885 réponses à ce sujet

[DaySeeker]

I think Morr is always manipulating and testing her hooks. "Will the warden do whatever I tell him?' is what I believe she is thinking in those strange circumstances, "To what extent will he go to achieve my affection?" Plus she knows much more about what is going on then she lets on, so I believe she is also impatient, "This is not getting me what I want and I have to wade tgrough all these insipid weaklings mewling about their circumstances and doing nothing about them." M has a plan and a goal, Leli does not, thus is easier to please, I believe.

[Malsumis]

The Angry One wrote...

She gets angry because it's been her plan since day one and everything she's done has led up to that.
If you think she cares for your PC, congratulations, you've been successfully manipulated by a poorly written obnoxious 1-digit IQ would-be-a-Mary-Sue-but-isn't-because-she's-so-incredibly-stupid evil witch.

Wouldn't be so irritating if BioWare itself didn't share the fanboy's infatuation with this cardboard lunatic.

She can't be both manipulative and stupid. Choose one or the other.  The fact that she inspires such hate from you and others would please the bio writers and proves that she is a well written character.

Modifié par Malsumis, 30 novembre 2009 - 01:51 .

[Driveninhifi]

Malificis wrote...

May write an academic style character analysis for Morrigan in the near future because she is the most complex character ive ever seen in an rpg or any game. would be ~1000 words. would anyone be interested in reading this? wrote something like it but compressed on page 12 or 13 of this thread.

She's interesting and compelling for sure. She's a good portrayal of someone who is insecure and unsure of themselves and hides it behind a facade of bravado - usually you see that in male characters and not female. She is developed well through the conversations you have with her and that feels very natural. She had what most would call a terrible childhood and grew up to be callous, but through her interactions with the PC she learns the value of love and friendship. It's actually quite a cliche character arc, though I don't mean that to diminish the character at all.
I wouldn't say she's the most complex character in this medium though. Torment's Nameless One has more to him, though he also isn't really just one character so the comparison isn't fair.
That said, I'd read an analysis if you wrote one 

[red8x]

Malsumis wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

She gets angry because it's been her plan since day one and everything she's done has led up to that.
If you think she cares for your PC, congratulations, you've been successfully manipulated by a poorly written obnoxious 1-digit IQ would-be-a-Mary-Sue-but-isn't-because-she's-so-incredibly-stupid evil witch.

Wouldn't be so irritating if BioWare itself didn't share the fanboy's infatuation with this cardboard lunatic.

She can't be both manipulative and stupid. Choose one or the other.  The fact that she inspires such hate from you and others would please the bio writers and proves that she is a well written character.

Cats and dogs can manipulate their owners and they don't have high IQs....

Modifié par red8x, 30 novembre 2009 - 01:59 .

[Maria Caliban]

Yes, she's chaotic stupid, but that's not bad writing.



There's no such thing as 'academic style' character analysis. Academia is everything from kindergarten to grad school and covers a diverse number of subjects. You might be referring to analyzing the Jungian archetype that Morrigan is part of; to how she indicative of popular notions of women and femininity; to how she compares to other BioWare female character or to femme fatales in film noir; or how the voice actor, character animations, and design convey her character.

[RocusPocus]

Poubo wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

doubledeviant wrote...

I don't understand Morrigan, and I don't understand the developer rationale for the limited fashion in which the player can interact with Morrigan.

For example (one of many instances that I could cite):

I agreed to aid Bann Teagan because:

a) He expresses support for the Grey Wardens and opposition to Loghain. = Natural Ally
If saved, Redcliffe could provide soldiers and supplies to the army. = Valuable Resources

As I explained in another topic - you're risking the lives of the last two Gray Wardens to save a handful of villagers. So, let's say the help of the Wardens makes a difference and the battle is won, but they both fall - which is a possible scenario for all that we know. What happens? The mentioned villagers get to live some months more, but after that all the Ferelden is devastated by the horde of darkspawn, since there are no more Wardens here and Alister already told you that foreign Wardens will come eventually, but it would be too late to save the country. Nice choice, really. If it was not a video game, would you take that risk? Do you think you have the right to risk THAT much?

P.S. Morrigan is Chaotic Neutral.

with that stance, why help the dwarves? the elves? anyone? what you going to do? 2 wardens vs the blight? Good call!

All the others you mentioned you had treaties promising the aid of an entire people, who would give you the support of their ARMIES, not poorly trained (if trained at all) militia men.

[Malsumis]

red8x wrote...

Malsumis wrote...

She can't be both manipulative and stupid. Choose one or the other.  The fact that she inspires such hate from you and others would please the bio writers and proves that she is a well written character.

Cats and dogs can manipulate their owners and they don't have high IQs....

Thats more of a statement about the owners then anything,,,,

[red8x]

Malsumis wrote...

red8x wrote...

Malsumis wrote...

She can't be both manipulative and stupid. Choose one or the other.  The fact that she inspires such hate from you and others would please the bio writers and proves that she is a well written character.

Cats and dogs can manipulate their owners and they don't have high IQs....

Thats more of a statement about the owners then anything,,,,

lol 

[UnAffectedFiddle]

[quote]Volourn wrote...

the Circle are scumbags who murder anyone who don't obey them and the chantry. The Circle is just a tool of the Chantry. Look at how quickly they wanted to murder Jowan simnply because he wanted to leave the circle and because OMG he may be ablood mage (of cours,e it doesn't help that he goes on to be an attempted murderer but that's a different story).[/quote]

But there was proof of him studying Blood Magic. If its shown that people inside the Circle are corrupted its hello Annulment, good night mages. What I DID like is how Irving, you know the leader of the Circle, turns it into a set up for the Templars to show their initiates are just as prone to corruption. Its his "**** you" to the Templars.

[quote]
The Circle makes a habit of helping Chantry and templars hunt down wild mages (ie. those not under their control) and execute them no matter what they are doing. Morrigan has every right to hate them because they wnat her dead simply because she exists outside the circle.[/quote]

I dont remember reading that mages help hunt down other mages. for the most part they arent even allowed outside the tower. Do you mean the Mage Collective group, who are apostates (technically) who post rewards to kill Maleficar that are giving them a bad name or harming their reputation?

By the way, Irving nor any Templa rin game (bar the insane fellow) show the slightest interest in Morrigan which is admittedly more a failure of writing. Wynne only attacks when its clear your following the apostates plan to eradicate her and the children.
[quote]
Why should she shed a single tear for these monsters? Espicially since they are so weak they basiclaly destory their own circle cause they can't control their magic? Neither Flemeth or Morrigan ever lose control of their magics. Nor is Morrigan a huge fan of abominations or demons or even blood magic (thoguh you can give her the specialty I think ).[/quote]

Flemeth...did you read the god dman story? Flemeth IS AN ABOMINATION, PRETTY MUCH LIKE ALL THE BLOOD MAGE SIN THE TOWER BECOME. She is possibly a more advanced form since she maintains some semblance of control but its rammed down your throat she failed at summoning a demon much like them. Morrigan is always happy when you let a possession happen (abominaiton or not) and she isnt naturally a Blood Mage simply because shes a Witch of the Wild. I highly doubt the magic of Blood would make her squeamish.

[quote]
Yeah, yeah. I get it. It's because of her boobies. And, no she is Mary Sue. Nor is she a stupid, evil witch. That's Wynne whose probably played a role and executing innocent mages simple because they work outside the circle. The Circle kidnaps children from their parents (with the chantry's help) for the main purpose of BRAINWASHING them. Afterall, that's what started the whole Connor mess.[/quote]
[/quote]

Um, if the Circle doesnt take the child in, its executed by the Chantry. Wynne never executes someone for different beliefs unless they are actively seeking to harm someone.

[quote]
Again, why should Morrigan shed a single tear for the destruction of an organization that WANTS HER DEAD SIMPLY BECAUSE SHE ISN'T ONE OF THEM. *shrug*

GO MORRIGAN GO![/quote]

I...but...you.../sigh.

You realise the Circle is practically held to ransom by the Chantry, who then enforces the right to make them tranquil to safeguard humanity, oh and luckily tranquilled Mages can work lyrium better than the dwarves for profit!

I dont know where you get the idea that the Chantry and Templars are friendly with the Circle. Apart form the total lack of writing regarding the hatred apart form statements. (that is to say, your never actually hounded by Templars and can enter Chantries who are friendly as ever to you).

[Skellimancer]

Just killed "Kitty" in the Stone Prisoner quest.



Morrigan Disapproves -3 for killing a demon. This is just retarded. Cant wait to boot the **** out of the camp once i get Wynne

[tmp7704]

Skellimancer wrote...

Morrigan Disapproves -3 for killing a demon. This is just retarded.

I think she disapproves wasting time on killing a demon which was well trapped, had nothing to do with the Blight and could've been just left there, not killing demons per se.

Modifié par tmp7704, 30 novembre 2009 - 03:46 .

[Dtelm]

Morrigan can be pretty stupid. For instance, when you first arrive in redcliff, and your discussing options with allistair. Alistair is like "Hey why dont we raise an army?" and starts suggesting how to do it.
++Intelligence.
If you ask morrigan, she's like. Why don't we just march into denerim and kill loghain?
Really...What are you going to do? March through denerim with a price on your head, walk up to the Royal Palace or Fort Drakon or wherever the hell he is and be like "hello? I'd like to see Loghain"

Recidiva wrote...
She's not chaotic and she's not neutral.  She prefers order (at least in her unmentionables) and she will never side with anybody other than herself and her goals.

I believe we are talking about alignment. Being chaotic is more than being random. And order isn't the opposite of chaotic in this sense, lawful is. She would probably be considered chaotic because she cares little for rules and probably has no qualms breaking her word.

Chaotic Stupid is ussally applied to would-be chaotic evil people that go about it a way that lacks any measure of intelligence and people are expected to just accept "Oh they are just evil". 

Modifié par Dtelm, 30 novembre 2009 - 04:00 .

[Akka le Vil]

tmp7704 wrote...

I think the alternative could be "honest about her opinions". She doesn't hide what she thinks of people, much like say, Sten doesn't. And they both come with very different perspective than the player, having grown in very different environment than Ferelden.

Really, i think the moment when we insult a character not only despite but because they show a trait which is generally considered a good thing, it's time to step back and consider perhaps we're no longer being objective in our judgement?

The problem being, she rant all the time about how manipulative she is and how easily men are manipulated and how she constantly uses it and...
... and she's supposed to be honest ?

If she's so prone and so (supposedly) able in the deception and manipulation, then why doesn't she actually practices it on the two targets of the entire REASON why she's risking her life and why she went in the first place ?
Does look very stupid for me.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 30 novembre 2009 - 09:00 .

[Akka le Vil]

Sidney wrote...

"Time" and "non-linear" don't work really well togther or at least thus far no one has done it well.

Must we say "Fallout" to counter every false preconception people have about RPG ?

Volourn wrote...

the Circle are [...] *shrug*

GO MORRIGAN GO!

No wonder you like Morrigan, you are just as simplistic and shallow than her in your reasoning.

Well, she seems in fact being "chaotic stupid" - and she's not alone.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 30 novembre 2009 - 09:00 .

[Lughsan35]

Akka le Vil wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

I think the alternative could be "honest about her opinions". She doesn't hide what she thinks of people, much like say, Sten doesn't. And they both come with very different perspective than the player, having grown in very different environment than Ferelden.

Really, i think the moment when we insult a character not only despite but because they show a trait which is generally considered a good thing, it's time to step back and consider perhaps we're no longer being objective in our judgement?

The problem being, she rant all the time about how manipulative she is and how easily men are manipulated and how she constantly uses it and...
... and she's supposed to be honest ?

If she's so prone and so (supposedly) able in the deception and manipulation, then why doesn't she actually practices it on the two targets of the entire REASON why she's risking her life and why she went in the first place ?
Does look very stupid for me.

For the most part she is horribly conflicted.

She and her mother have a plan for you two young templars...that plan as she later states, "Didn't account for me developing any feelings for you whatsoever,  I am having a hard time with this notion of 'friendship' and I have had a hard time seeing the value in other people at all, until you."



YOU are the Fly in her ointment.  YOU are disrupting her plans by showing her what compassion is, how people can be naughty or nice together...

Of Course she disapproves of everything you do...you are challenging her worldview.  To put it another way, your influence on her is much like convincing a ******-phobe that same sex encounters are enjoyable and fun and worthwhile....much of that time will be spent with said ******-phobe disagreeing with the ******...but in the end...

See?

[Akka le Vil]

Lughsan35 wrote...

For the most part she is horribly conflicted.

She and her mother have a plan for you two young templars...that plan as she later states, "Didn't account for me developing any feelings for you whatsoever,  I am having a hard time with this notion of 'friendship' and I have had a hard time seeing the value in other people at all, until you."



YOU are the Fly in her ointment.  YOU are disrupting her plans by showing her what compassion is, how people can be naughty or nice together...

Of Course she disapproves of everything you do...you are challenging her worldview.  To put it another way, your influence on her is much like convincing a ******-phobe that same sex encounters are enjoyable and fun and worthwhile....much of that time will be spent with said ******-phobe disagreeing with the ******...but in the end...

See?

What I see is that she's supposed to lay with either you or Alistair, she's supposed to be very good at manipulation, and she ends up antagonizing him and making her an unbearable b*tch for you.
Don't you see a logic problem here ?

And I'd like to remind you : not everyone romance her. Not only should she play coy and appreciative if she wants to be on your good side (if she had a positive IQ), but she has no reason to be all confused about you in the countless cases you do not care for her.

She's simply being either completely stupid or completely inconsistent (or both).

[tmp7704]

Akka le Vil wrote...

The problem being, she rant all the time about how manipulative she is and how easily men are manipulated and how she constantly uses it and...
... and she's supposed to be honest ?

Well, she doesn't hide from you how easily she could manipulate men, does she?

That talk with her comes slightly different across if your character is a woman (not as much in exact lines used i'd figure but rather in "spirit" if one can use such term) -- then Morrigan seems to just be bragging about how well she was able to do in a completely alien environment and doing the ages old "men are only thinking with their little heads" schtick. Given my alienage elf was also at that moment in environment very alien to her, and how she had her own views on intelligence of men... it just made the bonding tad bit easier.

On the subject of "she is dumb because she doesn't butter you up before the final ultimatum" ... i don't really think she has to. The choice she has to offer you is very simple -- your own life (and possibly life of person you love) at the price of reborn old god, one that isn't even going to be "evil" or anything. Given how she's raised with the belief one's own survival is the most important thing i don't think she even considers someone could turn down an offer like that. So she has no reason to be nice. And if your character makes a choice of this magnitude based on whether they personally like Morrigan or not ... they are too dumb themselves to be in position to criticize anyone for being stupid.

Modifié par tmp7704, 30 novembre 2009 - 03:07 .

[Akka le Vil]

tmp7704 wrote...
Well, she doesn't hide from you how easily she could manipulate men, does she?

She pretend she does, but I can't remember a single instance in the game where she actually does it.

On the subject of "she is dumb because she doesn't butter you up before the final ultimatum" ... i don't really think she has to. The choice she has to offer you is very simple -- your own life (and possibly life of person you love) at the price of reborn old god, one that isn't even going to be "evil" or anything. Given how she's raised with the belief one's own survival is the most important thing i don't think she even considers someone could turn down an offer like that. So she has no reason to be nice. And if your character makes a choice of this magnitude based on whether they personally like Morrigan or not ... they are too dumb themselves to be in position to criticize anyone for being stupid.

Paint me as unconvinced. Her whole mindset is apparently based on "do what you have to in order to get what you want", she endlessly talks about how she can obtain whatever she wants from men by being seductive, and still she doesn't even TRY this on either Grey Warden she travels with, while they are the ones that are the key of what she wants the most in life - and is risking her life about. That just seems ridiculous.
Additionnally, the choice may not be based on how we like Morrigan, but it's certainly based on how we trust her, and she constantly hint that she's totally unthrustworthy.

No really, she simply looks completely stupid here.

[Badpie]

The only incidence like where Morrigan being a bee-otch really irked me was when I gave the scarf back to Athras in the Dalish camp. She disapproved! Of what?! Me handing the scarf of a man's dead wife back to him?! Now you're just TRYING to be a jerk.

[sagevallant]

Morrigan will frown on you being overtly nice, and will approve of you doing cold-hearted things. Because this is how she acts. Just like Leliana giggling with glee when you go around saving kittens from trees; she likes that you help others, because she would help them.

[tmp7704]

Akka le Vil wrote...

still she doesn't even TRY this on either Grey Warden she travels with, while they are the ones that are the key of what she wants the most in life - and is risking her life about. That just seems ridiculous.

Well but again, why would she want to try? She only can get what she wants on the eve of fight with archdemon and if she doesn't believe any sane person could refuse an offer like that, why bother pretending she is something she isn't until that happens? There's nothing to gain from it, and you know her opinion on doing things which give no gain.

Additionnally, the choice may not be based on how we like Morrigan, but it's certainly based on how we trust her, and she constantly hint that she's totally unthrustworthy.

She constantly shows that she's a pragmatist concerned first and foremost with her own survival and/or goals. I didn't find it make her any more untrustworthy than the other characters  With the single exception of the Dog there's no real reason to trust any of them with your life*, if anything a number of them comes across as far more deceptive about their nature than Morrigan is.

It's the kind of paradox you get when a liar who tells you openly they lie can come across more straightforward and ironically trustworthy than the one who pretends to be a honest person.

*) Alistair can sort of make you think he's worth the trust but then he also has things he values higher and won't hesitate to pick them instead. The rest? Bunch of misfits, crooks and people plain posessed. Quite like your own character in number of origins.

Modifié par tmp7704, 30 novembre 2009 - 06:22 .

[Skellimancer]

So killing "Kitty" demon; Morrigan Disapproves-3

Killing Conner (possessed kid); Morrigan Approves +3



riiiiight

[tmp7704]

Kitty being an entirely optional side-quest, Connor being part of the main plotline and the most straightforward way to resolve the problem... yup.

[Skellimancer]

tmp7704 wrote...

Kitty being an entirely optional side-quest, Connor being part of the main plotline and the most straightforward way to resolve the problem... yup.

Stone Prisoner DLC Features;
Shale! a new companion!
New Items!
New areas!
Morrigan Disapproves -3!