885 réponses à ce sujet

[Recidiva]

Nosuchluck wrote...

The tower is full of abominations. A good character should cleanse it incase the evil spreads outside. How do you know the mages aren't actually all abominations simply hiding in human bodies? They must be purged for the maker.

I also felt really sorry for the caged templar.  It's very touching when I went back as a female mage and he's saying that the demon had pulled the one thing he always wanted...out of his mind...when I'd talked to him in the beginning story, he's so busy stuttering and not being able to look me in the eye,   And then the only thing he'll say after it's over is that he wanted to fight...with the templars.  I wanted to see how it turned out if I sided with him.  

And THEN at the end of that story, he eventually went mad and murdered a lot of people.  I wanted a different ending for him.

But you do have to justify slaughtering children to your group.  High persuade means I had the option of convincing my party they were all abominations and couldn't be trusted and couldn't be let out. 

But...eeeewww.

[Vormaerin]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Defending a fortified position is easier than defending on the move. The ones hiding in the chantry would only have been a liability if moving. And I somehow suspect that the fighters of the town wouldn't want to leave by themselves leaving the others to die.

I remember them saying that they came out in broad daylight and killed the ones fleeing, not during assaults.

At this point its just guess work.  We don't know what else is around or how far it is to the next village or, frankly, anything of any value in regard to assessing the situation.   We don't know how many zombies there are, we don't know what they are capable of, we don't know if they will pursue or how far, we don't know where we might get to by nightfall, etc.

You can say "I think it would be worse to form a rearguard to fend off the hordes while the villagers retreat than to fight on the hillside between the castle and the village".     You may be right, but its just a guess.   I can say  "retreating along that valley with the knights and PC group being a rearguard will save more lives than having everyone trapped in that stone tomb of a chantry", but since I don't actually know the terrain more than five feet out of town, it would be a guess.

Regardless, you are still gambling the entire mission on a reckless act of uninformed heroism which is something entirely reasonable to disapprove of.

[IPerrin]

I think Morrigan's sees lots of things through her spider eyes. no pity anything weak enough to get caught in the traps or "webs" of the strong.



Is Morrigan actualy wrong about redcliff? the fastest way through the game, at least in in game days.. would be brecilian forest - denerim - mage tower - orzammar - haven - redcliff... with stopping on the way to haven to tell bann teagan he will get no help, yes?



If you followed morrigan's logic in lothering, that you should go straight for logain, and you learned about the illness and brother genitivi's research from the knight in lothering's chantry, you could find it logical to call on the brecilian treaty on the way to attacking logain. finding no way to get in the fort you move on, etc.. the fastest route through the main questline should make the most sense right?

[cglasgow]

Actually, while we don't know how far it is to the next village, we do know how far it is to the next castle.



And that's pretty damn far. Because, y'know, Arls are kinda spread out.



Finding another village to hide in just gives us the same situation Redcliffe village is in, only we're even more tired and the other village probably wants to fight us for leading a zombie horde straight to it. So, really, its a **** sandwich and a gamble no matter which way you go, you might as well at least keep home field advantage and give the zombies as little running room as you can.

[Vansen Elamber]

Ok this might be a super spoiler so don't read it if you have not finished the game at least once....











































Morrigan in my oppinion is basically a minion of Flemeth, this is how Flemeth has operated for the Maker knows how long and Morrigan is part of her next plan which will grant her life eternal. Morrigan is driven by Flemeth's need which is becoming more and more pressing because of the Blight which could possibly wipe her out before Morrigan has a chance to get the 'seed of the old god" in her child. See this time around the daughter is not the vessel Flemeth seeks, instead it is the child who will be female because all through Flemeth's existance she had only had daughter born to her, never sons. Flemeth also seeks the power of the old god which she thinks she will be able to control, she has also the ability even if the player kills Flemeth to have her spirit be part of the god child because Flemeth is already part of Morrigan, like I said Morrigan is just a minion of Flemeth....

[Herr Uhl]

Vormaerin wrote...
Regardless, you are still gambling the entire mission on a reckless act of uninformed heroism which is something entirely reasonable to disapprove of.

Not disputing that, just disputing that the villagers had the chance to flee.

[kesayo2]

Spending time and resources defending from a poor strategic location like a village is stupid. The only reason one would want to waste time and troops defending a bunch of fishing huts is if you felt compassion for the people living there. The practical thing to do would be to force everyone to evacuate.

[cglasgow]

Again, successful evacuation implies that you have a safe place near enough you can reach in time, and the ability to outrun your pursuers. Neither condition applies here.

[tmp7704]

cglasgow wrote...

Actually, while we don't know how far it is to the next village, we do know how far it is to the next castle.

And that's pretty damn far. Because, y'know, Arls are kinda spread out.

On the other hand we know the Magi Tower is just a day away, if crossing the lake on boats.

Don't know how good the undead are at swimming, but i'd guess half day worth of headstart might be good enough to leave them behind. And for all you know, templars are pretty good force against the undead.

[Recidiva]

IPerrin wrote...

I think Morrigan's sees lots of things through her spider eyes. no pity anything weak enough to get caught in the traps or "webs" of the strong.

Is Morrigan actualy wrong about redcliff? the fastest way through the game, at least in in game days.. would be brecilian forest - denerim - mage tower - orzammar - haven - redcliff... with stopping on the way to haven to tell bann teagan he will get no help, yes?

If you followed morrigan's logic in lothering, that you should go straight for logain, and you learned about the illness and brother genitivi's research from the knight in lothering's chantry, you could find it logical to call on the brecilian treaty on the way to attacking logain. finding no way to get in the fort you move on, etc.. the fastest route through the main questline should make the most sense right?

I don't think it's worth it to go through the game without unlocking that Alistair is a potential heir.  Getting into the castle early so you can get the confession from Alistair and also get the locket to give him is enough reason for me to hit Redcliff early in the game.  Morrigan is a total crap healer early on, she needs to at least be level 14 to unlock spirit healer to even compare with Wynne.

Morrigan's logic is to seek out Loghain and kill him flat out.  Not an option ever.  Even attempting to do the Landsmeet earliest in the game means you'd have to do Redcliffe, Haven and potentially Mages tower if you want to save Connor for the faction.

But the fight with Ser Cauthrian and the fight with Loghain are tough enough to imagine that going that route early on in the game without the decent gear or tactics will get you dead fast.  I know you can stand down with Ser Cauthrian, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna.  I'm gonna win and get that sword, I am.

I think it's reasonable that the game gives you an opportunity to develop your team and tactics and abilities through lesser challenges than Landsmeet.  I'd hate to do that and then do the easier stuff.

[Malificis]

Ok seriously this time.

No, it isn't bad writing. The way Morrigan behaves is a result simply of how she has always lived and the fact that Flemeth is the being that raised her, for the sole purpose of possessing her later.
Therefore she is what Flemeth desires, bare in mind Flemeth will always need to live alone or with her next Future Mortal Coil, i.e. isolationist and very friendship/relationship shy with no regard for others and very little understanding of society among any set of mortals. Entirely focussed on the acquisition of power off her own back or gained at the expense of others or at least with very little cost to herself. Remember Morrigan is brought up in almost total isolation with ONLY Flemeth. Disciplined when trying to escape! (Mirror incident). Taught that this is how things should be, i.e. she should not have tried to get the noblewoman's mirror out of vanity.
Therefore she is missing major things humans learn in growing up because she is simply unexposed to them. HIGHLY TRAGIC figure with some similarities with such figures as Eustacia Vye in English literature (cite: Return of the Native by T. Hardy).
Her attempts to break this massively inbuilt mental state are crushed by a world in turmoil where the way of living given to her by Flemeth (attitute towards others/blind selfishness) are far more successful (Howe's highly immoral route to power and Loghain's success until Warden does everything) than those of more virtuous characters (Alistair's failed attempt at familial love with sister/Oghren's good hearted attempt at convincing Branca to give up her actions and obsession/knowing Warden will die for killing demon without her amoral plan of action which will save him).
Incidentally, this plan sums up Morrigan's reasons in this argument. It is emphatic that her plan will indeed work where the honourable and virtuous choice will result in the characters death due to the archdemon corruption. Selfishness and amorality is shown to prevail here as it is in many cases through Ferelden and Orlais.
Attempts at getting close to others are shown to fail (alistair sis as mentioned) and love is a weakness when people are at each others throats. Just as Flemeth has taught her for her (Flemeth)'s own benefit in the future.
In a world less beset by conflict and hate Morrigan may have changed by seeing the good side of things. Not entirely but less afraid.
The scene by the fire when she tells you in stilted and hurt comments that her closeness to you is a weakness and "you must stop...but i dont want to..but i do, but i must!" (paraphrased) is heartbreaking because she is almost out of the shell Flemeth has put round her due to the Warden's love but ultimately fails because she has been in this mental state for too long and the situation conspires against her breaking out of it.
In the end she has been brought up (around 20 yrs old?) for 20 years on Flemeth's way of living and retreats from her insane amount of new experiences with society, love and people from the origin of living in a hut in a swamp with a demigod. She retreats because she is scared and things happen far too fast in an unstable climate.
Again, if things happened more slowly in a better world Morrigan of Flemeth may have become more confident with learning new things.
...
Didn't you ever wonder why she cant bring herself to go to the main fire? It is also highly symbolic that her fire is bigger and stronger than the main ones, all by herself. She is characterised by a tragic conflict between what she has been indoctrinated into what she thinks she wants and what she really really wants, but in the end the latter is uncertain just as Ferelden's fate is unstable and society is unstable.
EXTREMELY complex character with an isolation warped superiority complex and brought up in a cold but effective relationship with an evil demi-god. Possibly the most complex character i've ever seen in a game, could write full blown essays on Morrigan's behaviour in camp alone.
---
If you read this and understood it please give thoughts, tried to make it as simple as possible while getting point across.
Source: 2nd year Psychology, KCLondon University.

Modifié par Malificis, 28 novembre 2009 - 04:30 .

[Vormaerin]

cglasgow wrote...


No, you're not reading.   The qualifications are 'willing to stand up against Loghain' AND 'willing to back your play'.   Some of the Bannorn are willing to do #1, but they don't know you from Adam's off ox, and you have no introductions to them, so why the hell would they do #2?   Why should you gamble the fate of the kingdom on expecting them to?

 Except that's not supported by the game...   People know Alistair is a gray warden and they accept that you are also when you do talk to them.    Remember, you do fight along side some of the bannorn at various points, you talk to guards and officials at various times.

And you are talking about people who need allies against Loghain just as much as you do.

Besides which, what crack are you smoking about "backing your play"?    Arl Eamon doesn't back your play.  He lets you back his.   He sets the entire agenda from the moment you talk to him and if you object to anything he says, response is pretty much "that's impossible".   What play is he backing besides 'dump Loghain', which is surely what all the guys actually fighting Loghain are hoping to achieve...

Again, Bann Teagan doesn't have anywhere near the authority that Arl Eamon or the other Arls have.   Loghain brushed him off like a gnat at the council and he went meekly home while others have stood up militarily.

[keesio74]

1. Morrigan feels Redcliffe (city and castle) are already lost so why waste time trying to save it

2. Morrigan is not any strategic genius (she is a witch who grew up in the forest)

3. Her mom made her come. She never wanted to help in the first place and at that point in the game, she really doesn't give a crap about anything or anymore.



Her character makes sense to me.

[Rolenka]

It seems to me that if you want to suck up to Arl Eamon, letting Redcliffe Village die is a poor way to do that.
In this instance, yes, she is chaotic stupid.

[Vormaerin]

cglasgow wrote...

Again, successful evacuation implies that you have a safe place near enough you can reach in time, and the ability to outrun your pursuers. Neither condition applies here.

Again, you are just making facts up.   You know NOTHING about the terrain.   For all either of us know, there could be a far superior bottleneck further up the valley.  Or it could open up into a wide open plain of utter indefensibility.  You also have no idea how fast the zombies can move or how far they can go from the castle and still be animated by the demon's power.

[mrao]

Malificis wrote...

Ok seriously this time.

No, it isn't bad writing. The way Morrigan behaves is a result simply of how she has always lived and the fact that Flemeth is the being that raised her, for the sole purpose of possessing her later.
Therefore she is what Flemeth desires, bare in mind Flemeth will always need to live alone or with her next Future Mortal Coil, i.e. isolationist and very friendship/relationship shy with no regard for others and very little understanding of society among any set of mortals

I enjoyed reading that post, very insightful. Her internal conflict is what makes her so interesting to me. Of course, some people will simply not want much to do with her, and I think it really hinges on the character you are playing. Not everyone will want to put up with all her insecurities. The fact that the player is given very few instances where he can persuade her does not help. Perhaps if she was more malleable, she would be easier to like.

Modifié par mrao, 28 novembre 2009 - 04:47 .

[Vormaerin]

Rolenka wrote...

It seems to me that if you want to suck up to Arl Eamon, letting Redcliffe Village die is a poor way to do that.
In this instance, yes, she is chaotic stupid.

Did you miss the part about how sucking up to Arl Eamon is not a factor, because its irrational to believe he's alive after several days in a castle full of killer zombies?   Besides which, what is Eamon's option?   Support Loghain?   Rebel in his own name and be crushed?

[IPerrin]

Recidiva wrote...

IPerrin wrote...

I think Morrigan's sees lots of things through her spider eyes. no pity anything weak enough to get caught in the traps or "webs" of the strong.

Is Morrigan actualy wrong about redcliff? the fastest way through the game, at least in in game days.. would be brecilian forest - denerim - mage tower - orzammar - haven - redcliff... with stopping on the way to haven to tell bann teagan he will get no help, yes?

If you followed morrigan's logic in lothering, that you should go straight for logain, and you learned about the illness and brother genitivi's research from the knight in lothering's chantry, you could find it logical to call on the brecilian treaty on the way to attacking logain. finding no way to get in the fort you move on, etc.. the fastest route through the main questline should make the most sense right?

I don't think it's worth it to go through the game without unlocking that Alistair is a potential heir.  Getting into the castle early so you can get the confession from Alistair and also get the locket to give him is enough reason for me to hit Redcliff early in the game.  Morrigan is a total crap healer early on, she needs to at least be level 14 to unlock spirit healer to even compare with Wynne.

Morrigan's logic is to seek out Loghain and kill him flat out.  Not an option ever.  Even attempting to do the Landsmeet earliest in the game means you'd have to do Redcliffe, Haven and potentially Mages tower if you want to save Connor for the faction.

But the fight with Ser Cauthrian and the fight with Loghain are tough enough to imagine that going that route early on in the game without the decent gear or tactics will get you dead fast.  I know you can stand down with Ser Cauthrian, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna.  I'm gonna win and get that sword, I am.

I think it's reasonable that the game gives you an opportunity to develop your team and tactics and abilities through lesser challenges than Landsmeet.  I'd hate to do that and then do the easier stuff.

  You have to hit denerim up to learn the loc of haven.  I wasnt trying to suggest I'd be able to call a landsmeet so early on.  while my character went to denerim more seeking such a confrontation than seeking brother genitivi's research.  he was unable to call a landsmeet himself, and unable to assault the castle.

  Either way, my point had nothing to do with what makes the game more fun, and everything to do with the question of wether morrigan's opinions are stupid.  how can wasting a day defending the village be smart when we could spend that day en route to haven?

[Elanareon]

Gilded Age wrote...

Nosuchluck wrote...

If I didn't help save the town Bann teagan would probably be dead so I don't have him as a problem. At this point in the game Eamon is almost definatly dead. The only reason to help the town is to be a good person. The game just limits you so it's the only real option.

Wow.  First of all, I can't say enough what an awesome idea it is to ****** off the possible heir to the Arldom of Redcliffe, which might be Bann Teagan.  Whose support you definitely need, no doubt, to help challenge Loghain and end the Blight.  If we're going to assume Arl Eamon is dead in his castle full of monsters, it's not much of a leap to go from that to his young, child son being dead too.

And without the backing of the nobility, your chances of success against Loghain are greatly diminished.  Without support from the Bann, you're just another Grey Warden whackadoo with a price on your head and a bunch of treaties with people who might help you out, if blight comes to shove.  At best, without Bann support, you might be able to compel the dwarves, dailish, etc. to help you fight the civil war against Loghain...  And then that should make it super easy for the Darkspawn to take over Ferelden while you and yours are busy killing each other.

ETA:

Recidiva wrote...
She's beautifully written and Claudia Black does wonderful things with the words.   ...   I do get why they did
it.  Although it's amusing and touching and charming, it's not smart.

100% agree, Recidiva, with everything you just wrote. 

Well, considering he will be dead tomorrow, why would it matter? Besides he was a Bann! HE already has spoken to the Landsmeet and that didn't do anything.

[Elanareon]

Taritu wrote...

mrao wrote...

Personally, her reaction in the Tower when I was a mage myself was where I lost it with her. "Ummm, so I should have killed myself honey? And I should kill all the people I grew up with? Is that what you're saying? It's such a pity that I'm not allowed to kill you. Really. You need to die. Right now, right here."

She views the circle mages as having dug their own grave by submitting to the authority of the templars willingly. This is exactly the kind of view Flemeth would have. She was hunted down by templars since she was a child, you really think she would feel sympathy for those mages that, in her view, give up their freedoms willingly?

Look, Morrigan is not wise or far sighted in the slightest. An above post described her as "ignorant Chasind barbarian", which looking at where and how she was raised is a perfectly reasonable assesment. 

Willingly?  They are taken as children.  They no more voluntarily submitted to the Chantry than Morrigan voluntarily agreed to be Flemeth's "daughter". 

Again, stupid.  And saying this to me, an ex-circle mage, is extraordinarily insulting and again, stupid.

Really, my character was so offended that if the game had had an option to kill her, she would have.  (Well, if it had been a first offense, maybe not, but by this point she suspected Morrigan was an amoral sociopath and this stupidity sealed the judgement).

I get that this is "in character', the point is that her character is a moron with all the empathy and actual manipulative ability of a plant.

Anyway, each to their own.  She's an interesting character in many ways, no denying that.  But still stupid and selfish and yes, evil.

Well, you did persuade her to let her see that kind of thinking. DId it not? So let's not take the mage tower thing into account because the PC was able to sway her opinion on that matter. 

[Elanareon]

cglasgow wrote...

The point has already been made that you have no other arl. At this point in time the only other member of the Landsmeet who will hear out your concerns and be willing to oppose the Lord Regent is Bann Teagan himself, and he's standing right there.

But more importantly... run? Run where? The undead do not need food, sleep, or rest, while your hypothetical refugee column needs all of the above. If you flee, they will just catch you on the road. You cannot possibly hope to cover more distance than the zombie horde... you have to stop, they can sprint 24 hours a day. No matter what the village and Bann Teagan chooses, they have to fight somewhere... might as well be where they at least have some defensive positions and chokepoints.

And yes, the zombies may not pursue the villagers if they leave. May not. Bann Teagan has no reason to take that gamble, and isn't.

Incidentally, the Bann has no worht in the matter. That's why he was desperately going for Eamon as well. The Banorn is already at war with Loghain and they needed Eamon to tip the scales. So bottom line is Teagan needs Eamon as well...

[mrao]

Well, you did persuade her to let her see that kind of thinking. DId it not? So let's not take the mage tower thing into account because the PC was able to sway her opinion on that matter. 

Perhaps my persuade was not high enough at the time, but all I had was "this is my decision, shut up" or "i agree", with regards to Morrigans view in the tower.

[Elanareon]

cglasgow wrote...

Except for the slight problem that Loghain will not let you just assemble your private army inside the boundaries of his kingdom without attacking it, because he believes that you are a pawn of the Orlaisans. He's also getting pretty suspicious of the dwarves by this point, because they refused to see his ambassador or pledge their loyalty. And who does that leave? The Dalish? Most humans don't trust the Dalish. The Circle? The Circle would have to defy the direct orders of the Crown in order to come aid you, and at that point, they just all became rebels and traitors too.

There's also that where do you fight the archdemon? Denerim. Loghain's capital city. He's not going to let you bring your army there.

No, Loghain really is an obstacle that you must get around before you can fight the Blight. You can't just go your own way and let him go is, because even if you're not coming after him, he's still coming after you. Because he's a hate-filled paranoid old git.

Oh did you knew that you were fighting the archdemon in Denerim? HAIL MAKER!!! hehe Anyway the perceived battle was suppose to be at Redcliffe, no? And do you really think that Loghain would still not accept the Grey Wardens if he saw the archdemon? Remember he believes this isn't a true blight. "This isn't a true Blight Anora!"

[Malificis]

mrao wrote...

Malificis wrote...

Ok seriously this time.

No, it isn't bad writing. The way Morrigan behaves is a result simply of how she has always lived and the fact that Flemeth is the being that raised her, for the sole purpose of possessing her later.
Therefore she is what Flemeth desires, bare in mind Flemeth will always need to live alone or with her next Future Mortal Coil, i.e. isolationist and very friendship/relationship shy with no regard for others and very little understanding of society among any set of mortals

I enjoyed reading that post, very insightful. Her internal conflict is what makes her so interesting to me. Of course, some people will simply not want much to do with her, and I think it really hinges on the character you are playing. Not everyone will want to put up with all her insecurities. The fact that the player is given very few instances where he can persuade her does not help. Perhaps if she was more malleable, she would be easier to like.

thanks
No, most people won't see anything apart from the outer idea of Morrigan
Having any persuasion attempts to such a character would be counterproductive to character development. No one likes having beliefs fervently instilled in them for their entire lives with no other alternatives or ways of learning new things aside from the single course of thought taught to them likes to have those beliefs questioned. It results in massive insecurity and defensiveness - hence Morrigan's reaction to having feelings for someone when she has been taught for 20 years by the only being she has ever known that this is wrong. Compounded by a feeling of become attached to the first person she has ever known who isnt Flemeth, the original point of the relationship being one of gain for her (the child).

She is already making massive efforts to come to terms with her feelings for someone she intended to merely use - convincing her to change her beliefs towards the world as well would be like trying to make the earth spin in the other direction ;p

[AG3]

The main "weakness" of Morrigan's character is the fact that this being a game limits your ability to reason with her, making her seem far more unreasonable than she actually is. A lot of her arguments make sense from a non-meta gaming point of view, where you have no foresight and no "reload if we die/screw up". Players kind of make huge leaps of faith when helping out people in the game, because we know from other RPGs that this pays off in experience, rewards and plot advancement. But for the actual characters you control, this is not knowledge they possess.



You're playing a small party of adventures with limited time and resources, and any time you waste doing something that may not pay off or help your cause at all is only giving the blight more time to spread across the world and make your mission of stopping it that much harder. From a non-meta game perspective there's no "experience" for helping the weak for no reward in return, no gain at all from giving money or help to many of those in need. It only wastes time and resources better spent elsewhere, and they will only have one chance at doing this right. In that light, Morrigan's mindset of not wasting resources or putting yourself in harm's way just for the sake of simple peasants makes a lot of sense, moreso because she's been raised to look after no one but herself.



Also, as has been mentioned earlier, Morrigan is shortsighted and thinks she knows a lot more than she actually does. She also has her views, tastes and her prejudices like "real" human beings do, and these are not always in line with what we consider socially acceptable or reasonable. If anything, most game characters (especially PCs) seem devoid of the shortcomings that real life humans have, and I applaud Bioware for making their characters have their sets of flaws and weaknesses like normal humans do.



Just look at the real world. How many people (both in positions of political power and otherwise) do you see who are always reasonable and take the long term view in account in all their decisions? If anything, Morrigan is closer to a normal human being in her behaviour than the semi-perfect "heroes" you'd usually find in RPGs.