885 réponses à ce sujet

[Malificis]

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...
Morrigan is chaotic stupid, no two ways about it. That or she was just incredibly poorly written.

The pure amount of topics discussing Morrigan says you're VERY wrong about that.

I didn't say her romance was, but she as a character is when dealing with situations other than the Grey Warden.

Lol no. Best written character in DA you just don't look past the first level of character portrayal -,-

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Morrigan is not chaotic neutral by any stretch of the word. Zevran is a better example of that particular alignment. Morrigan, would wither be neutral or chaotic evil.



Chaotic neutral is more about personal freedom with little real ambition to help or hurt others. Zevran isn't really bothered by alot of things you do, unless something about it hits a very personal note with him. If you want to save puppies, fine, he's cool, if you want to dorwn them, fine, suit yourself. he's not bothered either way.



Morrigan, however, gets quite offended by just about any selfless or compassionate act you perform. She approves of cold blooded pragmatism and seeking out personal power and advancement over anything else, at the expense of others she considers weaker or wastes of space. She only approves of peaceful resolution/cooperation when the enemy is more powerful and resourceful than you or herself, because such an alliance is not only useful, but necessary for survival.



Thus, she would be classed more likely as evil. Evil is not as simple and black and white. Just because you're evil doesn't mean you run around with a knife and setting babies on fire and kicking old ladies for the hell of it. An evil purson can live their life without shedding a single drop of blood, yet still be very evil because they purposely manipulate, control, and use people to further their own ends with little problem doing so.



Thus, if anything, I think Morrigan was written extremely well, from the point that she is an excellent example of how complex an evil person truly is. She is no cackling idiot with plans of world domination and massive power. She is a very real person whose personality is evil, and is very good at portraying it.



I do not like her because of that, because she is how she is. I've known people like that, and the way she is written and voiced, she is VERY real, and thus, is capable of striking a nerve.



So, she is a well written character we can truly enjoy hating.

[JaegerBane]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Morrigan is not chaotic neutral by any stretch of the word. Zevran is a better example of that particular alignment. Morrigan, would wither be neutral or chaotic evil.

I definitely think Chaotic Evil is would be her alignment were this D&D. The fact that she's has apparently more concerned about mayhem rather than actually doing something useful, irrespective of whether it is for herself or the greater good, is pretty much proof of that.

[Kohaku]

JaegerBane wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Morrigan is not chaotic neutral by any stretch of the word. Zevran is a better example of that particular alignment. Morrigan, would wither be neutral or chaotic evil.

I definitely think Chaotic Evil is would be her alignment were this D&D. The fact that she's has apparently more concerned about mayhem rather than actually doing something useful, irrespective of whether it is for herself or the greater good, is pretty much proof of that.

Second. I know she's out for her own goals but come on girl. Everything can't be that bad to disaprove of it.

[Imryll]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

As I explained in another topic - you're risking the lives of the last two Gray Wardens to save a handful of villagers. So, let's say the help of the Wardens makes a difference and the battle is won, but they both fall - which is a possible scenario for all that we know. What happens? The mentioned villagers get to live some months more, but after that all the Ferelden is devastated by the horde of darkspawn, since there are no more Wardens here and Alister already told you that foreign Wardens will come eventually, but it would be too late to save the country. Nice choice, really. If it was not a video game, would you take that risk? Do you think you have the right to risk THAT much?

Fine.  I'll ask Sten to lead a party in order to cement relations with Redcliffe while Zev and I snuggle back at camp. Of course, at this point in the game neither remaining Warden knows that a Warden is actually necessary to kill an Archdemon, so the risk would seem somewhat smaller than it would if they were more knowledgeable.

[Layn]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Thus, if anything, I think Morrigan was written extremely well, from the point that she is an excellent example of how complex an evil person truly is. She is no cackling idiot with plans of world domination and massive power. She is a very real person whose personality is evil, and is very good at portraying it.

is she evil? she never did anything bad, as far as i remember. She just didn't want to spend time doing small acts of good that aren't really needed for the partys goal.

[REH1967]

Take her reaction when your character decides to intervene with the merchant and the angry Priestess in Lothering. From my char's PoV, I just wanted access to the Merchant, after all that was one of the reasons for even stopping in the town. My character gets the Merchant to be somewhat more reasonable but does not support the mob's demands...



It was basically a compromise. Morrigan makes a snide remark and I lose 5 approval.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Crrash wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Thus, if anything, I think Morrigan was written extremely well, from the point that she is an excellent example of how complex an evil person truly is. She is no cackling idiot with plans of world domination and massive power. She is a very real person whose personality is evil, and is very good at portraying it.

is she evil? she never did anything bad, as far as i remember. She just didn't want to spend time doing small acts of good that aren't really needed for the partys goal.

Talk to her. She can't "do" anything per say, since you are the character in control. It's what makes her happy and what pisses her off. You get your answer.

there are points when doing "acts of good" or at least, acts that are not harmful, will certainly progress your goals. Guess what. She disapproves.   

Not to mention her main purpose for helping you out was, in the end, suckering a Warden into fathering god/demon baby. Thus, with that as her main goal in mind, it's not so much that doing small acts of good interfere with "the party's quest" but delay her own personal agenda. Sure, if you're a male, she might end up with a few regrets as she wanders the wilds, but generally, her own personal agenda to produce the old god outweighs any feelings for you, nor does it stop her from knowingly hurting you.

Her evil lies in the fact that she promote and encourages such things, and often, her suggestions, from the RPG standpoint, would realkly not benefit you at all. Example: mage's tower. She starts going off about how all the mages should be killed and slaughtered for submitting to Chantry rule, when as far as you know, you desperately need the support of the Circle mages to help you defeat the blight. So, you try to be reasonable, explain things, suggest a little empathy and pragmatism, she still scoffs. She simply wants to see the mages all die because she sees them all as weak and pathetic living under the Chantry. A mentality that is reflective of evil and chaos. She wants to see people suffer because she does not like them, even though she knows nothing of them.

Anvil of the Void: Agree to destroy the anvil, massive hissy fit. Only when you threaten her does she back down. Zevran, true to CN alignment, will at first think saving the anvil is a great idea, but when you explain to him that it pretty much enslaves and destroys people for the use of others, he will conceed your point. Morrigan, on the other hand, only does so through threats, because she knows you to be more powerful than she.

If it does not directly benefit Morrigan, or fit into her own notions of life or her own ambitions, she will get very angry. She does not care who or what gets hurt by her actions or suggestions, so long as her ends are achieved. That, in itself, is very evil.

[Lord Abrasion]

Morrigan quickly struck me as someone who is a whiny **** just for the sake of being a whiny ****, hence I never have her in my party any longer than I have to. As soon as I've picked up Leliana, she gets the 4th slot and Morrigan spends the rest of the game in the camp. I'm even tempted to strip her, tell her to sod off  and sell her gear for some cash as soon as I've done her quests.

[robertthebard]

Recidiva wrote...

I think she is perfectly aware people like the Redcliffe villagers or the mages in the tower aren't trying to trick you into thinking they're weaker they really are, but they are really in situation that overwhelms them. There's difference between deception and actually being weak, and with her experience at deception she's pretty good at telling one from the other.

She's a good character.  She's just a pain in the ass to drag through the game, complaining the whole way unless you take the easiest way out. 
I understand her siding with wiping out the mages, actually.  That one I get. 
I don't understand why she gets angry if you stop someone from profiteering, offer to save the Blacksmith's daughter or lots of other game choices that are really intended not to just "save someone" but in general...save and preserve human life.  AND show that you're capable of trust, mercy and having someone else's interests other than your own always in mind.  Grey Wardens are supposed to save humanity as a whole, what's the actual harm in saving a few individual humans?  I don't agree with her viewpoint that "all these cretins would do it if they could" or falling back on "survival of the fittest" as if it were always a matter of strength.  There's power in acts of grace, and being rich enough and strong enough to do more than expected is part of building a reputation and loyalty.  The entire point of the game, really.
Being insanely petty enough to resent giving five gold to two recently orphaned kids is ridiculous.

All of this is really quite simple to see, and Sten would disagree with the choices as well, for the same reasons.  If they are too weak to help themselves, they aren't worth saving anyway, as they won't be any help later on.  What leads me to this conclusion about Sten?  Take him to the mage tower when you first go.  There's an interesting encounter there that will give you some insight into this.

It's also amazing to note that the same qualities that make Morrigan bad, make other chars seem good.  Alistair's self absorbtion is to be pitied, but it's to be condemned in Morrigan.  I know, "but Alistair isn't self absorbed", except that he really is.  Female Human Noble anyone?  "Oh, I forgot that your whole family was killed by Arl Howe, and that you barely escaped with your life, but I have to ask, how is that worse than becoming a Templar"...Wait, I know, but he's the son of royalty...ah, ok, yeah, that perfectly justifies applying a double standard to him over Morrigan, for the same character flaws.  I read these topics as "I don't understand the character, so the character is stupid".  I don't understand Trigonometry, frankly, I'm not even sure I spelled it right, so does that mean that trig is stupid?

[Vicious]

You can bring her along to the Anvil of the Void and choose to destroy it. She'll freak out, to which you can threaten to turn her into a Golem first. Shuts the b*tch up.

[Layn]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Example: mage's tower. She starts going off about how all the mages should be killed and slaughtered for submitting to Chantry rule, when as far as you know, you desperately need the support of the Circle mages to help you defeat the blight. So, you try to be reasonable, explain things, suggest a little empathy and pragmatism, she still scoffs. She simply wants to see the mages all die because she sees them all as weak and pathetic living under the Chantry. A mentality that is reflective of evil and chaos. She wants to see people suffer because she does not like them, even though she knows nothing of them.

mage tower is probably one ofthe worst examples to show your point.
Alistair immediately says even before morrigan, that the best thing is to let the templars purge the tower. Did Alistair become evil for a second or could it be that it really seemed like a lost cause?
And i don't know why exactly, i had the possibility of telling Morrigan "what if things were different and you were one of them?" and then she admits you've got a point and she helps without disapproving

[robertthebard]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Crrash wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Thus, if anything, I think Morrigan was written extremely well, from the point that she is an excellent example of how complex an evil person truly is. She is no cackling idiot with plans of world domination and massive power. She is a very real person whose personality is evil, and is very good at portraying it.

is she evil? she never did anything bad, as far as i remember. She just didn't want to spend time doing small acts of good that aren't really needed for the partys goal.

Talk to her. She can't "do" anything per say, since you are the character in control. It's what makes her happy and what pisses her off. You get your answer.

there are points when doing "acts of good" or at least, acts that are not harmful, will certainly progress your goals. Guess what. She disapproves.   

Not to mention her main purpose for helping you out was, in the end, suckering a Warden into fathering god/demon baby. Thus, with that as her main goal in mind, it's not so much that doing small acts of good interfere with "the party's quest" but delay her own personal agenda. Sure, if you're a male, she might end up with a few regrets as she wanders the wilds, but generally, her own personal agenda to produce the old god outweighs any feelings for you, nor does it stop her from knowingly hurting you.

How?  By leaving?  Did I miss the option where she burns down Redcliffe Castle and kills all within if you refuse?

Her evil lies in the fact that she promote and encourages such things, and often, her suggestions, from the RPG standpoint, would realkly not benefit you at all. Example: mage's tower. She starts going off about how all the mages should be killed and slaughtered for submitting to Chantry rule, when as far as you know, you desperately need the support of the Circle mages to help you defeat the blight. So, you try to be reasonable, explain things, suggest a little empathy and pragmatism, she still scoffs. She simply wants to see the mages all die because she sees them all as weak and pathetic living under the Chantry. A mentality that is reflective of evil and chaos. She wants to see people suffer because she does not like them, even though she knows nothing of them.

Actually, at this point, you have Gregoir promising you a full army of Templars.  So technically, no, you don't need the army of mages.  The far easier thing to do would be to sweep the tower, and take the Templar army, at least, at face value.

Anvil of the Void: Agree to destroy the anvil, massive hissy fit. Only when you threaten her does she back down. Zevran, true to CN alignment, will at first think saving the anvil is a great idea, but when you explain to him that it pretty much enslaves and destroys people for the use of others, he will conceed your point. Morrigan, on the other hand, only does so through threats, because she knows you to be more powerful than she.

So she's evil for thinking that having an army of golems would increase your chance of success?  After all, this is what's offered when you initially get the choice.  I have yet to not break the anvil, and I have yet gotten more than a -1 approval, since the threat entails simply asking her if she'd like to be a golem.  The end of that little dialog is "I might, if I was only looking for power".  That's a pretty extreme threat.

If it does not directly benefit Morrigan, or fit into her own notions of life or her own ambitions, she will get very angry. She does not care who or what gets hurt by her actions or suggestions, so long as her ends are achieved. That, in itself, is very evil.

Again with the double standards.  How many posts do you have in this thread trying to convince people that Morrigan is a heartless worm that should be turned into the Templars the first chance you get?  You may very well post over and over, and may even reply to this post trying to show me how wrong I am, just so you can further your own agenda.  You're an evil git.

Modifié par robertthebard, 17 décembre 2009 - 07:02 .

[Mnemnosyne]

robertthebard wrote...

Actually, at this point, you have Gregoir promising you a full army of Templars.  So technically, no, you don't need the army of mages.  The far easier thing to do would be to sweep the tower, and take the Templar army, at least, at face value.

As Alistair says, against a normal person (or the average Darkspawn) a templar is just a guy in a metal suit.  As opposed to a mage, who, y'know, has fireballs and lightning and healing magic to keep guys in metal suits alive.  I think it's pretty clear that mages are better allies than templars.

Not to mention there's the logic that, if you take the mages, the templars will be forced to come along with them to 'keep an eye on them' and thus you get both mages and templars.  This is a pretty reasonable conclusion to come to, not some leap of logic that requires metagame knowledge, either.  Wherever mages go, you know the templars are gonna send people too.

[robertthebard]

Koyasha wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Actually, at this point, you have Gregoir promising you a full army of Templars.  So technically, no, you don't need the army of mages.  The far easier thing to do would be to sweep the tower, and take the Templar army, at least, at face value.

As Alistair says, against a normal person (or the average Darkspawn) a templar is just a guy in a metal suit.  As opposed to a mage, who, y'know, has fireballs and lightning and healing magic to keep guys in metal suits alive.  I think it's pretty clear that mages are better allies than templars.

Not to mention there's the logic that, if you take the mages, the templars will be forced to come along with them to 'keep an eye on them' and thus you get both mages and templars.  This is a pretty reasonable conclusion to come to, not some leap of logic that requires metagame knowledge, either.  Wherever mages go, you know the templars are gonna send people too.

Unless I was playing this from the mage Origin, I wouldn't really know that.  I know what happened at Ostagar, for sure, but as a city elf, or especially as a dwarf or Dalish, I would have no idea if that was normal, or a special case.  As was also mentioned, Alistair will also suggest that cleansing the tower may be the best bet, and puts forward that the mages may all be dead.  Finding Wynne et al does not do anything to dismiss that out of hand, as you find her early, and on the first floor.  Neither you, nor Wynne know what has transpired in the rest of the tower.

From metagme now, you know that you don't get supervisor Templars, and the mages won't be healing you.  Granted, this is metagaming, and at the time you're faced with this decision you don't really know, and may not know that mages can heal, other than metagaming, since Morrigan may not have any healing capabilities, and tells you in Flemeth's hut that she's no healer.

[T0paze]

Judging from her reactions in the game, she doesn't leave the impression of a particularly clever person. Or, if I could say so, intelligently clever. Anora, for example, is vastly superior when it comes to political manipulation, lying and trickery. Morrigan appears to have learned some wisdom from her mother (Flemeth, anyway) and some survival skills on her own, but otherwise she seems rough, direct and even a bit naive. I don't even remember her lying, and her manipulative skills seem to be limited to witholding information. She's not chaotic stupid, but she's no sage, either.

As for the situation in Redcliffe, I think she simply lacks strategic vision. I mean to have some centuries-old treaties is a good thing, of course, but by the start of the game the status of the PC and Alistair (the only Grey Wardens left in Ferelden) in the political arena of Ferelden is far from stable. Basically, they're outcasts trying to get some allies to 1) defeat Loghain and 2) end the Blight. Their success is supposed to depend entirely on their relations with the leaders of the factions they encounter. And you don't exactly win friends and influence people by completely ignoring their needs and only demanding their support. So, some assistance here and there is in order. Morrigan seems unable to realize that.

Modifié par T0paze, 17 décembre 2009 - 08:20 .

[eschilde]

robertthebard wrote...

Not to mention there's the logic that, if you take the mages, the templars will be forced to come along with them to 'keep an eye on them' and thus you get both mages and templars.  This is a pretty reasonable conclusion to come to, not some leap of logic that requires metagame knowledge, either.  Wherever mages go, you know the templars are gonna send people too.

Unless I was playing this from the mage Origin, I wouldn't really know that.  I know what happened at Ostagar, for sure, but as a city elf, or especially as a dwarf or Dalish, I would have no idea if that was normal, or a special case.  As was also mentioned, Alistair will also suggest that cleansing the tower may be the best bet, and puts forward that the mages may all be dead.  Finding Wynne et al does not do anything to dismiss that out of hand, as you find her early, and on the first floor.  Neither you, nor Wynne know what has transpired in the rest of the tower.

Well, the templar-following-mages thing is something that both Morrigan and Alistair, as well as NPC's (like the templar guy at Lothering) talk about. The fact that templars are there to watch mages is something that is discussed pretty early on. You could argue that point either way, I guess. 

I was confused by what Gregoir says my first time through. I thought he was promising me a combined army of mages and templars. It seems kind of silly that at the end of the game, if you save the mages, you can't have both. I went "Wuh?" when he was like, "We're gonna be too busy watching over the 12 mages that are left to come fight the darkspawn." /offtopic

T0paze wrote...
As for the situation in Redcliffe, I think she simply lacks strategic vision.

Whether she's chaotic neutral or evil, it sounds like chaotic stupid to me >.>

Modifié par eschilde, 17 décembre 2009 - 08:20 .

[Creature 1]

robertthebard wrote...
All of this is really quite simple to see, and Sten would disagree with the choices as well, for the same reasons.  If they are too weak to help themselves, they aren't worth saving anyway, as they won't be any help later on.

This isn't true.  Throw my mage character in a room with a bunch of genlock and hurlock grunts and she will be the only one walking ou the door.  Throw her in a room with a bunch of mages and, well, probably no one will walk out the door because the AI is stupid about AoE attacks. . .  But if they weren't they would mana clash/crushing prison/petrify/paralyze her and she would be dead in a split second.  The fact that the mages weren't doing too well against the abominations does not mean that they wouldn't be useful against darkspawn hordes.  Yes, Morrigan was stupid not to see this.  They should put "Morrigan, you're being stupid again" as a possible response to all of her objections to various choices you make. 

[Dark83]

robertthebard wrote...

Unless I was playing this from the mage Origin, I wouldn't really know that.  I know what happened at Ostagar, for sure, but as a city elf, or especially as a dwarf or Dalish, I would have no idea if that was normal, or a special case.

You mean if you're roleplaying a stupid character? Just chatting with Alistair and Morrigan in Lothering tells you all about the role of the Templars and the treatment of apostates and maleficarium. <_<

[FlintlockJazz]

robertthebard wrote...

Neither you, nor Wynne know what has transpired in the rest of the tower.

Exactly, so why would you commit to killing all the mages based on that?  And Morrigan's justification for killing the mages isn't expediency but because she personally doesn't like them, she tells you that when she demands that you kill them all, therefore she is a two-faced git since she is claiming that she doesn't want to help Redcliffe because it gets in the way of the main mission yet refuses to try gaining potential mage allies because she 'doesn't like them'.  Simple.

Zevran is a more intriguing character, as he seems to be more ambiguous.  Morrigan, well...

[eschilde]

Dark83 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Unless I was playing this from the mage Origin, I wouldn't really know that.  I know what happened at Ostagar, for sure, but as a city elf, or especially as a dwarf or Dalish, I would have no idea if that was normal, or a special case.

You mean if you're roleplaying a stupid character? Just chatting with Alistair and Morrigan in Lothering tells you all about the role of the Templars and the treatment of apostates and maleficarium. <_<

(It's the "I skip a lot of cut scenes" way >.>)

[Lotion Soronarr]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...
P.S. Morrigan is Chaotic Neutral.

Morrigna is friggin evil.

[FlintlockJazz]

robertthebard wrote...

All of this is really quite simple to see, and Sten would disagree with the choices as well, for the same reasons.  If they are too weak to help themselves, they aren't worth saving anyway, as they won't be any help later on.  What leads me to this conclusion about Sten?  Take him to the mage tower when you first go.  There's an interesting encounter there that will give you some insight into this.

As Sten would say, 'No'.  You can convince Sten of the need to help Redcliffe for one, so he isn't so stupid.  Also, if Morrigan doesn't want to help the mages because they are 'weak', then she shouldn't have wanted to help Jowan or Sten, since both of them not only failed to avoid being captured but even gave up on self-preservation (Sten especially) while Wynne proves a greater aptitude for survival by holding off the Abominations and yet does Morrigan acknowledge that?  Nooooooooo!   She's too busy thinking about how awesome she is for not being a Circle Mage (only because her mother is Flemeth and protected her from being taken away, whom she so desperately tries to emulate but fails due to her being Chaotic Stupid whereas Flemeth is at least Chaotic Evil Genius).

Also, a side point about Sten, he doesn't want to kill the mages because he thinks they aren't worth saving, if you actually talked to him after he makes a certain mcomment you will learn it's a whole Qunari thing against mages (they hate them) and therefore is as guilty as Morrigan in this case.

[Dark83]

Shale wants to kill the mages too, and it's hilarious when you talk to him. I think there's an Insight dialog option where you say something like "Don't you just have a grudge against mages in general?" and Shale responds "No! Well, maybe. Ok, you're right, fine."

[robertthebard]

Creature 1 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
All of this is really quite simple to see, and Sten would disagree with the choices as well, for the same reasons.  If they are too weak to help themselves, they aren't worth saving anyway, as they won't be any help later on.

This isn't true.  Throw my mage character in a room with a bunch of genlock and hurlock grunts and she will be the only one walking ou the door.  Throw her in a room with a bunch of mages and, well, probably no one will walk out the door because the AI is stupid about AoE attacks. . .  But if they weren't they would mana clash/crushing prison/petrify/paralyze her and she would be dead in a split second.  The fact that the mages weren't doing too well against the abominations does not mean that they wouldn't be useful against darkspawn hordes.  Yes, Morrigan was stupid not to see this.  They should put "Morrigan, you're being stupid again" as a possible response to all of her objections to various choices you make. 

So what happens when you throw that mage into a room full of Emissaries?  Using Grunts as your example is pointless, since I got the Whirling Dervish achievement killing them with Whirlwind, all one hit kills.  Hooray for your mage that can walk out of a room where one Fireball will kill everyone in it?  Really good example there.  The point being, Sten will view them as too weak to help themselves, which means they are too weak to be of use stopping the blight.  If they are unable to save themselves, how are they supposed to be of any help later on?  To elaborate a bit, if you help the templar that is held by the Desire Demon in the tower, you take a hit on your approval.  So tell me, since he says he should have to help himself during the cutscene, what I should believe he believes?