponses à ce sujet

[Taritu]

Wow, quite the little flame war.



Morrigan is evil, and stupid. Yes. She doesn't understand that helping people is often good for you, even if you're an evil bastard at heart. And she certainly doesn't understand how to even manipulate people for her own purposes. She's also stupider than Alistair, for all her ragging on him.



Personally, her reaction in the Tower when I was a mage myself was where I lost it with her. "Ummm, so I should have killed myself honey? And I should kill all the people I grew up with? Is that what you're saying? It's such a pity that I'm not allowed to kill you. Really. You need to die. Right now, right here."

[mrao]

tmp7704 wrote...

mrao wrote...

I agree. I like Morrigan and I'm still annoyed at the lack of options to reason with her. I remember there being plenty of persuade options for Alistair, why can there not be the same for Morrigan?

Because she's made a much more opinionated character, set in her beliefs. Alistair on the other hand doubts himself constantly and pretty much begs you to take the responsibility of making decisions out of his hands.

I would like to think a silver tongue'd PC would be able to appeal to Morrigan's character with regards to certain situations. For example, I should be able to tell Morrigan that Eamon would be a useful tool for getting what we need. I can picture her agreeing with such a sentiment, or at least dissaproving of your decision slightly less.

[Recidiva]

I think this quote best sums up Morrigan's character.  Even if you're playing a calculating "evil-ish" character, her lack of foresight and her very tenuous grasp of political strategy is tedious to endure, at best.  Although, I don't think it's bad writing.  Personally, I got the impression that while Morrigan thinks of herself as worldly, sophisticated and very intelligent - she's not any of those things.  Her actions (and her dialogues) show her to be, instead, shallow, rigidly selfish, provinicial and completely out of her depth when it comes to dealing with the problem of the Blight.  I remember laughing at her during my first play-through when, in Lothering, her idea of strategy was to go to Denerim and kill Loghain.  And I think this split, between what Morrigan thinks she is and what she really is, is intentional. 

I like the idea of her character, but she can be very annoying to play with.  I'd love tell her to take a hike but for the role she plays in the end game. 

She's beautifully written and Claudia Black does wonderful things with the words. 

I "get" the character and even care for her, certainly, as a player of the game.  She's about as politically savvy as Dog.  Probably less so, as she seems to think men are all morons and will all fall for beauty. 

However, my characters themselves mostly want to smack her and tell her to grow up or shut up.  But obviously, again, that's not the most strategic or wisest course with her.  You can do it, sure, but it removes depth from the game, it doesn't add it.

I think you're right that she's written that way in order to motivate her to do what she does, and she's not without depth, doubts and vulnerabilities that make her worth talking to and bringing her around...at least once....through he game.  I do get why they did it.  Although it's amusing and touching and charming, it's not smart.

[Malificis]

oh my god.. Morrigan..

i wish i knew someone like her in real life, just slightly warmer and less priggish to those close to her without changing her attitude towards the world in general. would be the ULTIMATE enigmatic amoral girl *sigh*.

[mrao]

Personally, her reaction in the Tower when I was a mage myself was where I lost it with her. "Ummm, so I should have killed myself honey? And I should kill all the people I grew up with? Is that what you're saying? It's such a pity that I'm not allowed to kill you. Really. You need to die. Right now, right here."

She views the circle mages as having dug their own grave by submitting to the authority of the templars willingly. This is exactly the kind of view Flemeth would have. She was hunted down by templars since she was a child, you really think she would feel sympathy for those mages that, in her view, give up their freedoms willingly?

Look, Morrigan is not wise or far sighted in the slightest. An above post described her as "ignorant Chasind barbarian", which looking at where and how she was raised is a perfectly reasonable assesment. 

Modifié par mrao, 28 novembre 2009 - 03:37 .

[Gilded Age]

Nosuchluck wrote...

If I didn't help save the town Bann teagan would probably be dead so I don't have him as a problem. At this point in the game Eamon is almost definatly dead. The only reason to help the town is to be a good person. The game just limits you so it's the only real option.

Wow.  First of all, I can't say enough what an awesome idea it is to ****** off the possible heir to the Arldom of Redcliffe, which might be Bann Teagan.  Whose support you definitely need, no doubt, to help challenge Loghain and end the Blight.  If we're going to assume Arl Eamon is dead in his castle full of monsters, it's not much of a leap to go from that to his young, child son being dead too.

And without the backing of the nobility, your chances of success against Loghain are greatly diminished.  Without support from the Bann, you're just another Grey Warden whackadoo with a price on your head and a bunch of treaties with people who might help you out, if blight comes to shove.  At best, without Bann support, you might be able to compel the dwarves, dailish, etc. to help you fight the civil war against Loghain...  And then that should make it super easy for the Darkspawn to take over Ferelden while you and yours are busy killing each other.

ETA:

Recidiva wrote...
She's beautifully written and Claudia Black does wonderful things with the words.   ...   I do get why they did
it.  Although it's amusing and touching and charming, it's not smart.

100% agree, Recidiva, with everything you just wrote. 

Modifié par Gilded Age, 28 novembre 2009 - 03:38 .

[Recidiva]

She views the circle mages as having dug their own grave by submitting to the authority of the templars willingly. This is exactly the kind of view Flemeth would have. She was hunted down by templars since she was a child, you really think she should feel sympathy for those mages that, in her view, give up their freedoms willingly?

Look, Morrigan is not wise or far sighted in the slightest. An above post described her as "ignorant Chasind barbarian", which looking at where and how she was raised is a perfectly reasonable assesment. 

In this case I agree with Morrigan.  I sympathized with the mages and going through the mage story I was entirely freaked out by the confinement and the tranquil.  I genuinely wanted to help Jowan out and desperately hoped to find my own phylactery and escape.  I believed he was driven by desperation to blood magic and was pissed off at Lily for abandoning him.

I'm wholeheartedly in Morrigan's camp on that score, as five minutes in the place and I wanted to run out screaming.  Being herded like sheep and being told you're evil all day didn't suit me.  Couldn't wait to get the hell out of that place.

In my view the Templars and the chantry are responsible for creating the worst of the blood mages out of desperation and defiance.

Totally on board with Morrigan there.  Did go through one play through where I convinced everyone Wynne was just an abomination trying to trick us and killed EVERYBODY.

It doesn't really solve the mage problem at all, either way.  Mages are born, not made. 

But I prefer to agree, with Morrigan, that mages are not inherently evil, and should be free and not blamed as a group for the potential abuses of individuals who share the same talents.

I just wanted the tower gone entirely because of what it stood for. 

[Vormaerin]

GA,



The logic flaw is the assumption that Teagan's demands aren't suicidal. He's demanding you add your four people to the village defense against an enemy attack of unknown size, strength, and nature. And the only reason to do that instead of escort the villagers to somewhere safe is his scarcely rational belief that someone might yet be alive in the castle of the ravenous monsters that are slaughtering the villagers.



Its a heck of a lot better to ride off to another arl than to die pointlessly defending a village.

[Herr Uhl]

Vormaerin wrote...

GA,

The logic flaw is the assumption that Teagan's demands aren't suicidal. He's demanding you add your four people to the village defense against an enemy attack of unknown size, strength, and nature. And the only reason to do that instead of escort the villagers to somewhere safe is his scarcely rational belief that someone might yet be alive in the castle of the ravenous monsters that are slaughtering the villagers.

Its a heck of a lot better to ride off to another arl than to die pointlessly defending a village.

No the reason is that they killed the people that tried to flee.

[LtlMac]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

doubledeviant wrote...

I don't understand Morrigan, and I don't understand the developer rationale for the limited fashion in which the player can interact with Morrigan.

For example (one of many instances that I could cite):

I agreed to aid Bann Teagan because:

a) He expresses support for the Grey Wardens and opposition to Loghain. = Natural Ally
If saved, Redcliffe could provide soldiers and supplies to the army. = Valuable Resources

As I explained in another topic - you're risking the lives of the last two Gray Wardens to save a handful of villagers. So, let's say the help of the Wardens makes a difference and the battle is won, but they both fall - which is a possible scenario for all that we know. What happens? The mentioned villagers get to live some months more, but after that all the Ferelden is devastated by the horde of darkspawn, since there are no more Wardens here and Alister already told you that foreign Wardens will come eventually, but it would be too late to save the country. Nice choice, really. If it was not a video game, would you take that risk? Do you think you have the right to risk THAT much?

P.S. Morrigan is Chaotic Neutral.

Very interesting thoughts.  We sometimes forget that if it weren't for the save/load feature NONE of us would have beaten the game and the blight would have won!  Having a perma death in a game would probably not be 'fun'....but it would make some decisions a lot more......meaningful and thoughtful.

[Taritu]

mrao wrote...

Personally, her reaction in the Tower when I was a mage myself was where I lost it with her. "Ummm, so I should have killed myself honey? And I should kill all the people I grew up with? Is that what you're saying? It's such a pity that I'm not allowed to kill you. Really. You need to die. Right now, right here."

She views the circle mages as having dug their own grave by submitting to the authority of the templars willingly. This is exactly the kind of view Flemeth would have. She was hunted down by templars since she was a child, you really think she would feel sympathy for those mages that, in her view, give up their freedoms willingly?

Look, Morrigan is not wise or far sighted in the slightest. An above post described her as "ignorant Chasind barbarian", which looking at where and how she was raised is a perfectly reasonable assesment. 

Willingly?  They are taken as children.  They no more voluntarily submitted to the Chantry than Morrigan voluntarily agreed to be Flemeth's "daughter". 

Again, stupid.  And saying this to me, an ex-circle mage, is extraordinarily insulting and again, stupid.

Really, my character was so offended that if the game had had an option to kill her, she would have.  (Well, if it had been a first offense, maybe not, but by this point she suspected Morrigan was an amoral sociopath and this stupidity sealed the judgement).

I get that this is "in character', the point is that her character is a moron with all the empathy and actual manipulative ability of a plant.

Anyway, each to their own.  She's an interesting character in many ways, no denying that.  But still stupid and selfish and yes, evil.

[cglasgow]

The point has already been made that you have no other arl. At this point in time the only other member of the Landsmeet who will hear out your concerns and be willing to oppose the Lord Regent is Bann Teagan himself, and he's standing right there.



But more importantly... run? Run where? The undead do not need food, sleep, or rest, while your hypothetical refugee column needs all of the above. If you flee, they will just catch you on the road. You cannot possibly hope to cover more distance than the zombie horde... you have to stop, they can sprint 24 hours a day. No matter what the village and Bann Teagan chooses, they have to fight somewhere... might as well be where they at least have some defensive positions and chokepoints.



And yes, the zombies may not pursue the villagers if they leave. May not. Bann Teagan has no reason to take that gamble, and isn't.

[Vormaerin]

If you aren't capable of escorting the villagers out during the day, you aren't capable of defeating the night time assault. Besides, I think you are misreading that. The monsters don't have the village besieged. You can ride in and out at will. They killed those to tried to flee DURING THE ASSAULTS. At that point, hiding in the chantry behind stone walls and with others helping defend was better than running madly across the fields.

[cglasgow]

No, you're missing the point. Fine, you leave during the day. How many miles will you get down the road in less than one day?



Answer: Not far enough to keep the zombies from just running past the village, down the road after you, and killing you that night in camp. Because they can cover a lot more ground than you can.



Its called strategic mobility. They have more of it than the villagers do, because they have no need to rest, and they're travelling with no baggage train.

[tmp7704]

Gilded Age wrote...

At best, without Bann support, you might be able to compel the dwarves, dailish, etc. to help you fight the civil war against Loghain...  And then that should make it super easy for the Darkspawn to take over Ferelden while you and yours are busy killing each other.

Which is a good reason not to touch Loghain with a 10 feet mage staff.

He is obsessed with Orlais and defending his borders from invasion he believes is coming. Anything else is to him secondary and put off until that particular threat is dealt with. You on the other hand have a dragon to find, one that is most likely not at the Orlais border.

Rather than bleed the forces of you both against each other take a wide berth and focus with all you have on what you're trying to accomplish. Which is dead archdemon.

[Taritu]

Recidiva wrote...

She views the circle mages as having dug their own grave by submitting to the authority of the templars willingly. This is exactly the kind of view Flemeth would have. She was hunted down by templars since she was a child, you really think she should feel sympathy for those mages that, in her view, give up their freedoms willingly?

Look, Morrigan is not wise or far sighted in the slightest. An above post described her as "ignorant Chasind barbarian", which looking at where and how she was raised is a perfectly reasonable assesment. 

In this case I agree with Morrigan.  I sympathized with the mages and going through the mage story I was entirely freaked out by the confinement and the tranquil.  I genuinely wanted to help Jowan out and desperately hoped to find my own phylactery and escape.  I believed he was driven by desperation to blood magic and was pissed off at Lily for abandoning him.

I'm wholeheartedly in Morrigan's camp on that score, as five minutes in the place and I wanted to run out screaming.  Being herded like sheep and being told you're evil all day didn't suit me.  Couldn't wait to get the hell out of that place.

In my view the Templars and the chantry are responsible for creating the worst of the blood mages out of desperation and defiance.

Totally on board with Morrigan there.  Did go through one play through where I convinced everyone Wynne was just an abomination trying to trick us and killed EVERYBODY.

It doesn't really solve the mage problem at all, either way.  Mages are born, not made. 

But I prefer to agree, with Morrigan, that mages are not inherently evil, and should be free and not blamed as a group for the potential abuses of individuals who share the same talents.

I just wanted the tower gone entirely because of what it stood for. 

Ah, so the solution to mages being kidnapped as children by Templars and kept under their thumbs is to kill the mages, not the Templars.  Damn slaves, they deserve to die for being so weak as to be slaves, and for not killing themselves rather than be slaves.

I see.

Also, frankly, mages are far better allies than Templars.  If want thugs in heavy armor, I've got the dwarves.

[cglasgow]

Except for the slight problem that Loghain will not let you just assemble your private army inside the boundaries of his kingdom without attacking it, because he believes that you are a pawn of the Orlaisans. He's also getting pretty suspicious of the dwarves by this point, because they refused to see his ambassador or pledge their loyalty. And who does that leave? The Dalish? Most humans don't trust the Dalish. The Circle? The Circle would have to defy the direct orders of the Crown in order to come aid you, and at that point, they just all became rebels and traitors too.



There's also that where do you fight the archdemon? Denerim. Loghain's capital city. He's not going to let you bring your army there.



No, Loghain really is an obstacle that you must get around before you can fight the Blight. You can't just go your own way and let him go is, because even if you're not coming after him, he's still coming after you. Because he's a hate-filled paranoid old git.

[mrao]

Willingly?  They are taken as children.  They no more voluntarily submitted to the Chantry than Morrigan voluntarily agreed to be Flemeth's "daughter". 

Voluntarily in the way that they do not fight their jailors, and willingly submit to them. Is this a narrow minded and ignorant view to have? Of course. My PC thought the mages would make powerful allies. Remember though Morrigan is an apostate and a maleficar, despised by both the Circle and the Templars. I expected her to be emotional here.

Morrigan is unable to think about the big picture for most situations because she is most useful to Flemeth's purposes to be as such. Flemeth coneived her with the goal of posessing her, she would want Morrigan to be especially short sighted and prideful so that she would never find out.

I'm not trying to get anyone to like Morrigan, I'm just saying that her personality is a direct result of her unique upbringing. I can't really imagine her being any other way.

Modifié par mrao, 28 novembre 2009 - 04:00 .

[Herr Uhl]

Vormaerin wrote...

If you aren't capable of escorting the villagers out during the day, you aren't capable of defeating the night time assault. Besides, I think you are misreading that. The monsters don't have the village besieged. You can ride in and out at will. They killed those to tried to flee DURING THE ASSAULTS. At that point, hiding in the chantry behind stone walls and with others helping defend was better than running madly across the fields.

Defending a fortified position is easier than defending on the move. The ones hiding in the chantry would only have been a liability if moving. And I somehow suspect that the fighters of the town wouldn't want to leave by themselves leaving the others to die.

I remember them saying that they came out in broad daylight and killed the ones fleeing, not during assaults.

[Vormaerin]

cglasgow wrote...

The point has already been made that you have no other arl. At this point in time the only other member of the Landsmeet who will hear out your concerns and be willing to oppose the Lord Regent is Bann Teagan himself, and he's standing right there.

But more importantly... run? Run where? The undead do not need food, sleep, or rest, while your hypothetical refugee column needs all of the above. If you flee, they will just catch you on the road. You cannot possibly hope to cover more distance than the zombie horde... you have to stop, they can sprint 24 hours a day. No matter what the village and Bann Teagan chooses, they have to fight somewhere... might as well be where they at least have some defensive positions and chokepoints.

And yes, the zombies may not pursue the villagers if they leave. May not. Bann Teagan has no reason to take that gamble, and isn't.

You are just making this stuff up out of whole cloth.    There's a freaking civil war going on, so how can you possibly think no one except Bann Teagan is willing to stand up against Loghain?    For gawd's sake, Bann Teagan ISN'T standing up against Loghain, other than mouthing off in council.

Bann Teagan is gambling that an unfortified village that is GUARANTEED to be attacked is better than whereever you can manage to get to in a few hours march that *might* be attacked.     If nothing else, that's a few hours less of darkness for the zombies to attack in.

[tmp7704]

Taritu wrote...

Damn slaves, they deserve to die for being so weak as to be slaves, and for not killing themselves rather than be slaves.

I see.

Pretty much. If i remember right she doesn't advocate to kill Jowan who dared to escape the Circle, nor the mad Hermit in the woods who is obviously an apostate gone crazy from all time spent hiding.

Wanting to kill her because she talks about these mages being worthless when your own character is a standing example that yes, there is alternate route for these guys and a way out of their cage... that's emotional but not well thought out reaction, really.

[Recidiva]

Ah, so the solution to mages being kidnapped as children by Templars and kept under their thumbs is to kill the mages, not the Templars.  Damn slaves, they deserve to die for being so weak as to be slaves, and for not killing themselves rather than be slaves.

I see.

Also, frankly, mages are far better allies than Templars.  If want thugs in heavy armor, I've got the dwarves.

No, it wasn't a solution.  It was really a cathartic tantrum on my part.  It's the least satisfying story line of the game, for me.  Deeply frustrating and tragically stupid.

I get stomping out the Deep Roads and cleaning up Branka's mess.

I get releasing the curse on the werewolves.

I do NOT get cleaning out a tower just so they go back in and do the same thing again without any change or reform.  Maddening. 

[tmp7704]

cglasgow wrote...

Except for the slight problem that Loghain will not let you just assemble your private army inside the boundaries of his kingdom without attacking it, because he believes that you are a pawn of the Orlaisans.

But that's exactly what my character did. The Landsmeet and confrontation with Loghain doesn't happen until you have all your treaties utilized and the armies ready to march for you. They are in fact already marching for you, as you run into them during the random encounters in your travels. Loghain in the meantime is still all busy bickering with the banns.
 

There's also that where do you fight the archdemon? Denerim. Loghain's capital city. He's not going to let you bring your army there.

It is not something you are aware of until the last moment when it actually happens. Even if Loghain was still present and in Denerim at this point, i have no problem with letting him have first stab at it and thinning the darkspawn in the process. I can finish the work after he's dead, that's presuming he does actually lose. (he will obviously not be able to defeat the archdemon itself but perhaps once he faces the beast he is also more open to negotiations with people who might be able to help him. i.e. the Wardens)

[Nosuchluck]

The tower is full of abominations. A good character should cleanse it incase the evil spreads outside. How do you know the mages aren't actually all abominations simply hiding in human bodies? They must be purged for the maker.

[cglasgow]

Vormaerin wrote...

You are just making this stuff up out of whole cloth.    There's a freaking civil war going on, so how can you possibly think no one except Bann Teagan is willing to stand up against Loghain?    For gawd's sake, Bann Teagan ISN'T standing up against Loghain, other than mouthing off in council.

Bann Teagan is gambling that an unfortified village that is GUARANTEED to be attacked is better than whereever you can manage to get to in a few hours march that *might* be attacked.     If nothing else, that's a few hours less of darkness for the zombies to attack in.

No, you're not reading.   The qualifications are 'willing to stand up against Loghain' AND 'willing to back your play'.   Some of the Bannorn are willing to do #1, but they don't know you from Adam's off ox, and you have no introductions to them, so why the hell would they do #2?   Why should you gamble the fate of the kingdom on expecting them to?

Unless you're playing Human Noble, none of the Bannorn even know you exist, you foreigner or commoner you.  (Granted, the game falls down a bit in that Teryn Cousland's son should entirely be able to get some political action going in his own right, but then again, Arl Howe has framed your entire family for betraying the kingdom to Orlais before murdering them all in addition to the Grey Warden arrest warrants, so, maybe not.)

As far as trading walls, palisades, and chokepoints in return for a few less hours of nighttime, that choice is tactically absurd.   You are not an army.   You are a village militia.   You have to defend the entire noncombant population of the village.  If you try to do that from an unfortified camp, even if you win the battle you're still going to have lost a whole lot of the villagers from every zombie who managed to get past your fighting line even for a minute.   You need the chantry to put them in.

Also, remember the first battle of Redcliffe?  The one on top of the cliff?  Do you remember how many freaking zombies there were up there?   What's the only thing that makes that battle manageable?   That they're coming to you in waves through a narrow chokepoint, that you can (optionally) fortify with a giant flaming oil trap.   Try to imagine that same # of zombies, plus the ones down in the village -- only they're all attacking simultaneously, and you're out in the open and surrounded by them.

Yeah, good luck with that.