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[The Angry One]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The game terms deal with small squad combat.  In the war effort, those 12 militiamen are inconsequential.

So are the 50 odd troops you get for the final battle. I'm speaking of scale here.

And again, you can't use future information in current conversations.  The idea of the two being connected sounds ridiculous, especially since Eamon was sick before Redcliffe had any undead problems.

And yet, they are connected. And Morrigan's a mage, she should be familiar with weird things like that occuring.

No one says that the castle is occupied by a hostile force.  They say that monsters come from it.

..... you... I.... how...

It's no wonder you don't consider Morrigan stupid then, that's all I'll say.

[Recidiva]

She seems to be generally believe people who need help are too weak to be of any use, and hence not worth helping. Consider her comments in the mage tower.

And that's more idealistic and blind than Alistair at his dumbest.  Strategically there's TONS to be gained from either appearing to be weaker than you are, or being underestimated.  Sin of pride.   You'd think she, of all people wouldn't trust appearances, and wouldn't hesitate to use them to her own advantage.

Modifié par Recidiva, 28 novembre 2009 - 12:27 .

[Herr Uhl]

tmp7704 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

If Eamon weren't necessary, you could see why she thinks that Redcliffe is a lost cause.

For all the characters know he isn't necessary. He would make a convenient ally but that's it. The Wardens don't even have a treaty with him, he's just an extra idea that Alistair comes up with.

Yes, you should be able not to, but the situation becomes absurd since you do need him afterwards. Bad writing in this instance.

[The Capital Gaultier]

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The game terms deal with small squad combat.  In the war effort, those 12 militiamen are inconsequential.

So are the 50 odd troops you get for the final battle. I'm speaking of scale here.

And again, you can't use future information in current conversations.  The idea of the two being connected sounds ridiculous, especially since Eamon was sick before Redcliffe had any undead problems.

And yet, they are connected. And Morrigan's a mage, she should be familiar with weird things like that occuring.

No one says that the castle is occupied by a hostile force.  They say that monsters come from it.

..... you... I.... how...

It's no wonder you don't consider Morrigan stupid then, that's all I'll say.

Yeah, I see you're done trying to present a coherent argument.

Log off and chill out.

[Recidiva]

For all the characters know he isn't necessary. He would make a convenient ally but that's it. The Wardens don't even have a treaty with him, he's just an extra idea that Alistair comes up with.

That's not true.  Flemeth says "This Arl Eamon, elves, dwarves and humans sound like an army to me."
Alistair makes clear at Flemeth's hut that the Landsmeet is the only way short of murder to bring down Loghain and expose his crimes.  The only way to the Landsmeet is to have Arl Eamon do the talking AT the landsmeet, the only sympathetic, good man available.

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

Strategically there's TONS to be gained from either appearing to be weaker than you are, or being underestimated.  Sin of pride.   You'd think she, of all people wouldn't trust appearances, and wouldn't hesitate to use them to her own advantage.

I think she is perfectly aware people like the Redcliffe villagers or the mages in the tower aren't trying to trick you into thinking they're weaker they really are, but they are really in situation that overwhelms them. There's difference between deception and actually being weak, and with her experience at deception she's pretty good at telling one from the other.

[The Angry One]

As for Teagan being stupid in not helping you get to the castle first; he wants to save the village. Why should he be inclined to help you if you won't help him?

Yeah yeah, help Eamon. But again, why should he trust that you're going to help Eamon and not just go in to finish the job if you won't take one day out of your precious time to help Redcliffe?

[The Angry One]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Yeah, I see you're done trying to present a coherent argument.

Log off and chill out.

I'm done arguing with you. If you don't see the base illogic of "oh they come from the castle night after night, don't let anyone enter it but they don't have to occupy it!" then there's no point.

[tmp7704]

The Angry One wrote...

As for Teagan being stupid in not helping you get to the castle first; he wants to save the village. Why should he be inclined to help you if you won't help him?

Because the things which are about to hurt his precious village come out from the castle, so by striking at that source and eliminating it you remove the threat to village as well?

[The Capital Gaultier]

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Yeah, I see you're done trying to present a coherent argument.

Log off and chill out.

I'm done arguing with you. If you don't see the base illogic of "oh they come from the castle night after night, don't let anyone enter it but they don't have to occupy it!" then there's no point.

You have a very poor grasp of logic, and I feel sorry for you.

[Axterix]

Yeah, this particular situation has always annoyed me with both Sten and Morrigan.

The reason why is that it is evident that we need the guy in the castle.  And that there's no easy way into the castle.  The townspeople might know, but they aren't helping until after this night's attacks have been dealt with.

Since you need to get in and there' s no clear alternative, why do they get annoyed at you?  If it was obvious that someone had a magic key, then they might be annoyed because you just didn't kill that person and loot the key.  Or waited around until they were killed by undead, then loot the key.  Or you steal the key.  Or the ever popular threaten bodily harm route.

But you don't know about the passageway in the mill or the ring that opens it.  Even if you go into the mill, see the obvious trap door on the floor, you can't try it, nor can you ask about it.

If it was a sidequest, I could understand them being upset at wasting time.  But, as far as the characters know, it isn't and it is the only clear way to make progress on the main quest.  That might make them upset at the townspeople, but it shouldn't make them upset at you for taking the only clear route in this case towards being able to deal with the Blight.

[The Angry One]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

You have a very poor grasp of logic, and I feel sorry for you.

Concession accepted.

tmp7704 wrote...

Because the things which are about to
hurt his precious village come out from the castle, so by striking at
that source and eliminating it you remove the threat to village as
well?

Assuming it's that simple. Assuming they won't slaughter everyone while you're inside.

[The Capital Gaultier]

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

You have a very poor grasp of logic, and I feel sorry for you.

Concession accepted.

Trolling doesn't earn you points, and you feel empty after doing it.  You are a more pitiful person than I took you to be the first time.

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

That's not true.  Flemeth says "This Arl Eamon, elves, dwarves and humans sound like an army to me."
Alistair makes clear at Flemeth's hut that the Landsmeet is the only way short of murder to bring down Loghain and expose his crimes.  The only way to the Landsmeet is to have Arl Eamon do the talking AT the landsmeet, the only sympathetic, good man available.

I wouldn't really use Morrigan's mother as voice of reason in a thread which is about possible stupidity of the person the very Flemeth raised in her exact image.

Also, it is a difference between useful and necessary. Having Arl Eamon on your side (presuming he agrees to join you) would be a good thing. Having a Landsmeet and bringing Loghain down without a fight would be a good thing too. But neither is actually necessary in order to fight the Blight. These are just "best case" plans, and the military leaders know very well the plans are the first thing which doesn't survive the contact with the enemy. If Arl Eamon turns out to look like hopeless cause it is not unreasonable to write him off as such, and try to do with whatever remaining resources you have, instead rather than risk everything in hope that maybe things turn out all rainbow and kitten-like in the end.

[Recidiva]

I think she is perfectly aware people like the Redcliffe villagers or the mages in the tower aren't trying to trick you into thinking they're weaker they really are, but they are really in situation that overwhelms them. There's difference between deception and actually being weak, and with her experience at deception she's pretty good at telling one from the other.

She's a good character.  She's just a pain in the ass to drag through the game, complaining the whole way unless you take the easiest way out. 
I understand her siding with wiping out the mages, actually.  That one I get. 
I don't understand why she gets angry if you stop someone from profiteering, offer to save the Blacksmith's daughter or lots of other game choices that are really intended not to just "save someone" but in general...save and preserve human life.  AND show that you're capable of trust, mercy and having someone else's interests other than your own always in mind.  Grey Wardens are supposed to save humanity as a whole, what's the actual harm in saving a few individual humans?  I don't agree with her viewpoint that "all these cretins would do it if they could" or falling back on "survival of the fittest" as if it were always a matter of strength.  There's power in acts of grace, and being rich enough and strong enough to do more than expected is part of building a reputation and loyalty.  The entire point of the game, really.
Being insanely petty enough to resent giving five gold to two recently orphaned kids is ridiculous.

[DPSSOC]

The Angry One wrote...

Her morality shouldn't preclude helping people when it's convenient.
If she doesn't have the capacity to think beyond "EW! I am helping people." to "Hm, doing this now will help ME later" then she's an idiot, plain and simple.

It isn't "EW! I am helping people." really.  She's helping you isn't she and doesn't seem to begrudge the situation all that much.  Her problem, and she brings this up regularly, is that you're helping people she doesn't deem worthwhile.  She doesn't mind helping but that's not what she's being asked to do she's being asked to save people too weak to save themselves.

Think of it like this, you're carrying a table up a flight of stairs and while you could do it yourself it'd be easier with help, that's how things are with the Warden, he/she could stop the blight without Morrigan but it'll be easier with her help.

The villagers on the other hand are trying to carry a fridge up the stairs but it's too heavy for them to lift.  They then ask someone else to carry it by themselves while they offer neglible assistance.

[The Angry One]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Trolling doesn't earn you points, and you feel empty after doing it.  You are a more pitiful person than I took you to be the first time.

You made an illogical point, then instead of trying to explain yourself you resort to trolling, so yes. I take that as a concession. Don't like it? Tough.

[The Capital Gaultier]

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Trolling doesn't earn you points, and you feel empty after doing it.  You are a more pitiful person than I took you to be the first time.

You made an illogical point, then instead of trying to explain yourself you resort to trolling, so yes. I take that as a concession. Don't like it? Tough.

You take things much too personally.

Log off and chill out.

[tmp7704]

The Angry One wrote...

Assuming it's that simple. Assuming they won't slaughter everyone while you're inside.

I'd think once i'm inside they'll have their hands too full to pay attention to the outside. Plus, aren't they said to attack at night, leaving plenty time to attack them before that happens?

[The Angry One]

DPSSOC wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Her morality shouldn't preclude helping people when it's convenient.
If she doesn't have the capacity to think beyond "EW! I am helping people." to "Hm, doing this now will help ME later" then she's an idiot, plain and simple.

It isn't "EW! I am helping people." really.  She's helping you isn't she and doesn't seem to begrudge the situation all that much.  Her problem, and she brings this up regularly, is that you're helping people she doesn't deem worthwhile.  She doesn't mind helping but that's not what she's being asked to do she's being asked to save people too weak to save themselves.

Think of it like this, you're carrying a table up a flight of stairs and while you could do it yourself it'd be easier with help, that's how things are with the Warden, he/she could stop the blight without Morrigan but it'll be easier with her help.

The villagers on the other hand are trying to carry a fridge up the stairs but it's too heavy for them to lift.  They then ask someone else to carry it by themselves while they offer neglible assistance.

They're weak, but they're a means to an end. Helping them gains the gratitude of someone who *is* potentially useful, Bann Teagan.

[Poubo]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

doubledeviant wrote...

I don't understand Morrigan, and I don't understand the developer rationale for the limited fashion in which the player can interact with Morrigan.

For example (one of many instances that I could cite):

I agreed to aid Bann Teagan because:

a) He expresses support for the Grey Wardens and opposition to Loghain. = Natural Ally
If saved, Redcliffe could provide soldiers and supplies to the army. = Valuable Resources

As I explained in another topic - you're risking the lives of the last two Gray Wardens to save a handful of villagers. So, let's say the help of the Wardens makes a difference and the battle is won, but they both fall - which is a possible scenario for all that we know. What happens? The mentioned villagers get to live some months more, but after that all the Ferelden is devastated by the horde of darkspawn, since there are no more Wardens here and Alister already told you that foreign Wardens will come eventually, but it would be too late to save the country. Nice choice, really. If it was not a video game, would you take that risk? Do you think you have the right to risk THAT much?

P.S. Morrigan is Chaotic Neutral.

with that stance, why help the dwarves? the elves? anyone? what you going to do? 2 wardens vs the blight? Good call!

[The Angry One]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Trolling doesn't earn you points, and you feel empty after doing it.  You are a more pitiful person than I took you to be the first time.

You made an illogical point, then instead of trying to explain yourself you resort to trolling, so yes. I take that as a concession. Don't like it? Tough.

You take things much too personally.

Log off and chill out.

Nope I just laugh at the idea of "they come from somewhere and they protect it, but they don't live there lol!"

[The Angry One]

Poubo wrote...

with that stance, why help the dwarves? the elves? anyone? what you going to do? 2 wardens vs the blight? Good call!

Remember, this is the woman who's grand plan was marching into Denerim and attacking Loghain,

[The Angry One]

stupid double posts

Modifié par The Angry One, 28 novembre 2009 - 12:43 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Trolling doesn't earn you points, and you feel empty after doing it.  You are a more pitiful person than I took you to be the first time.

You made an illogical point, then instead of trying to explain yourself you resort to trolling, so yes. I take that as a concession. Don't like it? Tough.

You take things much too personally.

Log off and chill out.

Nope I just laugh at the idea of "they come from somewhere and they protect it, but they don't live there lol!"

You shouldn't, but I realize that you haven't looked at it logically.  What's been said to you is that a) monsters come from the castle and there has been no contact with anyone inside the castle for some time.  Unless you make a huge leap of faith, there is nothing to tell you that the castle is held and defended by anything.  Finding a way in and resolving the problem is the direct route.

Now log off and chill out.