885 réponses à ce sujet

[Hamarabi2006]

I think Claudia Black is awesome, but the character Morrigan is nothing but a wench, to put it nicely.



Right.



The biggest problem I have with negative approval ratings is that they are not later reversed by successful results. If Morrigan's opinion is proven overwhelmingly wrong, shouldn't her approval rating go back to the level it was before the issue came up? I'm not expecting her to apologize, but her opinion about the issue should change, should it not? It's called reflection.

[red8x]

Recidiva wrote...

What I find interesting is that, on my first play through (mage, non-hardened Alistair as king, taking Morrigan's offer), one of the options I had after killing the archdemon was for Alistair to release the Circle of Magi from Chantry control and let them police themselves.  And, as that was the option I took, he does agree to it (though I wish you could've spoken about it further with First Enchanter Irving).

I think the problem with Morrigan (and Sten) arises from the fact that they, as characters, have fully fleshed out personalites but your options for interacting with them are severely limited.  While understandable due to limitations in scripting, voice acting budget, game bloat, etc.  it can be a bit pertubing that my high-Cunning, level 5 Speechcraft character can persuade or intimidate one subset of NPCs (everyone outside the party, essentially) into doing damn near anything she pleases, but is unable to do something as simple as "(Persuade) Sten, we need several armies here.  You're into the 'STEN SMASH DARKSPAWN' thing and that's cool, but if you want a real chance of killing the archdemon and ending Blight, shut up for two friggin seconds"

It's jarring that I can completely talk down Logaine's BFF/Ultimate fangirl/stalker Ser Cauthrien with a few well chosen words, yet am utterly unable to turn my silver tongue on the majority of my crack squad of maniacs that I'm travelling around with, and whose habits, perculatities and preferences I get to know intimately.  With high enough Persaude and Cunning, I should be able to not only convince Morrigan that saving Arl Eamon is consistent with her "One for me and all for me" world view, but that it was her idea to begin with.

I agree.  And for otherwise intelligent characters, one thing in particular REALLY bothered me.
There's a point in the story where you can tell Alistair that what really matters is that you're in love.  And he goes entirely off and freaks out about me saying that, and gives me a lecture about duty and honor and basically spits in my face and stomps off.
I went over and hugged my husband and felt entirely betrayed, and had to explain to him "You'd know what I meant if I said that what mattered was the love itself...right...that any choices we had to make from that point wouldn't affect that...right?  Stupid Alistair."  I got a hug and a tissue.  Fortunately I have an actual husband who's better than stupid Alistair, but still.  Ow.
Alistair is brilliantly written...to a point.  Then he loses ALL his cool points.  That's the spot, right there.   There was no indication that Alistair was a slave to class, or race...NO indication that he took genuine affection or love so lightly and could toss it aside like that.  Doodie head.  There should have been a warning...SOMEWHERE.  He spends the WHOLE GAME talking about how much he hates fate and his blood determining who he is, and then falls right into line with the idea that appearances must be kept up and realities must be denied.  Ugly.
And I hate that you have to harden his personality by telling him "Everyone" is only out for themselves.  Couldn't I at least say "SOME" people are out for themselves and he has to learn to judge for himself.

lol Doodie Head .. that is an apt description for Alistair.

[Vormaerin]

Look, the village has zero defensive value other than allowing you to put the civilians in the chantry. There is no difference between standing in the narrows where the knights are fighting in the scenario and doing a rear guard as the villagers flee down the narrow valley out of here.



You can make up any claims you want about the capabilities and motivations of the zombies, but you are doing just that: making them up. Maybe they can run 24 hours a day as far as they want from the demon. Maybe they can leap tall mountains in a single bound, swim the length of lake calenhad, and make rational tactical decisions while doing so. Or maybe they are just zombies. Your argument is also ridiculous because you assume the zombies are so powerful they'll slaughter the villagers as they flee, then turn around and say "gosh, the villagers beat them three times already so surely you are enough to turn the tide of battle". You also have no idea that fending the assault off tonight will actually end the threat and result in a mysterious ability to assault the castle. The villagers have "won" three times and every time the zombies come back stronger. Isn't that their story? So Bann Teagan's stated plan is: Stay in this bowl below the castle enduring ever stronger zombie attacks for the rest of your short life. Sorry, that's just a stupid plan.



;Btw, did you look at the map when you travel? You don't go across the Lake when you take your day's journey to the mage tower.

[Recidiva]

lol Doodie Head .. that is an apt description for Alistair.

It is, isn't it?  Hardened Alistair is easier to deal with plotwise, but I'm afraid I'm an incurable romantic who believes that love is a true gift not to be forsaken and all that stuff.

Yes, I can wield a sword and kill things and all that, but that just ripped the whole heart, and motivation out of it for me.

So I cried for a while after the shock wore off and I cursed the ancestors of whatever writer couldn't come up wtih something better for me.

But in the end to get anything resembling a "true love" ending where stuff doesn't completely fall apart, I have to be a guy.  That way I can sacrifice myself and Alistair looks good in his armor and makes a pretty speech and I get the ending I intended.  I was SO MAD when I discovered there was no possible way to have Alistair in love with me and sacrifice myself.  Even if the romance is over and he dumped me and avoided my gaze through the following nasty bits.  So not only do I have a star-crossed and screwed romance, but now I'm going to be aware that I'm the only reason why the King is dead?  Oh GREAT!  That's just great.  You guys suck.

And alas, having him sleep with Morrigan is just nightmare-inducing and not an option as far as happy endings go either.

[mrao]

Recidiva wrote...

And alas, having him sleep with Morrigan is just nightmare-inducing and not an option as far as happy endings go either.

If it makes you feel better, romancing Morrigan never ends happily either. Of course we have fair warning in that case, many times over.

[Driveninhifi]

The way I see it is that there are two Morrigans. There's Morrigan the character you talk to in camp and quest for - the one who is the sad, vulnerable girl trying to act tough. Then there's plot Morrigan who is essentially the devil on your shoulder whenever you have to make a decision. I'd expect one to influence the other, but that really doesn't happen much unfortunately.

[MassEffect762]

I think Claudia Blacks tone of voice during the chat about the ritual came off as suspicious which I'm sure was no doubt biowares intention.



Do you trust her?.......and then SMACK cliffhanger.

[Recidiva]

If it makes you feel better, romancing Morrigan never ends happily either. Of course we have fair warning in that case, many times over.

It's a shame that two of the characters that are with you the longest and have the most backstory and the most interesting voice acting and writing...will screw you sooooo hard.  In a good way and then not in a good way.

I've done the Leliana and Zevran romance options, they're not as compelling in the slightest in comparison.

Even Morrigan is more interesting.  Morrigan gives you a ring and Alistair gives you a rose.  Leliana and Zev give you crazy and ribald, but not really...the same level of intimate romance, or surprises.

It also has to do with the spacing of the story, maybe.  Alistair spreads it out over an entire game and it's impossible to just 'unlock' Alistair all at once.  It's going to take two, maybe three major plot turns before he loses all cool and propositions you.  You can also sleep with and/or kiss Alistair as often as you like without being rebuffed.

Morrigan's proposition is coy, but not romantic.  She doesn't actually get romantic until she's busy avoiding your gaze and giving you a ring and claiming she sucks, but she loves you.  Still more interesting than Lel or Zev, both of who just start pouring out everything they've got pretty much in one sitting once you hit a certain point.

I pretty much "accidentally" ended up sleeping with Morrigan and Zev.  That's not really possible with Lel or Alistair.  Makes for a longer social game, I guess.

One nice thing about Alistair also that you can't have with other characters...I LOVE the public kissing in front of other characters and their responses.  Was sad to find out that Leliana doesn't kiss in public.  Also weirded out that Morrigan will really only sleep with you once, but everyone says she's sneaking in and out of your tent all night.  Lel was funniest.  "You've been splashing around in her swamp!"

[red8x]

The problem with Morrigan, as with the other characters, is that while there was characterization (i.e. the characters had a background and plausible motivations) there was no character development.  She was essentially the same at the end as when we first meet her. 

She has some throwaway lines about regret but if she truly felt regret then there should have been some change to her character.

Also, if a character were truly fleshed out properly there shouldn't be a question as to whether they are good or evil.  And before I draw out the moral relativsts into a war of semantics by evil I mean a 'bad person.'

Personally, I think she is well written enough to know that she is not a good person.  She is a bad person.  She's the kind of person that would watch a person drown because she finds it impractical to try and save them.
   

[Recidiva]

red8x wrote...

The problem with Morrigan, as with the other characters, is that while there was characterization (i.e. the characters had a background and plausible motivations) there was no character development.  She was essentially the same at the end as when we first meet her. 

She has some throwaway lines about regret but if she truly felt regret then there should have been some change to her character.

Also, if a character were truly fleshed out properly there shouldn't be a question as to whether they are good or evil.  And before I draw out the moral relativsts into a war of semantics by evil I mean a 'bad person.'

Personally, I think she is well written enough to know that she is not a good person.  She is a bad person.  She's the kind of person that would watch a person drown because she finds it impractical to try and save them.
   

Yes, and there's no "hardening" or in her case "softening" aspect to the game that you can run through like you can with Alistair or Leliana.  No nuance that's going to change in any playthrough.  All she's got is an approval slider.
Frankly, Morrigan has little replay or tinker value.  Nothing you can do will really have any effect.
She's well written as a narcissist though.  That's what they're like.  They'll telll you what they want and if you do it, they like you.  They don't care what you want, and if you tell them what that is, they won't like you.  Simple.

[Ahisgewaya]

tmp7704 wrote...
I'd think once i'm inside they'll have their hands too full to pay attention to the outside. Plus, aren't they said to attack at night, leaving plenty time to attack them before that happens?

This is the biggest thing that annoyed me with this particular quest. We spent an ENTIRE DAY sitting on our collective asses waiting for nightfall, when the real source of the problem is clearly in the castle. Now that is stupid. Bad writing.

[Ahisgewaya]

Gilded Age wrote...
I think this quote best sums up Morrigan's character.  Even if you're playing a calculating "evil-ish" character, her lack of foresight and her very tenuous grasp of political strategy is tedious to endure, at best.  Although, I don't think it's bad writing.  Personally, I got the impression that while Morrigan thinks of herself as worldly, sophisticated and very intelligent - she's not any of those things.  Her actions (and her dialogues) show her to be, instead, shallow, rigidly selfish, provinicial and completely out of her depth when it comes to dealing with the problem of the Blight.  I remember laughing at her during my first play-through when, in Lothering, her idea of strategy was to go to Denerim and kill Loghain.  And I think this split, between what Morrigan thinks she is and what she really is, is intentional. 

I like the idea of her character, but she can be very annoying to play with.  I'd love tell her to take a hike but for the role she plays in the end game. 

See, you understand Morrigan a bit more than most. She was raised by an inhuman monster that honestly didn't care about her at all (well, didn't care about anything other than her body). This means she has severe emotional and sociological problems. Which to me makes her fun to have around, but I'm not about to take her advice on anything.

[Hamarabi2006]

Recidiva wrote...

It is, isn't it?  Hardened Alistair is easier to deal with plotwise, but I'm afraid I'm an incurable romantic who believes that love is a true gift not to be forsaken and all that stuff.

Yes, I can wield a sword and kill things and all that, but that just ripped the whole heart, and motivation out of it for me.

So I cried for a while after the shock wore off and I cursed the ancestors of whatever writer couldn't come up wtih something better for me.

But in the end to get anything resembling a "true love" ending where stuff doesn't completely fall apart, I have to be a guy.  That way I can sacrifice myself and Alistair looks good in his armor and makes a pretty speech and I get the ending I intended.  I was SO MAD when I discovered there was no possible way to have Alistair in love with me and sacrifice myself.  Even if the romance is over and he dumped me and avoided my gaze through the following nasty bits.  So not only do I have a star-crossed and screwed romance, but now I'm going to be aware that I'm the only reason why the King is dead?  Oh GREAT!  That's just great.  You guys suck.

And alas, having him sleep with Morrigan is just nightmare-inducing and not an option as far as happy endings go either.

Actually, if you don't take Alistair with you to fight the Arch Demon in the Final Onslaught, you can sacrifice yourself and then you get the best sad ending.  Alistair gives a speech at the funeral that is well worth listening to.  Or you could take Morrigan's offer, then neither you or Alistair has to die.  The only way for your character to be queen and have a happy ending with Alistair is to be Human Noble or start as a Human Noble, save, then respec your character's class with the console.  And of course, take Morrigan's offer which sucks.

Modifié par Hamarabi2006, 28 novembre 2009 - 11:24 .

[Hamarabi2006]

red8x wrote...

The problem with Morrigan, as with the other characters, is that while there was characterization (i.e. the characters had a background and plausible motivations) there was no character development.  She was essentially the same at the end as when we first meet her. 

She has some throwaway lines about regret but if she truly felt regret then there should have been some change to her character.

Also, if a character were truly fleshed out properly there shouldn't be a question as to whether they are good or evil.  And before I draw out the moral relativsts into a war of semantics by evil I mean a 'bad person.'

Personally, I think she is well written enough to know that she is not a good person.  She is a bad person.  She's the kind of person that would watch a person drown because she finds it impractical to try and save them.
   

Exactly!  Morrigan never grew as a person or she WAS indeed a bad person all along.

Modifié par Hamarabi2006, 28 novembre 2009 - 11:34 .

[andysdead]

i get the feeling that Morrigan's isolation from the outside world has caused her to develop what is essentially psychopathy, in that she cares nothing for the consequences of her actions in regard to the people they affect and will do whatever it is within her desire to do. In other words, she is basically the opposite of empathetic.



This attitude seems to become modified if she develops a friendship with a "good" PC.

[menasure]

i'd say it is just a matter of "natural selection" for morrigan. she can't stand it when you help "weaker species" like simple peasants or village population and at that point in the story ... i can not say i blame her really because it is a questionable situation to turn against an without a doubt powerful enemy when there is at that point no reason to believe that you will at least get something in return. as far as she's concerned the castle is already fallen. and in fact she's even wright about that lol.
sten displays a similar line of thinking btw although he is more focussed on a one enemy one battle principle. you are be able to get most of their disapproval points back btw by the choices you make even when you decide to support redcliffe.

Modifié par menasure, 28 novembre 2009 - 11:36 .

[tmp7704]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Yes, but your four armies aren't sufficient to fight off the Blight, you NEED the Ferelden army (which imply getting rid of Logahin).
And considering Loghain already destroyed one army that was fighting the Blight, you just can NOT have him on your back while you take on the Blight.
Either way, you HAVE to dispose of him, and in a way that leave both your forces and his undamaged.

I think it's something that we cannot tell for sure, actually. That is, since the game does not leave us choice in this matter there is no way to tell if the extra troops were really so crucial in the final result.

In any case the whole Loghain business struck me as extremely foolish -- after all, you are risking everything on the gamble that somehow you can get the regent of the country taken out of the picture without him trying to use his military force to crush you once you willingly show up on his doorstep, and this in turn hinges entirely on expectation he's going to play by the rules... the man who already shown he has no qualms about breaking these rules as he saw fit for the higher goal. It really made very little sense in the end things worked out the way they did. And the "plan" was way beyond the stupid people accuse Morrigan of.

[Recidiva]

Actually, if you don't take Alistair with you to fight the Arch Demon in the Final Onslaught, you can sacrifice yourself and then you get the best sad ending.  Alistair gives a speech at the funeral that is well worth listening to.  Or you could take Morrigan's offer, then neither you or Alistair has to die.  The only way for your character to be queen and have a happy ending with Alistair is to be Human Noble or start as a Human Noble, save, then respec your character's class with the console.  And of course, take Morrigan's offer which sucks.

Yeah, I know.  It just also rips the heart out of fighting side by side, doesn't it?  Or coming to a mutual decision as a team?  I'll get my eulogy.  I just made a guy and that means Alistair will let me die.  It smacks a bit of sexism on top of his racism and classism...but oh well.  It's romantic as all hell and most guys I've talked to are entirely insulted by the idea of letting their woman fall if they had a chance to prevent it.  But why don't I get to feel the same way about my guy?

[Ahisgewaya]

Hamarabi2006 wrote...

red8x wrote...

The problem with Morrigan, as with the other characters, is that while there was characterization (i.e. the characters had a background and plausible motivations) there was no character development.  She was essentially the same at the end as when we first meet her. 

She has some throwaway lines about regret but if she truly felt regret then there should have been some change to her character.

Also, if a character were truly fleshed out properly there shouldn't be a question as to whether they are good or evil.  And before I draw out the moral relativsts into a war of semantics by evil I mean a 'bad person.'

Personally, I think she is well written enough to know that she is not a good person.  She is a bad person.  She's the kind of person that would watch a person drown because she finds it impractical to try and save them.
   

Exactly!  Morrigan never grew as a person

This really annoyed me about Morrigan to tell you the truth. Everything she does makes sense from the perspective that she is quite unstable. This being the case, you should be able to give her some much needed psychoanalyzing and counselling if your cunning and willpower are high enough. Not being able to help her reach a catharsis was quite dissapointing.

[Drunkencelt]

doubledeviant wrote...

I don't understand Morrigan, and I don't understand the developer rationale for the limited fashion in which the player can interact with Morrigan.

For example (one of many instances that I could cite):

I agreed to aid Bann Teagan because:

a) He expresses support for the Grey Wardens and opposition to Loghain. = Natural Ally
If saved, Redcliffe could provide soldiers and supplies to the army. = Valuable Resources

Morrigan complains and disapproves (-5).  She'd rather I let Redcliffe perish (losing allies and resources) and assumes that I've acted out of compassion or some other motivation of which she doesn't approve.  There is no option to persuade her that my motivations are anything other than altruistic.  In contrast, Leliana can often be persuaded to accept dubious acts for the sake of the "greater good".

This seems to me to be bad writing (unless she's a Darkspawn in disguise... She does have yellow eyes... but that would so obvious as to be poor writing nonetheless).  Given the goal (raise an army to stop the Blight), what does Morrigan expect me to do?  Is she Chaotic Stupid?  Hell-bent on being Evil with a capital E without regard to what is reasonable and advantageous?

Share your thoughts, but:  I've completed about 3/4 of the game, so no endgame spoilers please!

Romance morrigan, read all her lines, and then come back and discuss. Redcliff does not perish if you chose not to waste valueable time/resources saving a child that should of been put down. She and half your party do not agree with running around to save a situation that should of never got this far. Stop and think about it. Why should you ignore the greater threat, to save some demonic spawn cause the mother made a stupid stupid choice? Sten and other people wil give you the same disaproval rating.

Leliana on the other hand is full of contradictions and bad writing. I honestly don't think they even finished her romance in time for gold.

[MassEffect762]

Just hurry up and announce Morrigans expansion already bioware. This character is a bad case of blue balls that needs resolution.



You'll get your $$$ and we'll get our damn answers.

[Hamarabi2006]

Recidiva wrote...

Yeah, I know.  It just also rips the heart out of fighting side by side, doesn't it?  Or coming to a mutual decision as a team?  I'll get my eulogy.  I just made a guy and that means Alistair will let me die.  It smacks a bit of sexism on top of his racism and classism...but oh well.  It's romantic as all hell and most guys I've talked to are entirely insulted by the idea of letting their woman fall if they had a chance to prevent it.  But why don't I get to feel the same way about my guy?

I agree. It would have been better to take Alistair with and maybe have the PC trip him or knock him down so that she could sacrifice herself.  Then he holds her lifeless body in his arms while displaying his emotional devastation.  That would have been a much more gratifying ending to a female PC that chose not to take Morrigan's offer.

[Drunkencelt]

Recidiva wrote...

red8x wrote...

The problem with Morrigan, as with the other characters, is that while there was characterization (i.e. the characters had a background and plausible motivations) there was no character development.  She was essentially the same at the end as when we first meet her. 

She has some throwaway lines about regret but if she truly felt regret then there should have been some change to her character.

Also, if a character were truly fleshed out properly there shouldn't be a question as to whether they are good or evil.  And before I draw out the moral relativsts into a war of semantics by evil I mean a 'bad person.'

Personally, I think she is well written enough to know that she is not a good person.  She is a bad person.  She's the kind of person that would watch a person drown because she finds it impractical to try and save them.
   

Yes, and there's no "hardening" or in her case "softening" aspect to the game that you can run through like you can with Alistair or Leliana.  No nuance that's going to change in any playthrough.  All she's got is an approval slider.
Frankly, Morrigan has little replay or tinker value.  Nothing you can do will really have any effect.
She's well written as a narcissist though.  That's what they're like.  They'll telll you what they want and if you do it, they like you.  They don't care what you want, and if you tell them what that is, they won't like you.  Simple.

She isn't a narcissist at all. Infact they're several moments where you can/sway influence her decisions or the outlook on the world. Just as much as you can with Leliane. Infact, she has more options than a simple 1 quest hardening. I think most people aren't really paying attention and just writing her off.

[menasure]

mm funny how some people are not able to think rationally instead of emotionally and end up blaming characters for their own views and visions on a story. do you blame a lion for eating a prey? i say it has much to do with survival (like in living all your life in the wilds) instead of wright or wrong

Modifié par menasure, 28 novembre 2009 - 11:45 .

[IPerrin]

tmp7704 wrote...

I think it's something that we cannot tell for sure, actually. That is, since the game does not leave us choice in this matter there is no way to tell if the extra troops were really so crucial in the final result.

In any case the whole Loghain business struck me as extremely foolish -- after all, you are risking everything on the gamble that somehow you can get the regent of the country taken out of the picture without him trying to use his military force to crush you once you willingly show up on his doorstep, and this in turn hinges entirely on expectation he's going to play by the rules... the man who already shown he has no qualms about breaking these rules as he saw fit for the higher goal. It really made very little sense in the end things worked out the way they did. And the "plan" was way beyond the stupid people accuse Morrigan of.

  Arl Eamon's plan or Morrigan's?   They show a scene where Logain makes a somewhat public speech, how am I supposed to know the first time through that I wont get a chance to assasinate him? This is a medieval setting, they dont have my picture all over the news.  there are posters and drawings that I can lie my way around.  there is evidence in lothering from one of Arl Eamon's knights that Redcliff might not be the best direction to go.