885 réponses à ce sujet

[Alex Savchovsky]

cglasgow wrote...
You talk about having a clear line of retreat, but retreat is pointless.   The villagers have no hope in hell to get away.   They have no way to outrun the zombies, period.   At this point, any and all tactical considerations that are based on keeping a clear line of retreat open fall by the wayside.   Bann Teagan's only hope is to hold a siege and pray to the Maker that reinforcements arrive in time.   (The reinforcements, as it happens, turn out to be you.)

"Reinforcements" implies there is some force available already. There is a bunch of peasants - no training, no weapons, no armor, nothing. Of course he should evacuate at once. Especially as he seemed confident about that the attackers won't come until night. At the very least, the undead won't know where the villagers are, as opposed to the case where he foolishly waits them and tries to fight.
It is quite amusing that so many people here talk about characters lacking strategical thinking while supporting such a strategical nonsense. A seven years old kid could come up with a better strategy.

[cglasgow]

Yes, yes, insult people while repeating the same debunked points, that's such a wonderful thing.



You keep talking about evacuating without acknowledging that refugees on foot or with wagons will never outrun zombies.



As to how to find them... gee, I dunno, use the road? Follow the wagon tracks? The zombies do have enough rudimentary intelligence to find the village, after all.

[Coik]

Taritu wrote...

Willingly?  They are taken as children.  They no more voluntarily submitted to the Chantry than Morrigan voluntarily agreed to be Flemeth's "daughter". 

Again, stupid.  And saying this to me, an ex-circle mage, is extraordinarily insulting and again, stupid.

What I find interesting is that, on my first play through (mage, non-hardened Alistair as king, taking Morrigan's offer), one of the options I had after killing the archdemon was for Alistair to release the Circle of Magi from Chantry control and let them police themselves.  And, as that was the option I took, he does agree to it (though I wish you could've spoken about it further with First Enchanter Irving).

I think the problem with Morrigan (and Sten) arises from the fact that they, as characters, have fully fleshed out personalites but your options for interacting with them are severely limited.  While understandable due to limitations in scripting, voice acting budget, game bloat, etc.  it can be a bit pertubing that my high-Cunning, level 5 Speechcraft character can persuade or intimidate one subset of NPCs (everyone outside the party, essentially) into doing damn near anything she pleases, but is unable to do something as simple as "(Persuade) Sten, we need several armies here.  You're into the 'STEN SMASH DARKSPAWN' thing and that's cool, but if you want a real chance of killing the archdemon and ending Blight, shut up for two friggin seconds"

It's jarring that I can completely talk down Logaine's BFF/Ultimate fangirl/stalker Ser Cauthrien with a few well chosen words, yet am utterly unable to turn my silver tongue on the majority of my crack squad of maniacs that I'm travelling around with, and whose habits, perculatities and preferences I get to know intimately.  With high enough Persaude and Cunning, I should be able to not only convince Morrigan that saving Arl Eamon is consistent with her "One for me and all for me" world view, but that it was her idea to begin with.

[DariusKalera]

I was actually talking about further up the road where you first enter the area before you cross the bridge, its got a house there too. Both the road to the town and the one to the castle intersect there with a third road leading out and away.

As for getting away, there is hope. It takes "a day" to get from Redcliff to the Circle Tower, at least according to Alistair. This is info that would have been known to Teagan from the very beginning. If he didn't know then its just another mark against him.

This travel time puts Honaleth, Lothering, and most importantly, Orzamar less than a days travel away. Granted some of those aren't the best choices, but when you first start the village portion of Redcliff, Lothering is still there and accessible.

The actually traveling would be some what easy since it would all be by the King's Highway.

While it is true the zombies have no ranged weapons or artillery, why would you hamper your defense by staying in a bowl for that reason? All the advantages that the defenders have in the bowl are multiplied on the hill. Every single piece of defensive equipment they have, be it armor, weapons, barricades, all work better up there.

If you stay in the bowl, you are right, there is no hope of anyone getting out barring help (pc and crew) coming in. Any where else, there is a chance, granted a small one, that some people will survive simply becuase the zombies can't be every where and chase every one at the same time.

Modifié par DariusKalera, 28 novembre 2009 - 07:48 .

[cglasgow]

Presumably, the reason the Circle of Magi is a day's travel away is because you're using the lake.

Except you can't use the lake until the zombie horde is dealt with, as the second attack wave comes out of the lake. I really wouldn't want to be in a small boat in zombie infested waters.

As for Orzammar, for all we know he did send a messenger.  And that messenger would have gotten the same results that Loghain's envoy did -- '****** off.'

Honnleath is worthless: its a small village with no troops.   As for Lothering... remember, at least one of Arl Eamon's knights helping defend the village passed through Lothering on his way in.   Bann Teagan already knows he'll have no help coming from there.

Modifié par cglasgow, 28 novembre 2009 - 07:51 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

cglasgow wrote...

Yes, yes, insult people while repeating the same debunked points, that's such a wonderful thing.

You keep talking about evacuating without acknowledging that refugees on foot or with wagons will never outrun zombies.

As to how to find them... gee, I dunno, use the road? Follow the wagon tracks? The zombies do have enough rudimentary intelligence to find the village, after all.

Oh, of course, yet another brilliant strategy, use the road when you want to hide, of course! And when evacuating, take everything possible, so you're slowed down as much as possible. Gee... is it that hard to assume the villagers know the village surroundings and can take alternate escape routes? And few hours and several direction changes ahead of the zombie horde would feel... I dunno... a bit safer than staying in a village to be raided maybe? Unless you want to play heroes, or martyrs, more like.

[cglasgow]

So you're going to move a column of civilians cross country, and do it faster than tireless enemies who can sprint at a dead run for 24 hours straight.

Short of pulling a miracle straight out of your ass, exactly how do you intend to achieve this? For someone who sneers at everyone else's ignorance, you seem kinda less than fully informed on medieval travel speeds.

As for the 'stupidity' of 'taking everything along'... if you're abandoning the village, then the villagers need to be able to feed themselves and their families at the other end.   This is hard enough to do after you've lost your home, and its a lot harder as a penniless refugee with no spare clothes, food, or the tools of their respective trades.

Seriously.   Pretend there is a zombie horde coming for your hometown right now.   Get up out of your house, walk out your front door with only what's in your pockets and the nearest weapon you could grab.   Don't use your car, you're trying to empathize with people in medieval times fleeing danger.

How far are you going to get?   Not very.

Modifié par cglasgow, 28 novembre 2009 - 07:59 .

[Recidiva]

What I find interesting is that, on my first play through (mage, non-hardened Alistair as king, taking Morrigan's offer), one of the options I had after killing the archdemon was for Alistair to release the Circle of Magi from Chantry control and let them police themselves.  And, as that was the option I took, he does agree to it (though I wish you could've spoken about it further with First Enchanter Irving).

I think the problem with Morrigan (and Sten) arises from the fact that they, as characters, have fully fleshed out personalites but your options for interacting with them are severely limited.  While understandable due to limitations in scripting, voice acting budget, game bloat, etc.  it can be a bit pertubing that my high-Cunning, level 5 Speechcraft character can persuade or intimidate one subset of NPCs (everyone outside the party, essentially) into doing damn near anything she pleases, but is unable to do something as simple as "(Persuade) Sten, we need several armies here.  You're into the 'STEN SMASH DARKSPAWN' thing and that's cool, but if you want a real chance of killing the archdemon and ending Blight, shut up for two friggin seconds"

It's jarring that I can completely talk down Logaine's BFF/Ultimate fangirl/stalker Ser Cauthrien with a few well chosen words, yet am utterly unable to turn my silver tongue on the majority of my crack squad of maniacs that I'm travelling around with, and whose habits, perculatities and preferences I get to know intimately.  With high enough Persaude and Cunning, I should be able to not only convince Morrigan that saving Arl Eamon is consistent with her "One for me and all for me" world view, but that it was her idea to begin with.

I agree.  And for otherwise intelligent characters, one thing in particular REALLY bothered me.
There's a point in the story where you can tell Alistair that what really matters is that you're in love.  And he goes entirely off and freaks out about me saying that, and gives me a lecture about duty and honor and basically spits in my face and stomps off.
I went over and hugged my husband and felt entirely betrayed, and had to explain to him "You'd know what I meant if I said that what mattered was the love itself...right...that any choices we had to make from that point wouldn't affect that...right?  Stupid Alistair."  I got a hug and a tissue.  Fortunately I have an actual husband who's better than stupid Alistair, but still.  Ow.
Alistair is brilliantly written...to a point.  Then he loses ALL his cool points.  That's the spot, right there.   There was no indication that Alistair was a slave to class, or race...NO indication that he took genuine affection or love so lightly and could toss it aside like that.  Doodie head.  There should have been a warning...SOMEWHERE.  He spends the WHOLE GAME talking about how much he hates fate and his blood determining who he is, and then falls right into line with the idea that appearances must be kept up and realities must be denied.  Ugly.
And I hate that you have to harden his personality by telling him "Everyone" is only out for themselves.  Couldn't I at least say "SOME" people are out for themselves and he has to learn to judge for himself.

[DariusKalera]

Well, if you travel to Circle Tower from Redcliff it shows you going along the road on the western bank of the lake. This is shown when, or if, you agree to go to the Circle Tower for their help in freeing Connor. I would assume that the quickest way is taken, which, as I said, you are shown taking the road.



Yeah, I would think that paddling or sailing there across the lake would be quicker, but apparently it isn't.

[cglasgow]

Yeah, but I'm assuming that the map loading screen is not always literally accurate in all details, just like cutscenes.

[AtreiyaN7]

If you talk to her, you'll see that the philosophy that Flemeth taught her amounts to survival taking precedence over everything else. There's no room for being "nice," no room for friendship, love or golden mirrors, or wasting time on little people for that matter. To Morrigan, it's probably a huge waste of time saving a bunch of useless villagers when you could be convincing the dwarven nation or all the Dalish elves. Maybe her view of things is essentially "survival of the fittest."

[Volourn]

"She doesn't approve of almost any action that advances the story in any way that directly aids another human being other than her or her sense of personal power"



This isn't true. Even in Recliffe this isn't true. She says to let Jowan go yet she gets absolutely no benefit from it.



And, I doubt the zombies would chase the villagers. They weren't after the villagers. Their master was sending them to 'reclaim' *his* village. If the villagers had left, they'd be safe from them.

[cglasgow]

Maybe. He does later on talk about conquering the world, after all.



But more importantly, when we're debating whether or not Bann Teagan was making nonstupid decisions, we have to take into account the information he had available at the time he had to decide, and he had no idea what the motivations of whatever was in the castle was at that time (besides the visibly obvious 'rarrr! zombie horde kill!').

[Alex Savchovsky]

cglasgow wrote...

So you're going to move a column of civilians cross country, and do it faster than tireless enemies who can sprint at a dead run for 24 hours straight.

Running 24 hrs straight is a viable strategy. Provided you know where to run. Which is not that hard to hide. And by the way, there's a nice chance that the zombies won't follow for long. It's not like they have a personal vendetta with the peasants.

[Felene]

The Angry One wrote...

If she doesn't know then she should keep her damn mouth shut.

I really wish there is a option to tell her to shut up everytime she spoke nonsense.
Or correcting her by inform her how ridiculously her logic was.

Just saying. <_<

Modifié par Felene, 28 novembre 2009 - 08:39 .

[TheDrunkenPanda]

...just going to say this, from my PC's perspective (human noble), Morrigan is a freakin' '******. From his perspective at the time, for all he knew, the Arl was dead and the castle overrun by zombies, and the only one who could call upon Redcliffe's forces is Teagan, who so happens to be inside the village chantry and letting him die in the zombie attack would be...bad.



Now, lets assume in a hypothetical scenario, my PC leaves the village to burn and manages to sneak into the castle through, I don't know, a flying panda, whatever. He fights his way through the throngs of undead and low and behold, Arl Eamon IS dead. So Teagan is dead, Eamon is dead. Great. Time to find the elves and dwarves, right? So, we gather the dwarves, the elves, and the templars or mages. An army, right? Oh wait, that's right. Loghain claimed the Grey Wardens were traitors and killed the king. And somehow, I doubt that Loghain would be...amenable to allowing an army of foreigners, for that is what they are, they are not Feraldens, save for the Templars/mages, to march around Feralden without challenging them with an army of his own, thus wasting resources fighting one another than using those resources to challenge the Blight. No, better to gain the backing of a nobleman and the forces he can call upon and challenge Loghain politically than on the field of battle. Would a dwarf/elf commoner or a dalish elf think the same? Maybe not, but that is the reasoning of my human noble.



Anyway, back to the point that this thread was started on. I think Morrigan is just a selfish b**** who has no real sense of a larger picture and throws a temper tantrum whenever the leader doesn't do something that agrees with her. Sure, the Grey Wardens may die on that foolhardy defense, and the Blight will overwhelm Feralden. But would the result be any different if the Wardens died challenging Loghain on the field of battle? Or fielding an army too small to engage the Blight long enough to deliver the killing blow? Heck, they could have died by tripping on a rock and falling off a cliff marching around Feralden.

[DariusKalera]

cglasgow wrote...

Maybe. He does later on talk about conquering the world, after all.

But more importantly, when we're debating whether or not Bann Teagan was making nonstupid decisions, we have to take into account the information he had available at the time he had to decide, and he had no idea what the motivations of whatever was in the castle was at that time (besides the visibly obvious 'rarrr! zombie horde kill!').

Honeslty, I think it actually comes down to what his priorities are.  I think he was more concerned with what was happening in the castle than he was with saving the villagers and village.  All of his decisions reflect this.

If it was reversed, then he WOULD have found a way to get the villagers out of there before it was too late and done so along time before the PC showed up.

[alexandros777]

I've told her to shut up before. Something about a venomous tongue that she should keep to herself and what not.



She didn't disapproval nearly as much as I thought she would. Silly conflicted girl.



But I agree the pc sometimes doesn't have the logical choices I would truly rather say. Like, "shut your witch mouth, this is an excellent opportunity to get rewards."

[koshiee]

LOL  @ chaotic stupid

[Volourn]

If people don't like Morrigan, just tell her to leave. Problem solved.

[Baalzie]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

"Reinforcements" implies there is some force available already. There is a bunch of peasants - no training, no weapons, no armor, nothing. Of course he should evacuate at once. Especially as he seemed confident about that the attackers won't come until night. At the very least, the undead won't know where the villagers are, as opposed to the case where he foolishly waits them and tries to fight.
It is quite amusing that so many people here talk about characters lacking strategical thinking while supporting such a strategical nonsense. A seven years old kid could come up with a better strategy.

Have You played the game? Did You listen to the dialogue?
Bann Teagan TELLS You they have attacked every night for 3 nights, so that "nonexistant" force have already beaten the undead 3 times, but are now down to the last straw because of losses...

He also says that when they DID try to evacuate it draw out the undead EVEN IN MID DAY!

So he TRIED to evacuate and it almost got the village eradicated!
Maybe YOU are the not so smart one, debating about something You obviously haven't even kept tabs on?
Tsssk... Call people nonsensical when You have at best halfknowledge of the actual situation.... Congratulations Sir, You are a real winner!

[Nightfish103]

Maybe they just made Morrigan that way to create the maximum amount of controversy. That seems to be working really well.



Personally I despise her. Not just because she's evil, but because, as the OP and various others have stated, she makes no sense half of the time. I can appreciate someone being evil if he's consequent about it.



Some people say she makes more sense later in the game. To me, that's not true. Especially once you realise her stakes in this, she makes less sense than ever. She should want my cause, and thus, my allies, to be as strong as possible. That's sorta not working if we let them all die because they have a problem we could easily solve.



Another thing that pissed me off to no end was her asking me for help on her personal quest. Putting me into harms way for no good reason other than "i can't solve my own ****", and she seriously expects me to do it. Not so much dissapproving there once you were on the receiving end of help, eh ****? She's not just an ass, she's also a hypocrite...



I wonder how many people would make a case for her if she was ugly. You know, old, fat, with a couple warts and a big crooked nose. My guess is: not so many.

[Brockololly]

Boy, this thread escalated quickly... I mean it really has gotten out of hand. It jumped up a notch.

[Baalzie]

And to make and addendum that's actually on topic: Morrigan do tend to react negatively to any kind of help to needing, EVEN if thereäs a lot to be gained, because it does nothing for HER... And she's not the silent type, if it spoils Your plans, who cares? She never objects infront of the leaders of the ones to honor the treaties though afaik...

[mrao]

I wonder how many people would make a case for her if she was ugly. You know, old, fat, with a couple warts and a big crooked nose. My guess is: not so many.

Ah yes the old, "anyone who likes a character I don't like must be shallow" argument. I swear they should just dress every character in chantry robes so I'd never have to hear it.

People have posted fairly good explanations of why they find the character interesting in this thread. Malificis' post on page 12 was pretty thorough.

Personally, I find her upbringing fascinating, and her sarcastic comments amusing. Obviously I don't think she is the best "character in rpg history" or whatever, but I thought she was fun to have around in general.

Modifié par mrao, 28 novembre 2009 - 09:27 .