885 réponses à ce sujet

[Driveninhifi]

I think the problem with Morrigan isn't that she isn't developed - it's that her development has no impact on the story. There's too much of Morrigan the character, and Morrigan the plot device - and the stereotypical angry version of her doesn't make sense depending on how much you've talked to her.

Her backstory and the relationship the PC has with her (whether love or just friendship) is actually quite compelling. However, that's all tossed out at the end, for the most part. The voice acting really hurts the story at the end, since it's almost totally the same writing/acting whether you didn't talk to her at all or whether you were a lover (The switch between loving Morrigan and angry Morrigan is hilariously jarring in the ritual conversation). It may not be (probably wasn't) feasible to record entirely different dialogue for her, but it would feel a whole lot more genuine, I think.

Now, this doesn't touch on the other issues with the ending (duty not being part of her known character, not being able to convince her to bring the PC along, etc) - but that's a whole different argument.



Still, I have to say it was a good try and I'd love to see games where your development of the characters actually has some impact on the story. Alistair actually DOES in this game, which makes Morrigan feel all the more out of place.

[doubledeviant]

Drunkencelt wrote...

doubledeviant wrote...
snip

Romance morrigan, read all her lines, and then come back and discuss.

Why would I want to romance a total b****?

Redcliff does not perish if you chose not to waste valueable time/resources saving a child that should of been put down. She and half your party do not agree with running around to save a situation that should of never got this far. Stop and think about it. Why should you ignore the greater threat, to save some demonic spawn cause the mother made a stupid stupid choice? Sten and other people wil give you the same disaproval rating.

a) You seem confused.  Your character isn't aware of Connor or his situation at the time that Bann Teagan asks for your help.

Play the game.  Redcliffe DOES perish if you refuse to aid Bann Teagan.

[doubledeviant]

MassEffect762 wrote...

Too many Fanboys, Too many unanswered questions, Morrigan too retarded.

QFT

[KalosCast]

I think a lot of people are forgetting that Morrigan doesn't HAVE social skills, she grew up far and away from people, and the mere act of entering a town was emotionally overwhelming.

[Akka le Vil]

IPerrin wrote...

If you can assume the stories Morrigan tells are true, then she had no trouble operating when out of her element(the wilds). Lying to the guard about being a witch for example. acting innocent in front of the right people.

Seems that the Wilds were what powered these skills, because she surely completely lost them once she was in my party.

[Drunkencelt]

doubledeviant wrote...

Drunkencelt wrote...

doubledeviant wrote...
snip

Romance morrigan, read all her lines, and then come back and discuss.

Why would I want to romance a total b****?

Redcliff does not perish if you chose not to waste valueable time/resources saving a child that should of been put down. She and half your party do not agree with running around to save a situation that should of never got this far. Stop and think about it. Why should you ignore the greater threat, to save some demonic spawn cause the mother made a stupid stupid choice? Sten and other people wil give you the same disaproval rating.

a) You seem confused.  Your character isn't aware of Connor or his situation at the time that Bann Teagan asks for your help.

Play the game.  Redcliffe DOES perish if you refuse to aid Bann Teagan.

Without even reading all of her lines, romancing or friend, your viewpoint is completely misinformed. Which means you prolly don't know what your talking about and why are you even posting?

Redcliff doesn't perrish if you don't save Connor. Play the game past this point and see. You also become aware of the situation the second Isole apears outdoors asking for him to return "alone".

Modifié par Drunkencelt, 29 novembre 2009 - 09:17 .

[doubledeviant]

Drunkencelt wrote...

Without even reading all of her lines, romancing or friend, your viewpoint is completely misinformed. Which means you prolly don't know what your talking about and why are you even posting?

I am attempting to befriend Morrigan.  You said "romance".

Redcliff doesn't perrish if you don't save Connor. Play the game past this point and see. You also become aware of the situation the second Isole apears outdoors asking for him to return "alone".

I never said that it did.  Reread my original post.  I am discussing Bann Teagan and the decision to defend Redcliffe.  If you refuse to aid Bann Teagan, Redcliffe perishes.  Try it if you don't believe me.

[Volourn]

Morrigan is awesome. She is nowhere enar being shallow as some claim she is. Poeple points out that she likes 'shiny' things; but her 3 approval raiisng gifts are a mirror reminding her of her childhood and 2 quests items she needs to save herself from her so called mother.



She also does have no problem approving you saving people if you give her good reasons why. She wnats you to set Jowan free despite not gaining a benefit from it plus when I saved Connor and his mother, she didn't dissaprove. There are quite a few situations where she either gvies approval or no minues when you do the good thing. Remember, she hates the Mage Circle for good reason - THEY WANT HER DEAD. Why should she try to save them when if they had the chance they would kill her in aheart beat.,



Her interaction in the romance shows her depth as well as she is confused when starts actually feeling for you as it is no longer about justs ex. In fact, she calls you selfish if you push the issue, and you suffer major disapproval.



And, she does learn and grow. The girl learns to appreicate your friendship as the game goes along including giving sweet speeches before the final push. btw, even goody toe shoes Wynne points out the change in Morrigan. Early on in the romance, Wynne does a MAJOR lecture about how Morirgan doens't care about you, how bad the romance is, etc., etc. Yet, later on, she apologizes for having in doubts and that she can see that Morrigan actually does care for you. So, if another character - and one that hates Morrigan btw - can see this, that should say a lot.



Of course she gets angry when you tell her no about the ritual because she - like you btw - is very focused on her mission. Any means neccessary right? It's not liek you aren't getting anything out of it. Morirgan even tells you it's a risk and you simply have to trust her. It's bittersuite, and she even feels bad about pushing the issue if she has high approval.





GO MORRIGAN GO!

[gotthammer]

doubledeviant wrote...
If you refuse to aid Bann Teagan, Redcliffe perishes.  Try it if you don't believe me.

Hmm. Is that really the case? (haven't tried) If so, is there an alternative to Arl Eamon/Bann Teagan? IMHO, it would be nice if you can somehow unite the other Arls/Banns without relying on any single one of them...

[Malificis]

May write an academic style character analysis for Morrigan in the near future because she is the most complex character ive ever seen in an rpg or any game. would be ~1000 words. would anyone be interested in reading this? wrote something like it but compressed on page 12 or 13 of this thread.

Modifié par Malificis, 29 novembre 2009 - 11:00 .

[gotthammer]

Malificis wrote...

would anyone be interested in reading this?

As long as it's coherent and objective, I normally don't mind reading 'walls o' text'.

[UnAffectedFiddle]

Whats odd is other characters allow for you to put forward your actual reasons for going through with an action while Morrigan your stuck with letting her be all preachy. Bann Teagan is the uncle of the now deceased King. His political support alone is a stepping stone for power, why can she not see this?

If you help save the village they would also be in your good graces with cheaper prices, food, items, miltiary help etc. Its like the option for dealing with the kid, I cant fathom the option to do him in because of the crippling effects it would have on the Arl. His wife, sure cause her stupidity resulte din so many deaths and while it would hurt, not so much as having a future ties to the circle but also to the father.

By not helping them, you basically suggest writing off the Arl because you clearly plan on tackling this army that spills out each night by yourself. Its like her idea to just rock up and kill Loghain...yeah, um, awesome plan for building an army and actually surviving.

It's also the complete opposite of her stories of deception and manipulation. She expects you to be obvious and stupid about it. Sure, lets kill the entire Circle of the Magi because a small army of mages allowed to unleash their power and act independently isnt as useful as a now purposeless and bored army of Templars who will hunt down and kill any Mage they can. Its ok, they arent required to guard the tower anymore so having them able to go around en masse tracking apostates is brilliant!

She dosent even clarify to Gregoir her comments afterwards yet if you tried a diplomatic route she would complain. Its so damn frustrating. Like that kid that says they are hardcore and will beat down anyone who gets in their way but when crunch time comes, cries and runs away.

BTW I dont remember the Circle ever out for Morrigans blood, in fact Irving seems quite keen to expand the study of magic and lets some leeway in. The Templars, who work for the Chantry oppressing ALL mages, are the ones who ar ehunting her but she prefers to help, and then mentions afterwards Mages shouldnt be controlled like this /sigh.

Modifié par UnAffectedFiddle, 29 novembre 2009 - 11:23 .

[Malificis]

UnAffectedFiddle wrote...

Whats odd is other characters allow for you to put forward your actual reasons for going through with an action while Morrigan your stuck with letting her be all preachy. Bann Teagan is the uncle of the now deceased King. His political support alone is a stepping stone for power, why can she not see this?

If you help save the village they would also be in your good graces with cheaper prices, food, items, miltiary help etc. Its like the option for dealing with the kid, I cant fathom the option to do him in because of the crippling effects it would have on the Arl. His wife, sure cause her stupidity resulte din so many deaths and while it would hurt, not so much as having a future ties to the circle but also to the father.

By not helping them, you basically suggest writing off the Arl because you clearly plan on tackling this army that spills out each night by yourself. Its like her idea to just rock up and kill Loghain...yeah, um, awesome plan for building an army and actually surviving.

It's also the complete opposite of her stories of deception and manipulation. She expects you to be obvious and stupid about it. Sure, lets kill the entire Circle of the Magi because a small army of mages allowed to unleash their power and act independently isnt as useful as a now purposeless and bored army of Templars who will hunt down and kill any Mage they can. Its ok, they arent required to guard the tower anymore so having them able to go around en masse tracking apostates is brilliant!

She dosent even clarify to Gregoir her comments afterwards yet if you tried a diplomatic route she would complain. Its so damn frustrating. Like that kid that says they are hardcore and will beat down anyone who gets in their way but when crunch time comes, cries and runs away.

BTW I dont remember the Circle ever out for Morrigans blood, in fact Irving seems quite keen to expand the study of magic and lets some leeway in. The Templars, who work for the Chantry oppressing ALL mages, are the ones who ar ehunting her but she prefers to help, and then mentions afterwards Mages shouldnt be controlled like this /sigh.

You display an embarrassing lack of understanding. 
will keep this short -
1) Morrigan grew up in a swamp with an evil demi-god. She has known nothing else for her entire life. Not society not anything, hence she is massively repressed in terms of knowledge of politics, society and social dealings. Does not understand this village issue or politics surrounding it - merely sees it as help people and waste time doing important thing as she sees it in saving Aemon or help them and risk death. These are characters in a fictional world - they dont know you can load game and redo things if you die.

2) Morrigan is used to comfort and an easy life due to her patron, Flemeth. She does not see the difficulty in things because things have never been particularly hard - Flemeth COULD probably just walk into Denerim and kill Loghain - and this is how Morrigan has been taught to be behave, and the ONLY method of behaviour she has ever learnt. She isnt as powerful as Flemeth but the reasoning is identical, understandably.

3) (")The Mages are locked within? Fitting.(") - Morrigan at Tower.
Total anathema to her way of life with flemeth - being enclosed in a building with no freedom. She sees the mages as having given up their freedom and allowing templar dominance thus resenting them maybe even hating them for not fighting back thus allowing them to persecute her and Flemeth. It is irrelevant whether they could or not - as I have explained, such things do not factor into Morrigan's mode of thought as she has lived with an all powerful supermage. She doesnt consider the fact that the templars would be free as she doesnt understand institutionalisation or their lyrium addiction - hence she would assume they would go elsewhere and forget hunting apostates, and if she hypothetically realised that they could continue, she would assume she would be safe due to Flemeth's protection, and later, yours.

4) Helping people would mean going against her policy of isolation and her own superiority complex. "don't get close to anyone without a really really good reason" is Morrigan's main mindset. Coupled with lack of social knowledge all her actions can be explained to a basic level.

---
2nd Year Psychology - King's London

Modifié par Malificis, 29 novembre 2009 - 11:42 .

[doubledeviant]

gotthammer wrote...

doubledeviant wrote...
If you refuse to aid Bann Teagan, Redcliffe perishes.  Try it if you don't believe me.

Hmm. Is that really the case? (haven't tried) If so, is there an alternative to Arl Eamon/Bann Teagan? IMHO, it would be nice if you can somehow unite the other Arls/Banns without relying on any single one of them...

Yes.  You can enter the castle after the slaughter to proceed with the quest.

Also:

Morrigan disapproves of actions/decisions but often fails to share her rationale or offer a viable alternative.  In general, her line is something along the lines of "Good deeds? Bah!"  Walls text erected by her fans to defend her actions and explain what she *might* have in mind do not change the fact that she is presented as a total b**** and idiot in-game.  In most situations, Morrigan doesn't communicate with the player, and the player can't communicate with her (share motives, Persuade checks, etc).  Bioware fails to convey the character, or the character is simply Chaotic Stupid and worthless.

Modifié par doubledeviant, 29 novembre 2009 - 12:00 .

[The Angry One]

Volourn wrote...

She also does have no problem approving you saving people if you give her good reasons why. She wnats you to set Jowan free despite not gaining a benefit from it

Which merely exposes her character as inconsistantly written along with being obnoxious and stupid.

plus when I saved Connor and his mother, she didn't dissaprove.

Well PRAISE JEEZUS, Morrigan does not criticise one good action!

There are quite a few situations where she either gvies approval or no minues when you do the good thing. Remember, she hates the Mage Circle for good reason - THEY WANT HER DEAD. Why should she try to save them when if they had the chance they would kill her in aheart beat.,

The Chantry want her dead. The Circle has nevere hunted her. She hates the Circle simply because they haven't arbitrarily freed themselves from under the Templar's watch despite being in this position their entire lives. Ironically, for all of the Morrigan defender's arguments about Morrigan's upbringing and "oh she had no choice it's all Flemeth's fault poor Morrigan!", Morrigan herself accepts no such "excuses" and pre-judges all Circle mages as weak.

Her interaction in the romance shows her depth as well as she is confused when starts actually feeling for you as it is no longer about justs ex. In fact, she calls you selfish if you push the issue, and you suffer major disapproval.

That's called being an attention seeking wench. You think I haven't seen her type before? Manipulating men into drooling over her by playing hard to get *after* playing the ****.

And, she does learn and grow. The girl learns to appreicate your friendship as the game goes along including giving sweet speeches before the final push. btw, even goody toe shoes Wynne points out the change in Morrigan. Early on in the romance, Wynne does a MAJOR lecture about how Morirgan doens't care about you, how bad the romance is, etc., etc. Yet, later on, she apologizes for having in doubts and that she can see that Morrigan actually does care for you. So, if another character - and one that hates Morrigan btw - can see this, that should say a lot.

Wynne does that with any romance, and she apologises more because it isn't her place to butt in on your relationships in the first place. Morrigan change? Ha!

Of course she gets angry when you tell her no about the ritual because she - like you btw - is very focused on her mission. Any means neccessary right? It's not liek you aren't getting anything out of it. Morirgan even tells you it's a risk and you simply have to trust her. It's bittersuite, and she even feels bad about pushing the issue if she has high approval.


GO MORRIGAN GO!

She gets angry because it's been her plan since day one and everything she's done has led up to that.
If you think she cares for your PC, congratulations, you've been successfully manipulated by a poorly written obnoxious 1-digit IQ would-be-a-Mary-Sue-but-isn't-because-she's-so-incredibly-stupid evil witch.

Wouldn't be so irritating if BioWare itself didn't share the fanboy's infatuation with this cardboard lunatic.

[Malificis]

doubledeviant wrote...

gotthammer wrote...

doubledeviant wrote...
If you refuse to aid Bann Teagan, Redcliffe perishes.  Try it if you don't believe me.

Hmm. Is that really the case? (haven't tried) If so, is there an alternative to Arl Eamon/Bann Teagan? IMHO, it would be nice if you can somehow unite the other Arls/Banns without relying on any single one of them...

Yes.  You can enter the castle after the slaughter to proceed with the quest.

Also:

Morrigan disapproves of actions/decisions but often fails to share her rationale or offer a viable alternative.  In general, her line is something along the lines of "Good deeds? Bah!"  Walls text erected by her fans to defend her actions and explain what she *might* have in mind do not change the fact that she is presented as a total b**** and idiot in-game.  In most situations, Morrigan doesn't communicate with the player, and the player can't communicate with her (share motives, Persuade checks, etc).  Bioware fails to convey the character, or the character is simply Chaotic Stupid and worthless.

1) Sigh. No. You simply dont read into the character whatsoever or reasons for in this case, Morrigan's actions. It is not a defense in the way you imply. Bioware convey the character brilliantly but you need to understand their method of conveyance. This method is complex and requires thought because if it was too obvious it would spoil the portrayal of the character.

2) Her actions and psychology are perfectly understandable for how she has lived, as is her lack of communication. She has known one person all her life and this person is simply using her to possess later. I also wrote about why persuade checks would be ridiculous and counter productive to character portrayal with Morrigan. Read my last three posts.

3) Her "rationale" is not thought out because she doesnt understand society etc etc. She has no "rationale" as such except put herself in the most comfortable position possible and hopefully youll sort out the archdemon issue, with her help in fighting.

But dont worry, it's fine. I dont look down on you for being confused and unperceptive. Its a difficult issue with a lot of layers.

---
Psychology 2nd year, King's London

[Malificis]

The Angry One wrote...

Volourn wrote...

She also does have no problem approving you saving people if you give her good reasons why. She wnats you to set Jowan free despite not gaining a benefit from it

Which merely exposes her character as inconsistantly written along with being obnoxious and stupid.

plus when I saved Connor and his mother, she didn't dissaprove.

Well PRAISE JEEZUS, Morrigan does not criticise one good action!

There are quite a few situations where she either gvies approval or no minues when you do the good thing. Remember, she hates the Mage Circle for good reason - THEY WANT HER DEAD. Why should she try to save them when if they had the chance they would kill her in aheart beat.,

The Chantry want her dead. The Circle has nevere hunted her. She hates the Circle simply because they haven't arbitrarily freed themselves from under the Templar's watch despite being in this position their entire lives. Ironically, for all of the Morrigan defender's arguments about Morrigan's upbringing and "oh she had no choice it's all Flemeth's fault poor Morrigan!", Morrigan herself accepts no such "excuses" and pre-judges all Circle mages as weak.

Her interaction in the romance shows her depth as well as she is confused when starts actually feeling for you as it is no longer about justs ex. In fact, she calls you selfish if you push the issue, and you suffer major disapproval.

That's called being an attention seeking wench. You think I haven't seen her type before? Manipulating men into drooling over her by playing hard to get *after* playing the ****.

And, she does learn and grow. The girl learns to appreicate your friendship as the game goes along including giving sweet speeches before the final push. btw, even goody toe shoes Wynne points out the change in Morrigan. Early on in the romance, Wynne does a MAJOR lecture about how Morirgan doens't care about you, how bad the romance is, etc., etc. Yet, later on, she apologizes for having in doubts and that she can see that Morrigan actually does care for you. So, if another character - and one that hates Morrigan btw - can see this, that should say a lot.

Wynne does that with any romance, and she apologises more because it isn't her place to butt in on your relationships in the first place. Morrigan change? Ha!

Of course she gets angry when you tell her no about the ritual because she - like you btw - is very focused on her mission. Any means neccessary right? It's not liek you aren't getting anything out of it. Morirgan even tells you it's a risk and you simply have to trust her. It's bittersuite, and she even feels bad about pushing the issue if she has high approval.


GO MORRIGAN GO!

She gets angry because it's been her plan since day one and everything she's done has led up to that.
If you think she cares for your PC, congratulations, you've been successfully manipulated by a poorly written obnoxious 1-digit IQ would-be-a-Mary-Sue-but-isn't-because-she's-so-incredibly-stupid evil witch.

Wouldn't be so irritating if BioWare itself didn't share the fanboy's infatuation with this cardboard lunatic.

It would be unfair to judge your understanding of thought and character development on your spelling, no? I think so, but it's hard when i see such things as "bittersuite".
Read my 2nd post on this thread, the long one, if you can read words longer than 8 letters.
1) She hates the mages for being essentially complicit in the templars strength/dominance and ability to hunt her and flemeth.
2) Flemeth has taught her nothing of understanding the weakness of others. Flemeth has taught her that this way of thinking is fine, and it helps you get powerful like her. Power is everything for flemeth and therefore Morrigan too.
3) The saving of Jowan is highly interesting. Morrigan's repressed side comes through here! Important moment. She wants him freed because she sees him as a victim of aggression for his power, just like her. She cannot bring herself to condemn him even though it would be easier to let him rot because she sees too much of herself and previous situation in him. "Pity from the Diva" as it were.
4) Manipulation is the means to an end - she cares nothing for you until later on at which point she is highly scared of what that means, and her only way of thinking is being eroded by you. Understandably this would be mind destroying. Think: All you have known is being partly flawed. She initially sees it as random fun/sex. She doesnt understand relationships, she has known only one being her entire life! Complex social interaction? Not possible for Morrigan. Hence it is scary. Would take forever to explain but read my 2nd post as i said...
5) It's ok, you don't have to be able to understand this. I think David was being slightly ambitious if he thought most people would understand the character. She is like a tragic character from Renaissance English literature. Not easy.

---
Psychology 2nd Year, King's London

Modifié par Malificis, 29 novembre 2009 - 12:25 .

[The Angry One]

Malificis wrote...

1) Sigh. No. You simply dont read into the character whatsoever or
reasons for in this case, Morrigan's actions. It is not a defense in
the way you imply. Bioware convey the character brilliantly but you
need to understand their method of conveyance. This method is complex
and requires thought because if it was too obvious it would spoil the
portrayal of the character.

HERE I SHALL REVEAL THE COMPLEX THOUGHT PATTERN REQUIRED TO FULLY UNDERSTAND MORRIGAN:

"Mmmm... boobies."

2) Her actions and psychology are perfectly understandable for how she has lived, as is her lack of communication. She has known one person all her life and this person is simply using her to possess later. I also wrote about why persuade checks would be ridiculous and counter productive to character portrayal with Morrigan. Read my last three posts.

It's great that Morrigan can use her past to justify anything, especially when she will never accept this as a justification for anyone else.

3) Her "rationale" is not thought out because she doesnt understand society etc etc. She has no "rationale" as such except put herself in the most comfortable position possible and hopefully youll sort out the archdemon issue, with her help in fighting.

What you don't get is she has no rationale. She speaks without thinking. And that's what kills her character. She never considers a damn thing, for good or bad. She simply struts about loudly declaring "I DUN HAV TEIM FOR THIS!", never stopping to listen, and *think* about the situation.
To hell with her upbringing by the way. Children raised by feral dogs have more capacity for logic and forethought than Morrigan.

[Malificis]

The Angry One wrote...

Malificis wrote...

1) Sigh. No. You simply dont read into the character whatsoever or
reasons for in this case, Morrigan's actions. It is not a defense in
the way you imply. Bioware convey the character brilliantly but you
need to understand their method of conveyance. This method is complex
and requires thought because if it was too obvious it would spoil the
portrayal of the character.

HERE I SHALL REVEAL THE COMPLEX THOUGHT PATTERN REQUIRED TO FULLY UNDERSTAND MORRIGAN:

"Mmmm... boobies."

2) Her actions and psychology are perfectly understandable for how she has lived, as is her lack of communication. She has known one person all her life and this person is simply using her to possess later. I also wrote about why persuade checks would be ridiculous and counter productive to character portrayal with Morrigan. Read my last three posts.

It's great that Morrigan can use her past to justify anything, especially when she will never accept this as a justification for anyone else.

3) Her "rationale" is not thought out because she doesnt understand society etc etc. She has no "rationale" as such except put herself in the most comfortable position possible and hopefully youll sort out the archdemon issue, with her help in fighting.

What you don't get is she has no rationale. She speaks without thinking. And that's what kills her character. She never considers a damn thing, for good or bad. She simply struts about loudly declaring "I DUN HAV TEIM FOR THIS!", never stopping to listen, and *think* about the situation.
To hell with her upbringing by the way. Children raised by feral dogs have more capacity for logic and forethought than Morrigan.

This says a lot about you.
To quote myself: "She has no 'rationale' " and you immediately type "What you don't get is she has no rationale". Good job.
I won't waste my time argueing with imbeciles. Go back to your community college and read winnie the poo.

----
Psychology 2nd Year, King's London

Modifié par Malificis, 29 novembre 2009 - 12:25 .

[Akka le Vil]

doubledeviant wrote...

Morrigan disapproves of actions/decisions but often fails to share her rationale or offer a viable alternative.  In general, her line is something along the lines of "Good deeds? Bah!"  Walls text erected by her fans to defend her actions and explain what she *might* have in mind do not change the fact that she is presented as a total b**** and idiot in-game.  In most situations, Morrigan doesn't communicate with the player, and the player can't communicate with her (share motives, Persuade checks, etc).  Bioware fails to convey the character, or the character is simply Chaotic Stupid and worthless.

This.

[The Angry One]

Malificis wrote...

This says a lot about you.
To quote myself: "She has no 'rationale' " and you immediately type "What you don't get is she has no rationale". Good job.
I won't waste my time argueing with imbeciles. Go back to your community college and read winnie the poo.

Or it's because you wrote a self-contradictory sentence, first explaining her 'rationale' then claiming she has none.
I chose to ignore your stupidity as I felt generous, but since a third-rate armchair psychologist like you just *has* to pretend superiority, I'll just dismiss you as a fool and move along.

Mm I should start painting a little Morrigan symbol for every one of her fanboys I've shot down, fighter ace style.

Modifié par The Angry One, 29 novembre 2009 - 12:29 .

[gotthammer]

*grabs popcorn...or a substitute*



I love the thread/topic title, btw (not that I necessarily agree, mind )

[Malificis]

The Angry One wrote...

Malificis wrote...

This says a lot about you.
To quote myself: "She has no 'rationale' " and you immediately type "What you don't get is she has no rationale". Good job.
I won't waste my time argueing with imbeciles. Go back to your community college and read winnie the poo.

Or it's because you wrote a self-contradictory sentence, first explaining her 'rationale' then claiming she has none.
I chose to ignore your stupidity as I felt generous, but since a third-rate armchair psychologist like you just *has* to pretend superiority, I'll just dismiss you as a fool and move along.

Mm I should start painting a little Morrigan symbol for every one of her fanboys I've shot down, fighter ace style.

1) No...rationale in the way the person i was quoting meant it. "rationale" is not a one dimensional word. I assume you meant rationale in the IMPLICIT way of thinking and taking action. Morrigan never learnt to do this. Hence the insane plan of go and kill Loghain. I meant rationale in the way of EXPLICIT ie what she actually does which is live on a mix of ephemeral feelings (hence repeatedly drawn similarities with animals. arguably, to an extent she IS just a very intelligent animal) and a wish to achieve a certain ends with the child. Read Social Psychology by Carol Brown and "The Return of the Native" by Thomas Hardy with a view to Eustacia Vye, the main character. They'll be in your local library.
2) KCL is one of the best universities in the world, but  I dont expect you to know that ;s
--
Psychology 2nd year, King's London

Modifié par Malificis, 29 novembre 2009 - 12:41 .

[UnAffectedFiddle]

[quote]Malificis wrote...

You display an embarrassing lack of understanding. 
will keep this short -
1) Morrigan grew up in a swamp with an evil demi-god. She has known nothing else for her entire life. Not society not anything, hence she is massively repressed in terms of knowledge of politics, society and social dealings. Does not understand this village issue or politics surrounding it - merely sees it as help people and waste time doing important thing as she sees it in saving Aemon or help them and risk death. These are characters in a fictional world - they dont know you can load game and redo things if you die.
[/quote]

She likes to pipe up shes been taught deception, manipulation and all these wonderful thing sby her mother. She mentions batting her eyelids and acting innocent and coy to have the guards side with her against a Chasind man. She has made trips into small villages as well and has watched them and some of the social interactions still confuse her such as physical contact and so on.

I can get the lack of social understanding, but her actions seem a total contradiction of her friendship/romance line. Its like Morrigan is replaced by a doppleganger during these scenes. She must have plenty of educaiton by flemeth anyway as indicated by her knowledge of quite a few things. Listen to her baiting Alistair or arguing with other party members. There she shows a clever, deep and cynical personality with hints of manipulative agendas.
[quote]
2) Morrigan is used to comfort and an easy life due to her patron, Flemeth. She does not see the difficulty in things because things have never been particularly hard - Flemeth COULD probably just walk into Denerim and kill Loghain - and this is how Morrigan has been taught to be behave, and the ONLY method of behaviour she has ever learnt. She isnt as powerful as Flemeth but the reasoning is identical, understandably.[/quote]

Yet by all accounts her childhood was quite hard being hunted and simply having flemeth as her mother. Frequently hit and talked down to in an attempt to harden her to life as well as generally being left to fend for herself. Any attempts at seeking simple pleasures in life were ruthlessly crushed under foot as being "childish and weak". Flemeth quite clearly shows she is cunning, canny and dangerous. In fact I would not see her as ever advicing something so silly becaue she seems to grasp the sheer stupidity of mindless slaughter. Flemeth is after all, the one who pushes you to seek out the treaties and face up to your responsibilities and even understands the Blight transcends good and evil.
[quote]
3) (")The Mages are locked within? Fitting.(") - Morrigan at Tower.
Total anathema to her way of life with flemeth - being enclosed in a building with no freedom. She sees the mages as having given up their freedom and allowing templar dominance thus resenting them maybe even hating them for not fighting back thus allowing them to persecute her and Flemeth. It is irrelevant whether they could or not - as I have explained, such things do not factor into Morrigan's mode of thought as she has lived with an all powerful supermage. She doesnt consider the fact that the templars would be free as she doesnt understand institutionalisation or their lyrium addiction - hence she would assume they would go elsewhere and forget hunting apostates, and if she hypothetically realised that they could continue, she would assume she would be safe due to Flemeth's protection, and later, yours. [/quote]

Again and again her baiting of Alistair suggests she has a keen knowledge of what Templars are and how they operate. She and her mother have been baiting them for years. She seems quite capable of realising the Circle and Templars are not buddies, I believe she even makes mention to the Templars essentially being the mages Jailers.

She then expects you to save Jowan, a weak willed, whiny man. He has never done anything successful by himself and sits in jail wallowing in self pity. I kinda get she relates to atonement (Sten for example), but again its jarring when any decision that involves atonement that the PC makes is met with scorn.

Here is the irony, Morrigan has no freedom. Flemeth has made most of her decisions, guided her actions and even sends her with the Wardens. Not once does Morrigan ever simply strike out for independence or "freedom". In fact shes so scared she asks you to kill her mother. How can she possibly turn about and claim people asking you for help are "weak" after that?
 
Flemeth never seems to act as a super mage, in fact Morrigan isnt even sure she believes half of what they say about Flemeth and mentions that Flemeth hardly elaborates on anything. So the belief that Flemeth would nanny Morrigan seems ludicrous. Flemeth would also not want a future body for habitation if it was weak enough to crumble before any opposition so Morrigan wouldnt be able to rely on Flemeth all the time. That would be a sign of weakness.
[quote]
4) Helping people would mean going against her policy of isolation and her own superiority complex. "don't get close to anyone without a really really good reason" is Morrigan's main mindset. Coupled with lack of social knowledge all her actions can be explained to a basic level. [/quote]
[/quote]

Yet she does help Sten (understandable, recognises his self jailing as a form of disicpline) and Jowan for example. The two character are miles apart, one being self sufficient, strong and matter of fact while another is an idealist, simpering failure.

I like Morrigan but she seems to flip flop between two people sometimes. I realise she is a basic play on mother nature, evidenced by her specialisation and original spell selection. Entropy to favour chaos of nature and shapeshifting to focus on a more animal intent and logic to her actions (survival of the fittest). The bear does not care for social graces, it will kill to ensure its own safety and that of its young and the weakest animal in the pack is a liability and so on. Of course much of nature also works in harmony to achieve a form of symbiosis but whatever.

Her knowledge of Templar dogma, intiation and tactics shows she has a clear understanding of the organisaiton. She comprehends and has learnt about the Chantry from Flemeth. She hasnt been taught the frivolous social graces because they arent necessary but time and tme again its shown flemeth has groomed and taught her a LOT about manipulation, history, religion, magic and people.

Its quite obvious she has a superiority complex, but the lack of being able to express your motivations to her as you can with other characters (game mechanic to rationalise otherwise "goody" choices) makes her frustrating to deal with. All you get to show her is the face value of your action, not the intent.

[The Angry One]

Malificis wrote...

1) No...rationale in the way the person i was quoting meant it. "rationale" is not a one dimensional word. I assume you meant rationale in the IMPLICIT way of thinking and taking action. Morrigan never learnt to do this. Hence the insane plan of go and kill Loghain. I meant rationale in the way of EXPLICIT ie what she actually does which is live on a mix of ephemeral feelings (hence repeatedly drawn similarities with animals. arguably, to an extent she IS just a very intelligent animal) and a wish to achieve a certain ends with the child. Read Social Psychology by Carol Brown and "The Return of the Native" by Thomas Hardy with a view to Eustacia Vye, the main character. They'll be in your local library.

Which all boils down to a very simple solution: If Morrigan has no concept of what she's experiencing and thus no true basis for an opinion, she should shut the hell up. Or at least give us the option to tell her to shut the hell up.

2) KCL is one of the best universities in the world, but  I dont expect you to know that ;s

I think a true psychologist would have something to say about someone who continually attempts to flaunt irrelevant credentials and attendance to prestigious schools on public forums, don't you?