885 réponses à ce sujet

[phordicus]

she's written as a lone predator. should really stop trying to apply pack mentality to her.

[Akka le Vil]

Malificis wrote...

Obviously wrong.
1 You can trust her all you like as long as she has a reason to help you, which she does.

Which means you can't trust her, because as her agenda is secret you can't know where her reason to help you will diverge. 
That's why people doesn't trust those who only think about themselves, you know ?

2 Doesn't matter if she is sent away. She would still come to you and offer you the ritual to save your life - most people who are being honest and playing their character as they would themselves would still take it so Morrigan gets what she wants. But more convenient to stay with you. She is totally reliant on the fact that she has the easiest route out for you to live on after the Ademon.

Actually it matters a lot, because if she's sent away it means you highly dislike her, and as such you're not likely to accept her offer.
And remember that the characters are supposed to be people ready to sacrifice themselves to fight the Darkspawns, so they are quite a bit more likely to accept death than average people.

Sure, she MAY be able to convince the PC regardless. But it sure makes her chances drop A LOT. If she's supposed to be used to manipulation, why antagonize and not be nice instead ? Much more efficient.

3 She can bait Alistair all she likes - the PC is obviously the one with the power, she quickly identifies Alistair as a simpering idiot. Indeed, he only becomes a leader when he requires vengeance over Loghain. It will not cause a problem for her to annoy Alistair.

Did you even consider that the PC can be a GIRL ? And as such Alistair the ONLY available Grey Warden ?

4 Read "The Prince" by Niccolo Machiavelli and/or "The Art of Political Manipulation" by W. H. Riker.

First, politics and interpersonal relations are very different.
Second, you don't know jack about what I've read, you know ?
Third, actually, Machiavelli encourages leader being liked by their people, and if not to be liked, to be feared. NOT to be hated - on the contrary, it's the worst situation a leader can be.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 30 novembre 2009 - 11:26 .

[RunCDFirst]

tmp7704 wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

Not true, some of us would have Loghain there to take the fall instead of ourselves.

Which works only until the point where Loghain holds the very same view and thinks it should be the other guy not him to take the fall... relying on the goodwill of that guy is hardly more sensible than relying on Morrigan telling you the truth.

He does that? He seemed rather adament on being the one to take the final blow.

[Akka le Vil]

tmp7704 wrote...

I suppose this may depend on how your playthrough goes. My character was friends with her so it made it much more convenient for her to ask me to convince Alistair (since Alistair generally does as told) than try to convince him personally. But if it came to it i have no problem picturing her seducing him directly instead, without even telling him there's anything more to it than just sex. In this sense, it's more of a game script issue to let the player make the decision and have impact on the outcome, than anything else.

I completely disagree on this. Alistair HATES her, and even to save his life he's reluctant and has to be firmly pushed by his best friend to bed her. I can't imagine Morrigan being able to convince him in any way - she even say so, though of course her word isn't necessarily what she thinks - but I'm pretty sure she was right on this one.

It must especially looks dumb if the PC is a girl. Morrigan seems to stack all chances AGAINST herself, honestly.

This is interesting part, actually. What happens if you do send her away earlier, does she still show up on that final night with her offer?

Don't know, I'll try this some day I think.
But I suppose she manages to sneak inside the castle and make the offer.

[tmp7704]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Actually it matters a lot, because if she's sent away it means you highly dislike her, and as such you're not likely to accept her offer.

Doesn't this come back to the concept letting personal like/dislike for Morrigan cloud your judgement wheter you save your own life by taking her offer... is silliness itself, much like cutting off one's nose to spite the face?

And remember that the characters are supposed to be people ready to sacrifice themselves to fight the Darkspawns, so they are quite a bit more likely to accept death than average people.

Not exactly... at least until the final reveal happens the characters are supposed to "do whatever it takes" which for many boils down strictly to sacrificing others -- see Loghain for example of this.

[tmp7704]

RunCDFirst wrote...

He does that? He seemed rather adament on being the one to take the final blow.

Does him being adamant about it take place before or after you decide what to do about Morrigan's offer? I didn't play that route long enough to find out myself.

[RunCDFirst]

tmp7704 wrote...
Does him being adamant about it take place before or after you decide what to do about Morrigan's offer? I didn't play that route long enough to find out myself.

Doesn't he say he should be the one to deliver the blow when Riordan tells you that a Gray Warden has to do it?
He's also rather adament when the Archdemon is down and ready to die... so after Morrigan. I guess he may not care if Morrigan sleeps with someone since it doesn't matter then.

[Malificis]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Malificis wrote...

2 Doesn't matter if she is sent away. She would still come to you and offer you the ritual to save your life - most people who are being honest and playing their character as they would themselves would still take it so Morrigan gets what she wants. But more convenient to stay with you. She is totally reliant on the fact that she has the easiest route out for you to live on after the Ademon.

Not true, some of us would have Loghain there to take the fall instead of ourselves.

she doesnt know that Loghain will join you when she acts as she does! bare in mind Loghain joins you VERY late.
If i was Morrigan and i saw Loghain join on the terms that he kill the archdemon, id immediately stop talking to the PC and throw myself at Loghain. If she didnt, itd destroy her plan by a crazy twist in events.
There is no way your character could know Loghain would join later either
It would be extremely likely that if she did know this (totally impossible to guess this, no matter who you are) she would be far nicer to you because she wouldnt have an unassailable advantage over you.

so that argument is invalid - relies completely on hindsight.

[Malificis]

double post.

Modifié par Malificis, 01 décembre 2009 - 12:47 .

[Malificis]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Malificis wrote...

Obviously wrong.
1 You can trust her all you like as long as she has a reason to help you, which she does.

Which means you can't trust her, because as her agenda is secret you can't know where her reason to help you will diverge. 
That's why people doesn't trust those who only think about themselves, you know ?

2 Doesn't matter if she is sent away. She would still come to you and offer you the ritual to save your life - most people who are being honest and playing their character as they would themselves would still take it so Morrigan gets what she wants. But more convenient to stay with you. She is totally reliant on the fact that she has the easiest route out for you to live on after the Ademon.

Actually it matters a lot, because if she's sent away it means you highly dislike her, and as such you're not likely to accept her offer.
And remember that the characters are supposed to be people ready to sacrifice themselves to fight the Darkspawns, so they are quite a bit more likely to accept death than average people.

Sure, she MAY be able to convince the PC regardless. But it sure makes her chances drop A LOT. If she's supposed to be used to manipulation, why antagonize and not be nice instead ? Much more efficient.

3 She can bait Alistair all she likes - the PC is obviously the one with the power, she quickly identifies Alistair as a simpering idiot. Indeed, he only becomes a leader when he requires vengeance over Loghain. It will not cause a problem for her to annoy Alistair.

Did you even consider that the PC can be a GIRL ? And as such Alistair the ONLY available Grey Warden ?

4 Read "The Prince" by Niccolo Machiavelli and/or "The Art of Political Manipulation" by W. H. Riker.

First, politics and interpersonal relations are very different.
Second, you don't know jack about what I've read, you know ?
Third, actually, Machiavelli encourages leader being liked by their people, and if not to be liked, to be feared. NOT to be hated - on the contrary, it's the worst situation a leader can be.

its obvious to anyone with a brain she needs something or she wouldnt be with you. you'll know if she gets it, thus you can stop trusting her.

she is basing your choice on her own method of thought (a result of arrogance and survivalism) that you will desperately want to spare your own life regardless of what you think of her. even on the grounds of sex - she doesnt see this as a sign of love, just fun. upbringing.

I was talking about this from the view of a male character romancing her, EXCLUSIVELY. Said this many times.

haha but it doesnt matter if you're hated when you hold that much of a trump card. a prince could always be assassinated no matter how many guards he had because those guards can turn on them. Morrigan needs not fear your hate - a prince always needs to fear the hate of his people.
if it came to a confrontation with her earlier in the game, she would most likely play that card and tell you outright.

[Malificis]

Akka le Vil wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

I suppose this may depend on how your playthrough goes. My character was friends with her so it made it much more convenient for her to ask me to convince Alistair (since Alistair generally does as told) than try to convince him personally. But if it came to it i have no problem picturing her seducing him directly instead, without even telling him there's anything more to it than just sex. In this sense, it's more of a game script issue to let the player make the decision and have impact on the outcome, than anything else.

I completely disagree on this. Alistair HATES her, and even to save his life he's reluctant and has to be firmly pushed by his best friend to bed her. I can't imagine Morrigan being able to convince him in any way - she even say so, though of course her word isn't necessarily what she thinks - but I'm pretty sure she was right on this one.

It must especially looks dumb if the PC is a girl. Morrigan seems to stack all chances AGAINST herself, honestly.

This is interesting part, actually. What happens if you do send her away earlier, does she still show up on that final night with her offer?

Don't know, I'll try this some day I think.
But I suppose she manages to sneak inside the castle and make the offer.

if she didnt sneak in and offer, it would be utterly ridiculous.
actually it would undermine the entire character and i would be very disappointed and confused.

from what ive read you have a point if the PC is a girl. we can put this down to laziness in terms of writing a different dialogue for her, i think. it would take an extraordinary amount of effort to be true to the character's persona, because she would undoubtedly have to be nice, or at least seduce alistair, to a female pc and alistair for this to work.

akka is right, alistair is so far removed from her method of thought that she could not understand his willingness to sacrifice himself rather than take the option to bed her. she could not comprehend this line of reasoning as she stands in the story and as she is presented in general.
until he refused so strongly, she would assume all the way that he would bed her anyway to save his life. bare in mind this is TOTALLY anathema to the only philosophy she has ever seen, encountered or learnt until she meets the wardens. the ONLY one.

[Sylixe]

The Angry One wrote...

Her morality shouldn't preclude helping people when it's convenient.
If she doesn't have the capacity to think beyond "EW! I am helping people." to "Hm, doing this now will help ME later" then she's an idiot, plain and simple.

Uhm..she lived in the wilds all of her life while being hunted by other humans that wanted her dead for being herself.  I think you might be a little jaded toward society after that as well. 

That being said i played a game through being the knight in shining armor and i got her to 100% approval.

[tmp7704]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Doesn't he say he should be the one to deliver the blow when Riordan tells you that a Gray Warden has to do it?

I didn't play with him that far so don't know; but my point was rather even if he does claim at this point that he's going to be one who delivers the final blow, it's just stuff he says. So it comes down to whether you trust his word or not enough to gamble your life on it... and for all you know he has no problem lying about things and/or betraying people. He's hardly better than Morrigan in this regard so if one decides to turn down Morrigan's offer because they trust Loghain to stay true to his word... that isn't really any less naive than just trust Morrigan herself

Modifié par tmp7704, 01 décembre 2009 - 01:14 .

[Driveninhifi]

I'm not sure why everyone thinks Morrigan is totally on top of her plan. She may think she's a good manipulator, but how good can she be, really? She's intelligent, cynical and attractive and that can go pretty far. But she's never interacted with people for a prolonged period of time and she doesn't know much about the world. It seems to me that she's really in over her head - of course, she would never admit or show that since she is terrified of appearing weak.

Contrast that with Leliana, who was a professional seductress and assassin in the nastiest royal court we know about. I would have liked to see Leliana in action for comparison, though it is kind of funny that she ends up being the trustworthy and open romance (it would make more sense for her to manipulate the PC, given her skillset).

[tmp7704]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Contrast that with Leliana, who was a professional seductress and assassin in the nastiest royal court we know about. I would have liked to see Leliana in action for comparison

You can easily get your wish -- just pick them both to come to your rescue in Fort Dakon sequence (together) The difference between how they handle getting themselves through is absolutely hillarious and yes, it shows very well just how much of Morrigan's claims about being skilled manipulator is just her ego talking...

Modifié par tmp7704, 01 décembre 2009 - 01:48 .

[Driveninhifi]

Cool! I'll give that a try on my next playthrough, thanks.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Ya know, I actually wondered about this a lot myself. Even beforehand, I was constantly getting paid with items and gold for helping people out. Seriously, I was getting PAID to be nice. Yet she would lose approval. Did she not manipulate that guard and acted nice to get that other guy tossed?



As for the Redcliff incident, I really wanted an option to point out her flawed logic in whining. The Arl is a powerful man and Bann Teagan is a powerful man. Helping a few rubes to get some good graces before storming the castle seemed like a good idea to me.



And for those babbling about how it isn't in her character to give a damn, what about Sten? What about Jowan? Hell, you lose approval if you kill Kitty in a betrayal move that is nothing but NET GAIN to get a golem, a belt, a helm, and some silver.



So lemme get this straight. She wants mercy for murderers who will **** at you, blood mages who have a reputation for turning on people, and wants you to be a honest dealer with demons but the Absentee Father Figure in the sky better help you if you dare help anybody who might actually be grateful and pay you for your aid, because Princess Morrigan won't be pleased.



Ya, this makes perfect sense. In Bizarro World... I like Morrigan once I get past all her near criminal stupid moments in the game and actually see a person in there but wow... Just wow.



/rant...

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Driveninhifi wrote...

I'm not sure why everyone thinks Morrigan is totally on top of her plan. She may think she's a good manipulator, but how good can she be, really? She's intelligent, cynical and attractive and that can go pretty far. But she's never interacted with people for a prolonged period of time and she doesn't know much about the world. It seems to me that she's really in over her head - of course, she would never admit or show that since she is terrified of appearing weak.
Contrast that with Leliana, who was a professional seductress and assassin in the nastiest royal court we know about. I would have liked to see Leliana in action for comparison, though it is kind of funny that she ends up being the trustworthy and open romance (it would make more sense for her to manipulate the PC, given her skillset).

This is actually the argument that I like. Morrigan basically has more bravado than brains. That I can accept.

[MassEffect762]

Meh. Until the DEVS fill us in on their cash cow we can't put a dot at the end.

She's this and that yet is not but wants you to believe but not take seriously, confusing?

I take this as the DEVS leaving themselves PLENTY of space with her character.

Will power and the survival instinct push her over the edge? Will she seek your aid against Flemeth? Just speculation but we all more or less have a good if vague idea of where her character is going.

A) Enemy (SO MANY options)
Damsel in Distress (unlikely but that ring does serve a purpose, no?)

Modifié par MassEffect762, 01 décembre 2009 - 03:12 .

[RedShft]

Morrigan actually makes a lot of sense. A lack of understanding on your part does not make this false.

[MassEffect762]

RedShft: Funny, assuming I don't understand Morrigan. Spare me the arrogance.

Perhaps I didn't make sense to you. Reading comprehension is varied from one mind to another.

Only thing I don't know is where her character goes from here.

Modifié par MassEffect762, 01 décembre 2009 - 05:59 .

[Fishy]

The Angry One wrote...

As for Teagan being stupid in not helping you get to the castle first; he wants to save the village. Why should he be inclined to help you if you won't help him?
Yeah yeah, help Eamon. But again, why should he trust that you're going to help Eamon and not just go in to finish the job if you won't take one day out of your precious time to help Redcliffe?

The good Teagan want to risk the life of the last 2 remaining gray Warden who're trying to make an armies to save the entire country/world to save his pathethic village.He risk actually all of Ferelden for his stupid village and the handfull of remaining peasant left.

It's clear that your chance of success to save the village's very Tiny .They have almost no soldier and most of the milicia are peasant with no decent equipment and no strategic position.

It's not only Morrigan who's against it but STEN also ... It's a Waste of time to save them ... You're here to kill the Darkspawn and archdemon .. No to slain some undead so some peasant can see the light tommorow .

If you leave the village.The village's attacked and most of the peasant die .. That it..
The village will be destroyed anyway by the darkspawn later in the game.it's a waste of time to save 20 peasant at the cost of losing your life/time .. which 's more precious.

[Original182]

Yes right now Morrigan seems to be contradictory at times. The devs didn't write her properly. People have already joked about "Morrigan disapproves" with the gif, which I assume is because she just randomly disapproves.

Currently I have Shale, Sten and Morrigan, and I can almost understand Shale and Sten.

Sten I can see is all about duty. He hates magic.

Shale is all logic and is amoral.
If you help the Andraste cult, it means more power gained, so he approves. The alternative is killing them, and gaining nothing except the ashes.
He asks why stop to talk to werewolves, when we've been clearing them till near the end. What is a little bit more to clear?

But Morrigan seems to be written just to be the opposite of Leliana, and nothing more.
She spends the whole game being anti-Chantry, yet she has no qualms about being friends with the Andraste cult?
She made a short statement about how it's better for the Dalish to live free rather than caged up, and all of a sudden she has no problem with siding with the werewolves to kill them?

Modifié par Original182, 01 décembre 2009 - 06:41 .

[kormesios]

I was going to post this separately at some point, but I'll bury it here for now. Maybe I'll post again later.



Anyway: Barring the ending, Morrigan is probably one of the best designed unsympathetic characters I've seen in a video game. Almost everything 'evil' she says and does traces back to one trait--a complete lack of empathy. She simply can't do what most children can and put herself in anyone else's shoes.



There's not any real malice. She likes some people well enough. But she doesn't understand why Teagan (or Eamon) might care what happens to the villagers, or why it would influence them to act on your behalf. Or why Alistair might care about a sister. Or why the Warden might want to help her.



Why well designed? Because the trait is explained by the backstory as well as carried into some more surprising moments. Raised by a crazy witch, she spent more time with animals than with other humans. But she knew she wasn't an animal, so she never identified with them, either. The Templar-hunting 'game' works into this as well.



Then the surprising moments when she acts almost human--my favorite is with the golems, where the rather simple question "How would you like it if I turned you into a golem?" actually catches her off-guard. She simply hasn't thought of that. But then there are also two other moments of uncharacteristic 'mercy', with Jowan and Sten, the two characters who are persecuted by the Chantry--the one thing she can identify with. (And since she can't identify with their victims, it makes it all the more simple for her.)



Yeah, so I quite respected the writing behind her character. Obviously some people didn't, but it fit quite well together for me.

[Lughsan35]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Lughsan35 wrote...

For the most part she is horribly conflicted.

She and her mother have a plan for you two young templars...that plan as she later states, "Didn't account for me developing any feelings for you whatsoever,  I am having a hard time with this notion of 'friendship' and I have had a hard time seeing the value in other people at all, until you."



YOU are the Fly in her ointment.  YOU are disrupting her plans by showing her what compassion is, how people can be naughty or nice together...

Of Course she disapproves of everything you do...you are challenging her worldview.  To put it another way, your influence on her is much like convincing a ******-phobe that same sex encounters are enjoyable and fun and worthwhile....much of that time will be spent with said ******-phobe disagreeing with the ******...but in the end...

See?

What I see is that she's supposed to lay with either you or Alistair, she's supposed to be very good at manipulation, and she ends up antagonizing him and making her an unbearable b*tch for you.
Don't you see a logic problem here ?

And I'd like to remind you : not everyone romance her. Not only should she play coy and appreciative if she wants to be on your good side (if she had a positive IQ), but she has no reason to be all confused about you in the countless cases you do not care for her.

She's simply being either completely stupid or completely inconsistent (or both).

She's never had a friend before which leads to her being completely inconsistent as that friendship butts up against what she and her mother have set out to do...

She doesn't need to be on your good side.  Especially if she just wants you to **** her for conception purposes.

Plenty of reason to be confused about caring about this person who shouldn't matter to her at all...yet does.