885 réponses à ce sujet

[Hamarabi2006]

Drunkencelt wrote...

You clearly never even played the game past Lothering with her in your party. Did you even talk to her at camp?

Oh yes.  I talked to her every chance I got so that I could try to improve the approval rating.  I kept hoping to see some growth in her character.  However, every time I talked to her she was a complete wench all the way to the end.  

I would never be RL friends with someone like Morrigan no matter how cute I thought she was.  She's a selfish mean skank plain as day.

[Drunkencelt]

I think its the opposite. Too many Lelaine(who is the most retarded character in the game) and Allister fanbois who are too close minded to consider Morrigan is anything else.



Either way, Morrigan is a love hate thing. People will feel one way another about her either way.



I don't understand the evil murderer plotline, since she never murdered anyone in the whole plotline.

[MassEffect762]

Drunkencelt: more power to you I guess. Morrigan is one retarded chick.



Heres hoping for anwers in the sequel.

[Cousken]

Hahah i laughed my ass off when i saw the topic of this post It's so acruate. Indeed i find her to be unresonable at many times... but i don't think it's bad writing, her line of reasoning is very appropriate for someone who grew up in a forest by a mother that is less than well meaning, to say the least without spoiling too much.

[Hamarabi2006]

KyoZ wrote...

Good and Evil is subjective to the beholder I'm afraid.

Loghain wasn't evil. He did all of that stuff because he thought it was the right thing to do. He retreated at Ostagar because he believed that the battle would be lost, and him staying there to get slaughtered would be a waste. He slave traded to get money for his army to fight the Darkspawn.

Only to a delusional psychopath that does not know right from wrong.  To everyone else, what he did was evil.

[Cousken]

Hahah i laughed my ass off when i saw the topic of this post It's so acruate. Indeed i find her to be unresonable at many times... but i don't think it's bad writing, her line of reasoning is very appropriate for someone who grew up in a forest by a mother that is less than well meaning, to say the least without spoiling too much.

[KyoZ]

Hamarabi2006 wrote...

KyoZ wrote...

Good and Evil is subjective to the beholder I'm afraid.

Loghain wasn't evil. He did all of that stuff because he thought it was the right thing to do. He retreated at Ostagar because he believed that the battle would be lost, and him staying there to get slaughtered would be a waste. He slave traded to get money for his army to fight the Darkspawn.

Only to a delusional psychopath that does not know right from wrong.  To everyone else, what he did was evil.

Wanting the best for your people no matter what the cost is evil? Interesting.

I really hate the terms good and evil. People arent one dimensional enough to fit into either one so easily.

[Drunkencelt]

Wanting the best for your people no matter the cost isn't evil.



Coming up with the stradegy then watching as your King and the Wardens get butchered in a fight you never intended to engage in is.

[Hamarabi2006]

KyoZ wrote...

Hamarabi2006 wrote...

KyoZ wrote...

Good and Evil is subjective to the beholder I'm afraid.

Loghain wasn't evil. He did all of that stuff because he thought it was the right thing to do. He retreated at Ostagar because he believed that the battle would be lost, and him staying there to get slaughtered would be a waste. He slave traded to get money for his army to fight the Darkspawn.

Only to a delusional psychopath that does not know right from wrong.  To everyone else, what he did was evil.

Wanting the best for your people no matter what the cost is evil? Interesting.

I really hate the terms good and evil. People arent one dimensional enough to fit into either one so easily.

Did you actually just say that? WOW!  zoom over your head!

[SupidSeep]

I believe evil is often linked with selfishness. Most evil people are committed to seeing things their way and are indifferent to others' view or suffering cause by their actions. They would step on others merely for their own enjoyment or gain.



The more sophisticated 'evil' people IMO would exhibit some intelligence on when to step on others. One of my favourite villians from Forgotten Realms is the assassin Artemis Entreri, who despite his vocation does not go around killing left and right. IMO this is due to them weighing the potential gains of their actions. Entreri is unlikely to kill a mere passerby whom he meets without some practical gain to be made, unless the passerby made himself a threat (or when Entreri is severely wounded and needs to leech health with his vampiric dagger...)



Actually, I don't really consider Loghain to be outright evil; he seems more stupid than evil. He has a goal to protect Feraldon, but he went about it in such a counterproductive manner that he gains no respect from me. At least Prince Bhelan of Ozammar knows how to play the politics game (when playing the Dwarf Noble origin, I felt like applauding when I realise the setup just before the whole thing came down).



Frankly, I was glad to execute Loghain the Loghead - he may be a tactical genius, but he should have left the politics to his daughter - and I do not have any sympathy for wanna-be-politicians too stupid to play the game right. He let his hatred of Orlais go to his head, he messed up big time, a lot of people died and suffered needlessly for his stupidity, and he had it coming.

Modifié par SupidSeep, 29 novembre 2009 - 02:10 .

[Exile Isan]

The one thing that bugs me about Morrigan is that she does not realize that living alone in the wild is as much a prison, or cage, as the Circle Tower is to the mages living there. Albeit the wilds are a larger cage, but a cage nonetheless.

[DariusKalera]

Actually, I don't really consider Loghain to be outright evil; he seems more stupid than evil. He has a goal to protect Feraldon, but he went about it in such a counterproductive manner that he gains no respect from me. At least Prince Bhelan of Ozammar knows how to play the politics game (when playing the Dwarf Noble origin, I felt like applauding when I realise the setup just before the whole thing came down).

Frankly, I was glad to execute Loghain the Loghead - he may be a tactical genius, but he should have left the politics to his daughter - and I do not have any sympathy for wanna-be-politicians too stupid to play the game right. He let his hatred of Orlais go to his head, he messed up big time, a lot of people died and suffered needlessly for his stupidity, and he had it coming.

I agree with the part about him not knowing politics, he was a soldier, not a politician and failed at it.  I kept him alive though because, even though he was damaged goods, his command ability, and the fact that the commoners still looked to him as a hero were too powerful to pass up and would do more good than killing him.

As for Morrigan, I never got an "evil" vibe from her.  Annoying, yes, but not to the extent Leliana was.  I would definetly call her chaotic, but not evil. 

[IPerrin]

Exile Isan wrote...

The one thing that bugs me about Morrigan is that she does not realize that living alone in the wild is as much a prison, or cage, as the Circle Tower is to the mages living there. Albeit the wilds are a larger cage, but a cage nonetheless.

   I could as soon call the earth a cage.  Morrigan talks about leaving the wilds on occasion, whereas the mages are locked in.

[kotorfan04]

To me it seems rather simple, Morrigan has only one purpose, to ensure that the archdemon is slain and that certain key events happens before the demon dies, saving Redcliffe Village wasn't really necessary, and if you ask Morrigan about her thoughts on what should be done, she recommends facing the problem head on.

[Recidiva]

I agree with the part about him not knowing politics, he was a soldier, not a politician and failed at it.  I kept him alive though because, even though he was damaged goods, his command ability, and the fact that the commoners still looked to him as a hero were too powerful to pass up and would do more good than killing him.

As for Morrigan, I never got an "evil" vibe from her.  Annoying, yes, but not to the extent Leliana was.  I would definetly call her chaotic, but not evil. 

I think she's just unlawful.  Like a teenager who is rebelling against everything.  Not that she isn't sometimes right, but she wants Sten out of his cage and Jowan out of his cage despite any of the consequences.

I certainly resent her for knowing something specific about the nature of Grey Wardens and not sharing it or even finding out if I knew or cluing me in.  There's one very specific bit of dialogue that can be triggered in Lothering that gave me a "HEY!" moment.   Something like:

"Tell me Alistair, if you were called upon to choose between ending the Blight and saving someone the woman you loved, what would be your choice?"
"That's a ridiculous question."
"And I have my answer."

She knows from the beginning that she's going to nail a Warden to the wall, literally.  She doesn't care who.  Nothing you do alters her course.  What she's going to do with the child is certainly not in any way to be construed as "good motherhood" or she'd have hung out with the only friends she had in the world to help support her entry into the world of the "giving a damn."  She disappears if you don't do things her way, making her incredibly selfish and the party crippled if it relied on her.  She values power over law and human life one for one.

All the argumetns about "not knowing better" only apply to Dog.  That's only the real character that's allowed to never deviate from a certain set of behaviors, because he's a dog.  She's a human being.  That makes her responsible for her choices.  Many of which can't be "relatived" out of existence as if she had no choice. 

[Akka le Vil]

kotorfan04 wrote...

To me it seems rather simple, Morrigan has only one purpose, to ensure that the archdemon is slain and that certain key events happens before the demon dies, saving Redcliffe Village wasn't really necessary, and if you ask Morrigan about her thoughts on what should be done, she recommends facing the problem head on.

And even that single purpose, she manage to actually completely screw it.
If she was halfway NOT a retard, she would perhaps try to wonder "hey, I'm going to need to get laid with one of these two guys at some time in the future. I should perhaps have them on my good side".
And instead of playing two-faces "I'm just your friend and wish the best for you", she seems to purposedly try to antagonize Alistair and constantly steps on your toes.

If it isn't stupid, I don't know what it is.

[Exile Isan]

IPerrin wrote...
   I could as soon call the earth a cage.  Morrigan talks about leaving the wilds on occasion, whereas the mages are locked in.

And even in leaving the wilds she is still a prisoner of them. Talk to her about the things she didn't know about the outside world, how to interact with people, how to eat at a table, etc. These things make her a prison of the wilds, and of Flemeth for that matter. More so, IMHO, than the mages of the Circle. And the mages of the Tower can leave if they are high enough ranking. Wynne for example joins your group, without a templar to watch over her(Alistair doesn't count).

[Drunkencelt]

Exile Isan wrote...

IPerrin wrote...
   I could as soon call the earth a cage.  Morrigan talks about leaving the wilds on occasion, whereas the mages are locked in.

And even in leaving the wilds she is still a prisoner of them. Talk to her about the things she didn't know about the outside world, how to interact with people, how to eat at a table, etc. These things make her a prison of the wilds, and of Flemeth for that matter. More so, IMHO, than the mages of the Circle. And the mages of the Tower can leave if they are high enough ranking. Wynne for example joins your group, without a templar to watch over her(Alistair doesn't count).

I think that is reaching. She always had the freedom to go when and where she chosed. She got to experience things, through magic, that the chantry would deem a justifiable reason to kill. One does tend to miss out on various things and she knows that, but she still appreciates where she came from. This is no where close to the same cage the sheep in the tower allow themselves to be cast in.

[Lucy Glitter]

I like Morrigan. Especially when she is nice to me.

[Exile Isan]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

I like Morrigan. Especially when she is nice to me.

Heh, me too. Even if I did want to throttle her sometimes.

[IPerrin]

If you can assume the stories Morrigan tells are true, then she had no trouble operating when out of her element(the wilds). Lying to the guard about being a witch for example. acting innocent in front of the right people. As far as I know, if you were to turn down Wynne's help she would remain locked in? The tower does have to honor your treaty after all.



Am I a prisoner of my house because I choose to live in it? Morrigan lives in the wilds by her choice. Most mages dont get that choice.

[Axterix]

KyoZ wrote...

Wanting the best for your people no matter what the cost is evil? Interesting.

I really hate the terms good and evil. People arent one dimensional enough to fit into either one so easily.

Wanting good though doesn't change the evil nature of certain acts.  Evil is evil.

Now, I agree, people, are a bit harder to judge, as they are a mix of good and bad.  An evil dictator can still be a loving father.  The head of a charity might well abuse his kids.  But people rarely believe themselves to be evil.  They'll justify their actions one way or another.

Loghain I'd say is amoral.  Overall, he's the type of guy who takes to a cause and does whatever he believes necessary for the cause.  Makes it very easy for him to do evil acts.  That amorality is what makes him a natural choice to be a warden really.  But it is also the type of person who is capable of some of the greatest evil ever seen.  A cause and a willingness to see it through.

Differs quite a bit from Morrigan.  She's selfish, doesn't play with others.  She might do evil, but she's unlikely to inspire others to follow along.  No real cause there, no ability to get others to fully commit to her and her cause.  Overall, she has a lot smaller potential to cause harm than Loghain, at least during the time of our story.

But, anyway, yeah, Loghain's hatred of Orlais, combined with his pride leading him to believe only he can save the kingdom, does make him evil for that bit of the story.  Though that is in part because we don't know what Orlais would actually do if they got into the country.  If, for example,we had some proof that they planned to invade, that Leliana's former master was in town for more than just dealing with a wayward former employee, well, that would go a long way to make Loghain seem more redeemable.

Modifié par Axterix, 29 novembre 2009 - 02:57 .

[Niten Ryu]

I like "chaotic stupid" characters and usually my 2nd run on any game is with that kind of player character. I think I failed to do that in Dragon Age as game allows such choices only from time to time but Morrigan agreed with all of 'em (I don't think I got even one negative reaction from her). One could argue that Morrigan is as close to "chaotic stupid" person as Dragon Age allow.



Might makes right and delusions of grandeur are key features of the "chaotic stupid" personality. Your character can do anything (including very bad choices that are clearly not in his best interest) but still belive that because of your superiority you can get away with it.



Morrigan suggest that we should just storm the capital and kill Loghain and not bother with this alliance crap. If it would have been possible (well, you can go to capital but not to kill Loghain), my character would have chosen that option.

[gotthammer]

Niten Ryu wrote...
Morrigan suggest that we should just storm the capital and kill Loghain and not bother with this alliance crap. If it would have been possible (well, you can go to capital but not to kill Loghain), my character would have chosen that option.

I really wish that you could have taken action in regard to that suggestion. I mean, it's not entirely impossible to assassinate someone in a city/castle, yes? Hard? Yes, but possible.

[MassEffect762]

gotthammer wrote...

Niten Ryu wrote...
Morrigan suggest that we should just storm the capital and kill Loghain and not bother with this alliance crap. If it would have been possible (well, you can go to capital but not to kill Loghain), my character would have chosen that option.

I really wish that you could have taken action in regard to that suggestion. I mean, it's not entirely impossible to assassinate someone in a city/castle, yes? Hard? Yes, but possible.

I'm sure I could take them ALL but then again I cheat. <_<