885 réponses à ce sujet

[Kangaxx_54]

Malificis wrote...

Ok seriously this time.

No, it isn't bad writing. The way Morrigan behaves is a result simply of how she has always lived and the fact that Flemeth is the being that raised her, for the sole purpose of possessing her later.

That was a very nice post; it gave me a lot to think about. Especially the fact that she must have been completely overwhelmed by so many new things and feelings, happening in a very short timespan. I think I might have my next char run off and look for her at the end.

I also have to agree with those here, who say that Morrigans disagreement in Redcliffe made sense. The points have been made over and over, so I won't repeat them, but for Morrigan, with her experiences or lack thereof it didn't seem strange to me.

[Elanareon]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

If you aren't capable of escorting the villagers out during the day, you aren't capable of defeating the night time assault. Besides, I think you are misreading that. The monsters don't have the village besieged. You can ride in and out at will. They killed those to tried to flee DURING THE ASSAULTS. At that point, hiding in the chantry behind stone walls and with others helping defend was better than running madly across the fields.

Defending a fortified position is easier than defending on the move. The ones hiding in the chantry would only have been a liability if moving. And I somehow suspect that the fighters of the town wouldn't want to leave by themselves leaving the others to die.

I remember them saying that they came out in broad daylight and killed the ones fleeing, not during assaults.

But the debate is about helping them or just go the the other groups which the treaties impy is it not? Morrigan wants to leave Redcliffe to its own fate beacause your goal there is sick inside of a undead infested castle which sends out hordes of undead to take the village. I interpret that as no more hope for Eamon. That's why Sten and Morrigan saw that its pontless staying there and go to the other treaty holders. 

And before you start about Bann Teagan, he is at Redcliffe as well seeking the help of Eamon. Doesn't it say that Teagan is powerless against Loghain?

[Elanareon]

cglasgow wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

You are just making this stuff up out of whole cloth.    There's a freaking civil war going on, so how can you possibly think no one except Bann Teagan is willing to stand up against Loghain?    For gawd's sake, Bann Teagan ISN'T standing up against Loghain, other than mouthing off in council.

Bann Teagan is gambling that an unfortified village that is GUARANTEED to be attacked is better than whereever you can manage to get to in a few hours march that *might* be attacked.     If nothing else, that's a few hours less of darkness for the zombies to attack in.

No, you're not reading.   The qualifications are 'willing to stand up against Loghain' AND 'willing to back your play'.   Some of the Bannorn are willing to do #1, but they don't know you from Adam's off ox, and you have no introductions to them, so why the hell would they do #2?   Why should you gamble the fate of the kingdom on expecting them to?

Unless you're playing Human Noble, none of the Bannorn even know you exist, you foreigner or commoner you.  (Granted, the game falls down a bit in that Teryn Cousland's son should entirely be able to get some political action going in his own right, but then again, Arl Howe has framed your entire family for betraying the kingdom to Orlais before murdering them all in addition to the Grey Warden arrest warrants, so, maybe not.)

As far as trading walls, palisades, and chokepoints in return for a few less hours of nighttime, that choice is tactically absurd.   You are not an army.   You are a village militia.   You have to defend the entire noncombant population of the village.  If you try to do that from an unfortified camp, even if you win the battle you're still going to have lost a whole lot of the villagers from every zombie who managed to get past your fighting line even for a minute.   You need the chantry to put them in.

Also, remember the first battle of Redcliffe?  The one on top of the cliff?  Do you remember how many freaking zombies there were up there?   What's the only thing that makes that battle manageable?   That they're coming to you in waves through a narrow chokepoint, that you can (optionally) fortify with a giant flaming oil trap.   Try to imagine that same # of zombies, plus the ones down in the village -- only they're all attacking simultaneously, and you're out in the open and surrounded by them.

Yeah, good luck with that.

Precisely the point! Why stay and defend the village if its a lost cost?

[Recidiva]

Precisely the point! Why stay and defend the village if its a lost cost?

Because it's clearly not a lost cause if you do something?

There's no real reason to dismiss every little bit of information that's been dropped your way about how important Arl Eamon is, and abandon his holdings to the ravages of the undead.

And that's Morrigan's charm.  She always points out the most narcissistic path.  That doesnt' mean it's the right one, it means it's the only one she knows how to find or follow.

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

Because it's clearly not a lost cause if you do something?

Well, the very reason you embark on your quest is, the few of you hold no hope of defeating army of darkspawn and the archdemon just on your own.

So to expect the very few of you are out of sudden expected to stand up to what for all you're told is an army of undead... well that's crossing the line between optimistic and foolish, i think. The Bann might consider it because he's utterly desperate and sees no way out but try and most likely die trying, but your character has no obligation to subscribe to this view, especially the die trying part.

[AG3]

Recidiva wrote...

Precisely the point! Why stay and defend the village if its a lost cost?

Because it's clearly not a lost cause if you do something?

There's no real reason to dismiss every little bit of information that's been dropped your way about how important Arl Eamon is, and abandon his holdings to the ravages of the undead.

And that's Morrigan's charm.  She always points out the most narcissistic path.  That doesnt' mean it's the right one, it means it's the only one she knows how to find or follow.

But at the same time, it's not clearly a winnable cause either, which is part of Morrigan's reaction. If you as a player die, you reload the game. But for the characters themselves in the game, death is a very possible, likely and PERMANENT outcome of trying to help the village against the attack (moreso if you read all the forum threads with people who struggle with that fight). On top of that, it is far more likely that Eamon is dead already than it being possible to save him is.

Modifié par AG3, 28 novembre 2009 - 05:35 .

[Akka le Vil]

Recidiva wrote...

It doesn't really solve the mage problem at all, either way.  Mages are born, not made.

But I prefer to agree, with Morrigan, that mages are not inherently evil, and should be free and not blamed as a group for the potential abuses of individuals who share the same talents.

I just wanted the tower gone entirely because of what it stood for. 

The point is, the kind of freedom Morrigan advocates is not out of ethics, but simply because she's irresponsible and have no morals. There will be abominations and they will ravage villages ? She doesn't care. Once you start to not care about the casualties and only about the fact that you should be free and the others just have to suffer the consequences, it sure starts to be easier to advocate what is convenient.
She certainly is eager to make other pay for the consequences of her ideas, but she cry foul if others do the same. Her hypocrisy as its finest

tmp7704 wrote...

Wanting to kill her because she talks
about these mages being worthless when your own character is a standing
example that yes, there is alternate route for these guys and a way out
of their cage... that's emotional but not well thought out reaction,
really.

Not everyone can be chosen as a Grey Warden, though. That's quite unfair for the other mages.

tmp7704 wrote...

But that's exactly what my
character did. The Landsmeet and confrontation with Loghain doesn't
happen until you have all your treaties utilized and the armies ready
to march for you. They are in fact already marching for you, as you run
into them during the random encounters in your travels. Loghain in the
meantime is still all busy bickering with the banns.

Yes, but your four armies aren't sufficient to fight off the Blight, you NEED the Ferelden army (which imply getting rid of Logahin).
And considering Loghain already destroyed one army that was fighting the Blight, you just can NOT have him on your back while you take on the Blight.
Either way, you HAVE to dispose of him, and in a way that leave both your forces and his undamaged.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 28 novembre 2009 - 05:49 .

[cglasgow]

Elanareon wrote...

Precisely my point!  Why stay and defend the village if its a lost cost?

Where on God's green Earth did you get that out of what I said?

Running is the lost cause: the zombies will harry the village's retreat and kill them all the first time the villagers stop to rest, which will be a helluva lot sooner than the zombies will (which is never).

Holding the village is Teagan's best bet.  Remember, Bann Teagan, Arl Eamon's few knights, and the militia have already beaten off several nights' worth of attacks.  In the village, they're only losing on attrition... and the arrival of four hero-level units makes all the difference between losing on attrition and winning the battle.  (Remember also that your party is bringing at least one, if not two or three, mages to the fight: you are a strategic force multiplier vastly out of proportion to your size.)

Sure, holding the village isn't a great bet, but the reason Bann Teagan is standing and fighting despite the lousy odds is that the odds of evacuating are even worse, as in zero.   The dude is making the best of what little he has to work with.   But he's not being stupid, and neither are you for choosing to back his play.

Modifié par cglasgow, 28 novembre 2009 - 05:53 .

[Recidiva]

But at the same time, it's not clearly a winnable cause either, which is part of Morrigan's reaction. If you as a player die, you reload the game. But for the characters themselves in the game, death is a very possible, likely and PERMANENT outcome of trying to help the village against the attack (moreso if you read all the forum threads with people who struggle with that fight). On top of that, it is far more likely that Eamon is dead already than it being possible to save him is.

I didn't question it in the slightest.  Morrigan reacted badly to a merchant overcharging.  I wasn't going to listen to her moral compass when people are in danger.  There's nothing in the game to lead you to trust Morrigan's motivations or judgment.  If in fact you follow all of her advice, you don't take Leliana, either.  If you play the game according to Morrigan's suggestions, it's you and her and...nobody else.  She doesn't like anybody else.

Flemeth had also already pretty much laid out the direness of the situation and the bare bones of what I had to work with and Alistair had already said he was our best bet.  She was clear in saying that Arl Eamon, Dwarves, Mages and Elves sounded like an army.  There's no reason to think any one of those are optional.  And they're really not.  In fact you needed Eamon for a very clear reason, the Landsmeet.  Alistair says so at Flemeth's hut as well.  Even forces you to come up with a plan on the way into Lothering.  To at least find the Arl's body and set up some sort of succession, which would mean Bann Teagan, now indebted to you for clearing out his castle, is at least one of the most plausible and clear paths to take.  It's very human, very understandable, and is not a strategic loss in any way.  I can tolerate not knowing you're playing a game as an argument only so far when you're...playing a game.  What gamer in their right mind stumbles on a haunted town and then just jets out of there?  Silent Hill and Fatal Frame would be so sad....

Much clearer than Orzammar, where you have to pick one of two tyrants, or the tower, where you have to decide whether or not to set loose abominations, or my favorite, Landsmeet where you have to do what Arl Eamon says and rescue Anora, that just SCREAMS "trap."

Speaking to Berwick in the tavern, you already know that Loghain had Eamon watched and likely was behind whatever it was that was going on.  It's entirely tied to thwarting Loghain directly, more than any other segment.

It makes real world strategic sense, it makes game sense, a lot more than the ones I mentioned, and it makes zero sense to listen to Morrigan about preserving human life or gaining allies.

[Elanareon]

I just quoted you for pointing out the situation of the village. I was referring to Morrigan's point of view that saving the village is a waste of time. Which is the topic of the thread i believe?

[KalosCast]

Most of Morrigan's actions come from growing up with animals and Flemeth, which makes her a very strong proponent of the idea that if people can't take care of themselves, then they have deserved whatever fate comes down on them. It makes of an irritating character to be around, sure, but at least her personality is consistent.

[Recidiva]

The point is, the kind of freedom Morrigan advocates is not out of ethics, but simply because she's irresponsible and have no morals. There will be abominations and they will ravage villages ? She doesn't care. Once you start to not care about the casualties and only about the fact that you should be free and the others just have to suffer the consequences, it sure starts to be easier to advocate what is convenient.
She certainly is eager to make other pay for the consequences of her ideas, but she cry foul if others do the same. Her hypocrisy as its finest

Yes, I didn't agree with Morrigan's use of her own power, but I think that power needs to be free until or unless someone proves they have broken a law.  Making "being a mage" illegal is horrific.  It's a civil rights thing at that point.  For me, anyway.  I ended up agreeing with Morrigan in principle, if not in degree.  You're free to have power and use it responsibly without being policed.  Only AFTER you break a reasonable law should a person be punished.

Trying to navigate that conversation is tricky.  If you say "I feel sorry for the templars" as if you're saying you appreciate her power and obviously the templars would fail, she gets all preachy again about "Well, you can feel pity for them, they had none for us."

She said she didn't actually blame the templars for standing behind what they believe.  Which amplified her hatred for the domesticated mage.  She and Flemeth fought for their freedom and were willing to kill to defend it.  In the end, I respect that more than I do accepting being told that you're inherently evil, then accepting it and becoming evil because someone else said so.  I prefer those who fight for their identities.

Yes, that's an extreme case, using a little girl as bait to lure templars to their doom...but...oh well.  They're templars.  I have little sympathy for them either.  They're lost to lyrium addiction.

[KalosCast]

Recidiva wrote...
Yes, that's an extreme case, using a little girl as bait to lure templars to their doom...but...oh well.  They're templars.  I have little sympathy for them either.  They're lost to lyrium addiction.

What a Morrigan-esque view towards a group of people who clearly show plenty of morally redeeming characters in their number (pretty much all the ones with actual names, excluding Cullen) and likely didn't have much choice in the matter about getting thrown into the Chantry (during our similar era, a very large number of children get dumped into a cloister, regardless of where they come from)

[IPerrin]

[/quote]

  If you play the game according to Morrigan's suggestions, it's you and her and...nobody else..[/quote]

    As long as you make Alistair insist on bringing the dog along, and offer to make Alistair feed him (which could be taken as offering Alistair up as dog food), Morrigan approves of adding the dog to the party.  I dont remember Morrigan disapproving or saying anything at all when oghren joined.

   How did you forget sten? Morrigan clearly has a crush on sten.

[Recidiva]

What a Morrigan-esque view towards a group of people who clearly show plenty of morally redeeming characters in their number (pretty much all the ones with actual names, excluding Cullen) and likely didn't have much choice in the matter about getting thrown into the Chantry (during our similar era, a very large number of children get dumped into a cloister, regardless of where they come from)

It's not really Morrigan-esque or I'd be having plans to make money off of selling them more Lyruim (check with Godwin) and using their dim wits against them and profiting from their weaknesses and lack of judgment.

I'd rather they were free to make their own choices, free of addiction and free of dogma that has no reflection on reality.

[DariusKalera]

cglasgow wrote...

Elanareon wrote...

Precisely my point!  Why stay and defend the village if its a lost cost?

Where on God's green Earth did you get that out of what I said?

Running is the lost cause: the zombies will harry the village's retreat and kill them all the first time the villagers stop to rest, which will be a helluva lot sooner than the zombies will (which is never).

Holding the village is Teagan's best bet.  Remember, Bann Teagan, Arl Eamon's few knights, and the militia have already beaten off several nights' worth of attacks.  In the village, they're only losing on attrition... and the arrival of four hero-level units makes all the difference between losing on attrition and winning the battle.  (Remember also that your party is bringing at least one, if not two or three, mages to the fight: you are a strategic force multiplier vastly out of proportion to your size.)

Sure, holding the village isn't a great bet, but the reason Bann Teagan is standing and fighting despite the lousy odds is that the odds of evacuating are even worse, as in zero.   The dude is making the best of what little he has to work with.   But he's not being stupid, and neither are you for choosing to back his play.

The village is probably in the worst defensible position imaginable.  Its basically in a bowl at the bottom of a cliff with only 1 way in.  Which also means there is only one way out in case something goes terribly wrong and the defenders get overwhelmed.  To try and get away if that happens, they have to run back through the undead zombies.  Even if you count the lake as a way in or out, you still have to go through zombies. 

The smart thing to do would have been for Teagan to abandon the town and move the defensive fortifications there to the top of the hill at the cross roads between the village and the road to the castle.  It is a better defensive location and if it came down to it, it gives some of the defenders a chance to get away by actually running away from the castle and the zombies and not through them.  Besides, its far easier to defend the top of a hill than it is a depression.  You gain the advantage of hieght (for projectiles), and for seeing the enemy before theyre actually on top of you, and a downward slope for things like rocks, logs, and even that burning oil.

However, I do not really blame Teagan for not being stratigically, nor tactically, proficient.   Since the fight against Orlais happened 30 years ago and he is maybe 40, (too young to have done any real fighting in the rebellion) he has no combat experience when it comes to situations such as this.  Though, this is under the assumption that Fereldan has been at peace since then, which, from all indications, it has been.

[Recidiva]

    As long as you make Alistair insist on bringing the dog along, and offer to make Alistair feed him (which could be taken as offering Alistair up as dog food), Morrigan approves of adding the dog to the party.  I dont remember Morrigan disapproving or saying anything at all when oghren joined.

   How did you forget sten? Morrigan clearly has a crush on sten.

Morrigan wants Sten released.   Not to make him assist the Grey Wardens.  She wants Jowan released.  Not to have him caged.  She's a fan of freedom.  She doesn't really want anybody else to have to trudge along with the group.

She thinks your head was cracked hard upon recruiting Leliana.

She thinks you should check your food after recruting Zevran.

Basically if there's a way to be suspicious or untrusting, she's your girl.

She does like dog and that's charming.   Eventually.   But me, dog, Loghain and Morrigan do not a happy family make.  And I think it's mean that she spurned his half-eaten, putrid hare.  Especially since she should know how the social structure of wolves work.

As far as I can tell, the only conversation I see with Oghren and Morrigan is "It's ogling me again."  She won't talk to him otherwise.

[AG3]

Recidiva wrote...

It makes real world strategic sense, it makes game sense, a lot more than the ones I mentioned, and it makes zero sense to listen to Morrigan about preserving human life or gaining allies.

It only makes complete sense if you assume/know that Arl Eamon is alive and will be willing/able to help you, provided you survive the village defense and castle invasion, not to mention the possibility of having to look for the urn of sacred ashes that might not even exist since supposedly nothing else has been successful in curing his poisoning. Arl Eamon is a huge, massive gamble in the situation the party is in. It's easy to justify as a player since you can reload the game at will and take your sweet time with it and basically do no wrong that can't be undone. It's a lot harder to justify as a character in the game when you don't know for sure that Arl Eamon will be able to help you at all, risking time, resources and your very lives on the slim, extremely unlikely chance that he is still alive and not beyond saving. In a real life scenario extremely few people would bet it all on such a slim chance and would rather try to work around it.

It's easy to say "but you NEED Eamon to beat Loghain", but suppose that it wasn't an option at all, that Eamon really was dead. You'd have to work around it, spend your efforts elsewhere, and that is a very likely scenario for the people you control in the game. In a real life scenario it doesn't make sense to gamble it all on the tiniest, most unlikely hope. It makes sense to spend those efforts on something where the odds of success are a lot higher.

I'm not saying Morrigan is always right and that her opinions are always well thought out and make sense, but that one situation in the village is one that she pretty much has right, even if she's not putting it very eloquently.

Modifié par AG3, 28 novembre 2009 - 06:34 .

[Akka le Vil]

Recidiva wrote...

Yes, I didn't agree with Morrigan's use of her own power, but I think that power needs to be free until or unless someone proves they have broken a law.  Making "being a mage" illegal is horrific.  It's a civil rights thing at that point. For me, anyway.  I ended up agreeing with Morrigan in principle, if not
in degree.  You're free to have power and use it responsibly without
being policed.  Only AFTER you break a reasonable law should a person
be punished.

It's not illegal to be mage. It's illegal to be mage and not be part of the Circle.
Of course the Circle is something like a prison, but the mages aren't so much "punished" than "separated".

Not that I'm a big fan of the Towers, but honestly, try to argue to a whole decimated village that they were slaughtered by an abomination because of a civil right point. The problem with mages is that if something goes bad, the price to pay is quite HEAVY.

Actually, how to treat mages is one of the real moral headache of the game when you start thinking about it.

But the carefree "never mind for the consequences" attitude of Morrigan is childish at best, self-servingly evil at worst.

Trying to navigate that conversation is tricky.  If you say "I feel sorry for the templars" as if you're saying you appreciate her power and obviously the templars would fail, she gets all preachy again about "Well, you can feel pity for them, they had none for us."

She said she didn't actually blame the templars for standing behind what they believe.

Actually, that's another of her countless contradiction and hypocrisy. She says she doesn't hold a grudge on the templars because they acted in what they believed, but if you dare to have the same opinion, BLAM, "disapprove".
I mean, you just basically see things from their point of view, just like she asks about, and she is angry. Try to find any logic in this.

Which amplified her hatred for the domesticated mage.  She and Flemeth fought for their freedom and were willing to kill to defend it.  In the end, I respect that more than I do accepting being told that you're inherently evil, then accepting it and becoming evil because someone else said so.  I prefer those who fight for their identities.

Mages aren't considered evil by the Chantry, actually. If they were, they wouldn't be sent to the Circle, they would be killed on the spot.
What I find ironic is that despite the very tense relationship between Templars and Mages, the former actually sacrifice their lives so that mages can live. Templars are in the end, amusingly, the protectors of the mages, and the Chantry is using a LOT of ressources to keep the mages alive.

A very twisted and weird situation all in all, that Morrigan is simply too stupid/narrow-minded to understand in all its complexity.

Yes, that's an extreme case, using a little girl as bait to lure templars to their doom...but...oh well.  They're templars.  I have little sympathy for them either.  They're lost to lyrium addiction.

You realize that the Templars have little more choice in their paths than the mage ? Or did you put your hands on your ears when talking to Alistair ?

[Recidiva]

It only makes complete sense if you assume/know that Arl Eamon is alive and will be willing/able to help you, provided you survive the village defense and castle invasion, not to mention the possibility of having to look for the urn of sacred ashes that might not even exist since supposedly nothing else has been successful in curing his poisoning. Arl Eamon is a huge, massive gamble in the situation the party is in. It's easy to justify as a player since you can reload the game at will and take your sweet time with it and basically do no wrong that can't be undone. It's a lot harder to justify as a character in the game when you don't know for sure that Arl Eamon will be able to help you at all, risking time, resources and your very lives on the slim, extremely unlikely chance that he is still alive. In a real life scenario extremely few people would bet it all on such a slim chance and would rather try to work around it.

It's easy to say "but you NEED Eamon to beat Loghain", but suppose that it wasn't an option at all, that Eamon really was dead. You'd have to work around it, spend your efforts elsewhere, and that is a very likely scenario for the people you control in the game. In a real life scenario it doesn't make sense to gamble it all on the tiniest, most unlikely hope. It makes sense to spend those efforts on something where the odds of success is a lot higher.

I think the first time through I had talked to the Smith and was convinced through conversations with him and with Alistair that the arlessa was the evil behind it all.   Either way, there was evil and I had a staff and such and could zap thingies.  My Harrowing made me less fearful of demons and more likely to suspect human duplicity in things.  I also knew about blood magic and wasn't really scared.  Jowan was the least scary person ever.

I spent most of the game thinking Loghain was either demonically possessed or an abomination.

I drew a lot of bad conclusions because they really do throw in a ton of red herrings. 

But I had fun asking questions anyway.  There were other bits of the plot that just made me want to put the controller down and ask "Really? I'm supposed to buy that?  REALLY?"   This wasn't one of them.

[Akka le Vil]

AG3 wrote...

It's easy to say "but you NEED Eamon to beat Loghain", but suppose that it wasn't an option at all, that Eamon really was dead. You'd have to work around it, spend your efforts elsewhere, and that is a very likely scenario for the people you control in the game.

Honestly, in this case, I think the next best course is either assassinating Loghain, or simply riding on to Orlais ans waiting at the frontier with their armed forces until Ferelden ask for official assistance or is razed to the ground by the Blight.

[AG3]

Recidiva wrote...
I think the first time through I had talked to the Smith and was convinced through conversations with him and with Alistair that the arlessa was the evil behind it all.   Either way, there was evil and I had a staff and such and could zap thingies.  My Harrowing made me less fearful of demons and more likely to suspect human duplicity in things.  I also knew about blood magic and wasn't really scared.  Jowan was the least scary person ever.

I spent most of the game thinking Loghain was either demonically possessed or an abomination.

I drew a lot of bad conclusions because they really do throw in a ton of red herrings. 

But I had fun asking questions anyway.  There were other bits of the plot that just made me want to put the controller down and ask "Really? I'm supposed to buy that?  REALLY?"   This wasn't one of them.

I can agree with that, but what you with your background think and suspect and what Morrigan with her background thinks and suspects are quite different all the same. I'm not saying Morrigan was right (she obviously, to us, wasn't), I'm saying that her line of thought wasn't unreasonable considering the situation they were in. If anything, I think it's a weakness in the game scenario that you can't ever end up in a situation where Eamon is beyond saving and you have to work around it, even if the outcome isn't as good as it would be with Eamon alive.

[Recidiva]

It's not illegal to be mage. It's illegal to be mage and not be part of the Circle.
Of course the Circle is something like a prison, but the mages aren't so much "punished" than "separated".

Not that I'm a big fan of the Towers, but honestly, try to argue to a whole decimated village that they were slaughtered by an abomination because of a civil right point. The problem with mages is that if something goes bad, the price to pay is quite HEAVY.

Actually, how to treat mages is one of the real moral headache of the game when you start thinking about it.

But the carefree "never mind for the consequences" attitude of Morrigan is childish at best, self-servingly evil at worst.

Actually, that's another of her countless contradiction and hypocrisy. She says she doesn't hold a grudge on the templars because they acted in what they believed, but if you dare to have the same opinion, BLAM, "disapprove".
I mean, you just basically see things from their point of view, just like she asks about, and she is angry. Try to find any logic in this.

Mages aren't considered evil by the Chantry, actually. If they were, they wouldn't be sent to the Circle, they would be killed on the spot.

What I find ironic is that despite the very tense relationship between Templars and Mages, the former actually sacrifice their lives so that mages can live. Templars are in the end, amusingly, the protectors of the mages, and the Chantry is using a LOT of ressources to keep the mages alive.

A very twisted and weird situation all in all, that Morrigan is simply too stupid/narrow-minded to understand in all its complexity.

You realize that the Templars have little more choice in their paths than the mage ? Or did you put your hands on your ears when talking to Alistair ?

Yup, twisted and weird.  No, mages didn't have any choice other than to accept chantry rule or be apostates and templars didn't have a choice other than to be indoctrinated.  I Iistened to Alistair, and he seemed very relieved to no longer be a templar, to not be under Chantry rule, and to not lose his personality to lyrium.  Meeting the templar at the chantry door in Denerim only cemented my dislike.  But that doesn't mean I bought his simplistic attitude regarding blood mages any more than I bought Morrigan's diatribes about love in all forms being manipulative illusion.

There are any number of tools that are dangerous in our lives.  Someone driving drunk doesn't mean everyone else has to give up their cars and walk.  Punish those who do harm to others.  Leave the rest alone.  Making draconian laws that punish everyone isn't acceptable.  Laws that punish those who have committed a reasonable crime are the only just laws.  What they got was tyranny.

Yes, the price of crime is high.  But I think the price of making everyone a de facto criminal is higher.

[cglasgow]

DariusKalera wrote...

The village is probably in the worst defensible position imaginable.  Its basically in a bowl at the bottom of a cliff with only 1 way in.  Which also means there is only one way out in case something goes terribly wrong and the defenders get overwhelmed.  To try and get away if that happens, they have to run back through the undead zombies.  Even if you count the lake as a way in or out, you still have to go through zombies. 

The smart thing to do would have been for Teagan to abandon the town and move the defensive fortifications there to the top of the hill at the cross roads between the village and the road to the castle.  It is a better defensive location and if it came down to it, it gives some of the defenders a chance to get away by actually running away from the castle and the zombies and not through them.  Besides, its far easier to defend the top of a hill than it is a depression.  You gain the advantage of hieght (for projectiles), and for seeing the enemy before theyre actually on top of you, and a downward slope for things like rocks, logs, and even that burning oil.

Not so.

You talk about having a clear line of retreat, but retreat is pointless.   The villagers have no hope in hell to get away.   They have no way to outrun the zombies, period.   At this point, any and all tactical considerations that are based on keeping a clear line of retreat open fall by the wayside.   Bann Teagan's only hope is to hold a siege and pray to the Maker that reinforcements arrive in time.   (The reinforcements, as it happens, turn out to be you.)

Edit: As for how he was sending out messengers to round up what of Arl Eamon's knights he could?  Knights have horses.   They can move faster than the zombie march.   But, there's nowhere near enough mounts to move all the civilians at cavalry speed, and that's assuming they all even know how to ride.

And so he chose to stick in the village with the stout walls of the chantry and the streets to funnel attackers.   The zombies have no ranged weapons or siege artillery, so the normal disadvantages of being in a bowl do not apply.   So why not stay down there?

As for the top of the hill, that has all the disadvantages of camping in the road: nowhere to put all the people.   He can't hope to fit everyone in the windmill, and that's the only building up there.   (Plus, the windmill has a tunnel leading to the castle... and while it takes an Eamon family signet ring to open it, he has to worry that whoever or whatever is in the castle might have taken the Arl's.)

Modifié par cglasgow, 28 novembre 2009 - 06:50 .

[Rain_titane]

All i can say about Morrigan is that "honesty" and it is sometimes cruel to be kind and helpfull.
Maybe its the animal aspect i dont know but forgot the word but anyway its like even horses kill their just born if they are unable to stand up in 60-180 minutes in the wild (logic behind that might be rather brake the neck of the child that cant run away from a bobcat or similiar and be chocked to death by it or as the blood fills the lungs and slowly chocking and possibly being still alive as its eaten). Although a exsample isnt a proof but still its just a point of view like a sword can go both ways. Sorry if there is some major spelling errors but those cant be helped sometimes

Modifié par Rain_titane, 28 novembre 2009 - 07:04 .